250 WHP Supernatural 3.4 Build
Topic started by: La fiera, Date: 10-07-2017 11:04 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/140469.html


La fiera MSG #1, 10-07-2017 11:04 PM
     
This build is dedicated to those that don't give up on the unconventional builds like keeping the iron heads instead of
swapping for the aluminum heads, or discarding the 2.8/3.1/3.4 pushrod engines to install a SBC, 3800SC, 4.9 V8 or 3.4 DOHC
or whatever other engine but the original engine type.
I have no problem with the engines mentioned above, but for me personally; I want to prove to
myself that with some ingenuity, time and some resources I can build an engine that will perform in my Time Trial Duntov Fiero.
The goal is 250WHP out of a Naturally Aspirated 3.4 iron head engine with explosive mid range and killer top end.
This will be on a stock bottom end, head work, custom cam and Intake and a stand alone ECU.
Note: Some items information will not be disclosed.
The weight goal with the engine must be below 2200lbls
to have a competitive power to weight ratio.

So, here it goes:


Spadesluck MSG #2, 10-07-2017 11:28 PM
      Watching......

BillS (wspohn4@aol.com) MSG #3, 10-08-2017 12:30 PM
      This is kind of like watching a build of a Ford V8-60 flathead where one just asks "Why?"

La fiera MSG #4, 10-08-2017 01:30 PM
      After looking with what I had to work with it, it was obvious that my 250WHP @ 6000RPM+ goal was impossible with
factory items. Specially the stock intake and exhaust manifold, camshaft, TB, "Y" pipe and exhaust pipe diameter.
Some members have past the 200+WHP succesfully with stock components but those ponies where at low RPM, and the torque was
produced at very low RPM. Good combination for the street, but not for the road course where the engine
will spend most of its time between 3500 to 6800RPM. So, we had to come up with a system to put the power in that
RPM range but it was also important "how" that power was delivered withing that RPM window, it had to be EXPLOSIVE....!
With that idea the Supernatural concept was born!
Intake Manifold:
Size and shape of plenum and runners, injectors location, and TB size and style
was designed to the RPM window in mind.

Heads
Port work and valve size was designed to match the intake manifold, exhaust header and Y pipe flow capabilities.

Camshaft, Lifters & Springs
The most critical parts of the package. Without a camshaft to complement the intake and head combo there is
no sense in installing the head and intake with the cams and springs available over the counter.
A mechanical cam style was chosen over the hydraulic flat tapped and hydraulic roller to get the explosiveness and
top end power capabilities we were looking for. Also the mechanical cam's lash can be adjusted to make the cam
smaller or bigger and that is a plus to match the cam to the track.
The mechanical lifters are lighter than the hydraulics and the ones we used have a little pin whole to provide
the cam lobes with pressurized oil to lube and cool the lobes at the same time.
Aggressive cam profiles call for very aggressive spring rates and the available springs for the V6 iron heads couldn't be
used in our package without having serious consequences. So the heads were modified to take advantage of the plethora
of racing springs and narrow full aluminum roller rockers available for the SBC V8.


Supernatural Top End Package



Next we will compare with pictures some stock vs Supernatural items. STAY TUNNED!!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-08-2017).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #5, 10-08-2017 01:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BillS:

This is kind of like watching a build of a Ford V8-60 flathead where one just asks "Why?"

I'm sure the non-Fiero people look at us building up Fieros in much the same way.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-08-2017).]

Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #6, 10-08-2017 09:47 PM
      The goal of 250 RWHP from a 3.4L pr engine is a very aggressive one. I've built these engines and even with a turbo have not reached this goal. You can improve the performance but the engine breathes poorly. With loads of boost like 20 psi you might reach your goal but N/A I say no way.



La fiera MSG #7, 10-08-2017 10:05 PM
      Stock VS Supernatural Intake Manifolds


Stock VS Supernatural Y Pipe

This Y pipe is being upgraded to a lighter and smoother version

Supernatural Heads



Next, lets start to put the engine together!


La fiera MSG #8, 10-08-2017 10:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
With loads of boost like 20 psi you might reach your goal but N/A I say no way.


Hello Dennis, the goal of my engine is NO TURBO, NO JUICE, 250WHP NATURALLY ASPIRATED @ 6000RPM. 3.4 PR IRON HEAD ENGINE.
I completely understand your concern in me not reaching that goal, but I'm absolutely sure I can.
So, just be patient and wait and don't ruin the expectation for the rest. Just relax Dennis!




Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #9, 10-08-2017 11:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

With loads of boost like 20 psi you might reach your goal but N/A I say no way.


The last dyno he posted was 240 RWHP. I'm sure he can find another 10 HP somewhere.

Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean he can't do it.


fieroguru MSG #10, 10-09-2017 09:34 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
The goal of 250 RWHP from a 3.4L pr engine is a very aggressive one. I've built these engines and even with a turbo have not reached this goal. You can improve the performance but the engine breathes poorly. With loads of boost like 20 psi you might reach your goal but N/A I say no way.


He is already at 240 whp on a mustang dyno, so there is clearly an opportunity to learn something from him. La fiera is shifting paradigms and that is great!



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #11, 10-09-2017 12:21 PM
      Just switching to a Dynojet and he is over 250rwhp. He was also using heavier than stock wheels. Honestly, looking at the heads, his are smoother but mine are ported a little more. That said - smoothening goes a long way in maintaining air-velocities.
Go La Fiera go!

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 10-09-2017).]

lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #12, 10-09-2017 12:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Stock VS Supernatural Intake Manifolds

[SIZE=3]

I like how each of the openings on that twin-butterfly TB is larger than the original Fiero TB.
twin-58mm vs 52mm stock and 56/57mm ported. I'm using the Firebird twin 48mm TB myself. But hey, we have different builds/goals with similar mindsets.


La fiera MSG #13, 10-09-2017 02:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Just switching to a Dynojet and he is over 250rwhp. He was also using heavier than stock wheels. Honestly, looking at the heads, his are smoother but mine are ported a little more. That said - smoothening goes a long way in maintaining air-velocities.
Go La Fiera go!



Thanks Lou!! And thanks to the rest of the crew; fieroguru and blackthree! Thanks for cheering me on

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-09-2017).]

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #14, 10-09-2017 02:40 PM
      What kind of injectors are you using? They look well targeted, shooting down low.

Do they spray in a thin pencil, with perhaps less atomization/hp, or do they spray a wide fan mist, but with the possible consequence of a larger fuel puddle, and worse response?

Are you using Enhanced Acceleration Enrichment (for non-MS folks, this means transient compensation that is based on a wall-wetting model)?

It looks like the entry of the intake runners are tapered, so even though you probably don't have trumpets hidden in the plenum, it effectively does the same thing as trumpets. I like it.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 10-09-2017).]

La fiera MSG #15, 10-09-2017 03:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

What kind of injectors are you using? They look well targeted, shooting down low.

Do they spray in a thin pencil, with perhaps less atomization/hp, or do they spray a wide fan mist, but with the possible consequence of a larger fuel puddle, and worse response?

Are you using Enhanced Acceleration Enrichment (for non-MS folks, this means transient compensation that is based on a wall-wetting model)?

It looks like the entry of the intake runners are tapered, so even though you probably don't have trumpets hidden in the plenum, it effectively does the same thing as trumpets. I like it.



The injectors pattern are like a cone more than a fan and their location does both things, atomize better and at the same time they give me
the Wall-Wetting effect. But then I learn I can program the Wall-Wetting in the MS!!
You are also right about the runner shape, they act like a set of trumpets but tuned to take advantage of the induction pressure waves at mid to top end,
So technically is a Tuned Port Tunnel Ram!
I also made the runners SQUARE instead of ROUND to get as much volume and flow as possible.
And Lou Dias hit it on the nail; the head ports are matched to the intake to keep the flow velocity at high RPM\, If I would've made them bigger
the flow would slow and killed the performance.

And I'm glad you like it!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-09-2017).]

Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #16, 10-09-2017 05:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


Hello Dennis, the goal of my engine is NO TURBO, NO JUICE, 250WHP NATURALLY ASPIRATED @ 6000RPM. 3.4 PR IRON HEAD ENGINE.
I completely understand your concern in me not reaching that goal, but I'm absolutely sure I can.
So, just be patient and wait and don't ruin the expectation for the rest. Just relax Dennis!



I am relaxed and certainly wishing you all the best on reaching your goal. Just believe that it will be an expensive build with a difficult platform on which to reach that goal. Not saying that it can't be done .



La fiera MSG #17, 10-09-2017 08:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


I am relaxed and certainly wishing you all the best on reaching your goal. Just believe that it will be an expensive build with a difficult platform on which to reach that goal. Not saying that it can't be done .



Well thank you Dennis! For me this is a labor of love and I have more time than money invested in the motor. I've spend $2870 on the motor.
That includes all the parts and the machining, No R&D and no labor time.
I don't think we can put a price on the satisfaction we get when we achieve a goal!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-09-2017).]

La fiera MSG #18, 10-10-2017 11:22 PM
     

Block painted after being received from machine shop and ready for assembly!


Before installing the crank I did some mods to improve oiling at the rods and mains.
I know I could've made that mod better but I did that like a fast job.
I'm working on another crank and it will be much lighter and have much work,
it will be for this block but with a much higher HP goal, same thing; NA.



Crank dropped and ready for torque!

There's more to come, stay tuned!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-10-2017).]

Francis T (rspiderii@aol.com) MSG #19, 10-11-2017 04:04 PM
      Here's my attempt at 220+ HP @ 6 - 7+K rpm with a norm asp 2.8 engine. It's in the car waiting for me to complete the paint / body mods, get some dyno data and burn a chip.
Hopefully we'll both meet our goals!






CUSTOM VENOLA FORGED PISTONS AND WORKED RODS

[This message has been edited by Francis T (edited 10-12-2017).]

La fiera MSG #20, 10-11-2017 06:10 PM
      Looking nice Francis!! Can't wait to hear it wail!! Keep up the good work!

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #21, 10-11-2017 06:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
I'm working on another crank and it will be much lighter and have much work,
it will be for this block but with a much higher HP goal, same thing; NA.


Isn't a good crankshaft, a good crankshaft, period?

What would you do for an NA engine's crankshaft that wouldn't also be good for an engine having a power-adder?


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #22, 10-11-2017 07:06 PM
      It takes power to rev up an engine. The less mass the engine has to spin up, the more power can be delivered to the wheels.

La fiera MSG #23, 10-11-2017 09:26 PM
      I'm sorry for not being more clear PMBrunnelle, It's exactly what Blackthree described. Make it as light as possible
and being NA I can make it lighter rather than stronger. With that in mind the rods will be of a lighter material and longer
so I can get a shorter and lighter piston.
I don't know if I mentioned it yet but I'm working on a set of 3500 aluminium heads to complement that bottom end I just
mentioned and my goal for that set up is 300+ WHP.
But that is going to take a little bit of time.
First I want to use this engine on my Fiero and start doing Time Trials. I also want to make the car lighter to decrease
my power to weight ratio for the same reason, less weight = more usable power.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-11-2017).]

Francis T (rspiderii@aol.com) MSG #24, 10-12-2017 10:27 AM
      I would suggest limiting your targeted peak power to around 5k - 5.5k RPM if you have an iron crankshaft, especially with a 3.4 - which is a stroked 2.8- too much reciprocating mass.

I got lucky - cost me $110- and brought one of the last -discontinued- Eagle STEEL crankshafts, else I would not have built my 2.8 for high RPM use.
BTW Venola makes good forged pistons that are priced good.


Francis T (rspiderii@aol.com) MSG #25, 10-12-2017 05:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

The goal of 250 RWHP from a 3.4L pr engine is a very aggressive one. I've built these engines and even
with a turbo have not reached this goal. You can improve the performance but the engine breathes poorly.
With loads of boost like 20 psi you might reach your goal but N/A I say no way.


We've -trueleo racing- have seen our customer's 2.8 engines with our headers and intake manifolds make more than 210HP and those were with stock or mild cams, stock heads, stock pistons, and stock ECU chips! BTW on the flow bench with our intake the 2.8 iron heads flowed enough CFM to support 300+ HP.

It will no-doubt take a lot of dyno time and probably, more than a few chip burns to get the tuning spot-on.
That said, I don't think his or my goal HP is impossible.

NOTE: I did not state the above to get new customers, whereas do to my medical issues and my son's very successful road racing program, we no longer make products for the 2.8 - 3.4 engines.

[This message has been edited by Francis T (edited 10-12-2017).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #26, 10-12-2017 05:50 PM
      The 3.4 V6 bottom end is safe up to about 6500-7000 RPM (assuming it's in good condition). But anything beyond that is pushing your luck. Looks like Rei is going to improve the odds with lighter weight pistons and rods. That will push the RPM envelope a little higher.

Edit to add: for what it's worth, I'm going to be following in Rei's footsteps. Although I won't be taking the engine build quite as far as he is. But I also have a crazy intake manifold (from Ryan Falconer), and a "secret weapon" camshaft that Rei made for me. Plus the heads will be race ported. And I already have the Trueleo headers. Should make for a lively engine.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-12-2017).]

La fiera MSG #27, 10-12-2017 06:32 PM
      Well my redline is 7100RPM and my engine gets there pretty quick. But right now I have the rev limiter set up at 6800 for one reason,
When the engine gets to the rev limiter it cuts off fuel and spark (makes big BOOM and shoots flames!) and I can flat shift and even though I have flat shift capability in
the MegaSquirt I prefer the rev limiter method. The car just pulls like a freight train non stop in all the gears, I love my 4:10 gears with the welded diff!!

Mike, let mie know when you put that head, cam and intake combo. I can assist you with the tuning specially low to mid range with that cam, the stock timing table simply wont work. But don't worry we got you covered


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #28, 10-12-2017 06:51 PM
      Awesome!

Edit to add: Can't you select what the ECM does to limit the revs? I know with my 7730 setup, I can have it retard the spark, cut the fuel, or both. Maybe there's a setting in the MegaSquirt for that?

(PS: I prefer to use the spark retard only, because that's easier on the engine)

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-12-2017).]

La fiera MSG #29, 10-12-2017 11:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Awesome!

Edit to add: Can't you select what the ECM does to limit the revs? I know with my 7730 setup, I can have it retard the spark, cut the fuel, or both. Maybe there's a setting in the MegaSquirt for that?

(PS: I prefer to use the spark retard only, because that's easier on the engine)



Yes I can. I'ts very adjustable. I can cut spark only, fuel only or both. But I think it makes that POP and make flames because the injectors are high in the
runners and even though it cuts the fuel and spark, there is some fuel on the walls of the manifold that when digested and gone through the hot exhaust pipes
raw that fuel is at the right temperature to ignite but it can't because there is no oxygen, once it gets to the tip of the exhaust it ignites and you can see the flames and
hear it.
I also have the high rpm decel (7100 to 4500) at -0.3 timing and enriched on purpose it makes loud poping sounds and the flames can be seen from miles!!!
Its awesome!!!
I have it like that so it can help with the scavenging of the exhaust thus increasing my intake draw in also. It works pretty good and keeps my throttle response sharp.
I have stainless steel racing valves designed for that torture.
One thing I tell you, you know when you see most of the cars when they hit full throttle and all you see is black smoke? You don't see that in mine, mine burns clean and the AFR's are right on target.
But don't worry, once you are ready just let me know and I'll make a special trip!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-12-2017).]

Francis T (rspiderii@aol.com) MSG #30, 10-13-2017 12:34 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

It makes loud poping sounds and the flames can be seen from miles!!!
Its awesome!!!
I have it like that so it can help with the scavenging of the exhaust thus increasing my intake draw in also. It works pretty good and keeps my throttle response sharp.
I have stainless steel racing valves designed for that torture.
One thing I tell you, you know when you see most of the cars when they hit full throttle and all you see is black smoke? You don't see that in mine, mine burns clean and the AFR's are right on target.
But don't worry, once you are ready just let me know and I'll make a special trip!


Yup unspent fuel meeting say a hot muffer would do that. Back in my younger, more devious days before the invention of steering wheel locks, we discovered that turning the ignition off for maybe 5 seconds on say a highway and then back on would produce a nice loud boom. It could and often did explode the muffler. Yeah, we used it to scare AHs on the highways. Lol it was especially effective when going through an underpass.
To avert such you may want to cut the fuel off too.


BillS (wspohn4@aol.com) MSG #31, 10-13-2017 11:04 AM
      On my turbo Fiero, the limiter was set to simply cut fuel - there was no popping, the fire just went out if you exceeded a certain preset boost pressure or if there was knock. Very disconcerting if you aren't used to it - you wonder what you blew. Most spark limiting systems just eliminate every other spark to the plugs and the engine still runs but 'goes flat' without allowing any increase in engine speed.

I grew to appreciate the over-boost limiter - only happened occasionally on long straights using full boost.


La fiera MSG #32, 10-14-2017 11:14 PM
     
Prep the bores for piston installation.
I used my own assembly lube. Its hi in MOs2 thus the grey color.


Pistons get coated with a MOs2 dry lubricant on the top and skirts
This dry lubricant is also a shield for hi temperature.


Rings gapped for my application and going in.
I opted for +.040 pistons to increase compression


The block was decked to purposely have the crowns of the pistons protrude out.
You can see how much the crown comes out. That is a flat bar on top of the piston
and the gap between piston crown and engine block is pretty wide.


Torque mains and rods to the specified torque and mark them as you go along!
The bearing clearances of the mains and rods have been checked already.
I opted to be on the looser side so I have to use 10w-40 and up oil.


Next is the cam and lifters. Besides lubing it up I apply a coat of dry MOs2 lubricant!
This is a mechanical cam and lifters set up with high pressure springs, so lubrication on start up
is very important!!



Now the lifters. Look closely at the first picture and you'll see a little pin hole on the face of the lifters. These lifters supply pressurized
oil to the cam lobes. Now you know why I opted for the HV oil pump?


Install timing chain. I chose the Double Roller for this motor.
In my 170WHP 2.8 I used a stock timing chain and with the 2100 racing miles I did
the stock chain stretched considerably!!!! So, I learned my lesson.
Make sure to apply plenty of assembly lube between the chain, sprockets and slider.

Next, the heads go on. And I will reveal with what compression ration I ended up with! Stay tuned!!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-21-2017).]

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #33, 10-14-2017 11:32 PM
      What's the idea of putting the MoS2 stuff in the cylinder bores? Won't that slow down the ring+bore break-in?

Obviously, the engine seems to have been a success, but I'm not sure if that step was a good one.

What kind of oil do you use? Does it have lots of ZDDP ? I suppose there are more ZDDP-filled choices in the 40-weight and up viscosities...

Is the camshaft black because it has been nitrided?

And how did you drill the lifters without leaving a burr?


La fiera MSG #34, 10-15-2017 12:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

What's the idea of putting the MoS2 stuff in the cylinder bores? Won't that slow down the ring+bore break-in?

Obviously, the engine seems to have been a success, but I'm not sure if that step was a good one.

What kind of oil do you use? Does it have lots of ZDDP ? I suppose there are more ZDDP-filled choices in the 40-weight and up viscosities...

Is the camshaft black because it has been nitrided?

And how did you drill the lifters without leaving a burr?


ZDDP is a very good extreme pressure lubricant but the more pressure exerted on ZDDP the more draggy and inefficient it becomes
because it requires energy to overcome the friction. In the other hand MoS2 and WS2 don't have that problem, the opposite happens.

I add MoS2 solid lubricant to the assembly lube to be safe when turning the engine for the 1st time.
I use Comp Cams mineral 30W Breaking Oil for the first start up and 30 mins of engine running.
I also drive the car with the breaking oil and do plenty of accel and decel at different RPMs to seal my rings.
The following oil change is a 10W-40 rich in MoS2 and good ZDDP, so MoS2 is the main anti-friction additive.
I've built many engines and the follow this procedure and have never had an oil comsumption problems due to rings not sealing.

The camshaft is coated with MoS2 dry film before the assembly lube is applied.

The lifters are made that way. Its called "Cool Face"
They have a .024 hole that is precision
machined in the face of the lifter. No
significant oil pressure loss, but significantly
improved cam and lifter longevity



La fiera MSG #35, 10-21-2017 11:20 PM
     
Installing the pump.
The Camaro pump and screen where used because the screen pump hole and the screen pipe are bigger diameter.
The pump mounts without a gasket but I always use liquid gasket between the mating surfaces to create a tight seal.

Bottom end ready for the top end!


La fiera MSG #36, 10-24-2017 10:04 PM
     
Lets put some heads up!


After torquing both heads the rockers are installed and lashed!


Intake and headers on and torqued.


If you want a REAL harmonic balancer, this is it. After shredding the stock one apart because it couldn't take the RPM I decided to to do some research and found this is the best of the best. Engine revs so fast, free and clean!! I'll never go back to stock!


La fiera MSG #37, 10-24-2017 10:15 PM
     
I need some money to keep up with the project so lets work on some expensive cars!
I love this part of my profession. People buy Lambos and Ferraris and Porsches and I drive them for free!!!


2.5 MSG #38, 10-25-2017 10:32 AM
      Cool stuff.
I am a fan of Mos2 as well.
Whats your opinion on running an oil that comes with moly in it all the time, not just break in? Or Moly additives? New or old engines.


2.5 MSG #39, 10-25-2017 10:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

The weight goal with the engine must be below 2200lbls
to have a competitive power to weight ratio.
:


Do you have a list of car lightening mods?


La fiera MSG #40, 10-25-2017 01:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Cool stuff.
I am a fan of Mos2 as well.
Whats your opinion on running an oil that comes with moly in it all the time, not just break in? Or Moly additives? New or old engines.




This is the oil I use in all my cars. I have used it for years and never had a problem. It is a REAL antifriction oil.
It has 1200ppm of Phosphorous, 1100ppm of zinc and 1300ppm of Mos2 if I remember right.
Its the perfect match for the flat tapped equipped engine
You can get it in at Advance Autoparts now since they bought WorldPac.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-25-2017).]

turbo 3800 MSG #41, 10-25-2017 06:48 PM
      Details on heads? More up close pics of ports? How about parts used? Larger valves? Flow numbers? Who ported the heads?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #42, 10-25-2017 07:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

I don't know if I mentioned it yet but I'm working on a set of 3500 aluminium heads to complement that bottom end I just
mentioned and my goal for that set up is 300+ WHP.



If you want naturally aspirated power, start with a 3900. End of story. Biggest bore and best heads ever put on a 60 degree V6, roller cam, no replacement for displacement.

 
quote
Originally posted by Francis T:

I would suggest limiting your targeted peak power to around 5k - 5.5k RPM if you have an iron crankshaft, especially with a 3.4 - which is a stroked 2.8- too much reciprocating mass.

I got lucky - cost me $110- and brought one of the last -discontinued- Eagle STEEL crankshafts, else I would not have built my 2.8 for high RPM use.
BTW Venola makes good forged pistons that are priced good.


Almost all stock 60 degree V6 bottom ends will go to 7k just fine. The early 2.8's without the lead-in grooves to the crankshaft oil passages are the only exception.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-25-2017).]

La fiera MSG #43, 10-25-2017 10:20 PM
      Hello will! I didn't mentioned it before but I want to keep the "stock " long block look. I'm working on a 3.7 liter using the stock Camaro block.
I know, I know, I can hear all the talk but you'll see it after is done. And I decided to stay with the iron heads because I want to keep the "stock"
looking long block. And my goal is still 300WHP. Hard to swallow but I love challenges.

I'll be selling the 3500 aluminum heads. They are being developed right now $1000 shipped Anybody?
Flow numbers will come soon.


La fiera MSG #44, 10-25-2017 10:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:

Details on heads? More up close pics of ports? How about parts used? Larger valves? Flow numbers? Who ported the heads?


That's the kind of information that can't be disclosed like I mentioned on m first post.
The only thing I can tell you is that is not about how much they flow, its about the length of time of "that" flow.



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #45, 10-26-2017 12:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Hello will!

I was wondering how long it would take before some pundits would tell you you're doing it wrong. LMFAO!
Clearly you're doing it wrong if you're making mode hp than a stock 3900 with the world's greatest factory heads...

You'll have to tell me how you're going to coax 3.7L out of your other block though...


turbo 3800 MSG #46, 10-26-2017 01:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I was wondering how long it would take before some pundits would tell you you're doing it wrong. LMFAO!
Clearly you're doing it wrong if you're making mode hp than a stock 3900 with the world's greatest factory heads...

.


Yea but la fiera still makes 25+ hp less than a near equally modified lx9. Lx9 wasn't fully rebuilt to race specs like la fiera. That's a fact.

Cam swap and 75 mm tb on a 3900 through an auto did 240 whp through an automatic. That's about 300 crank with 2 mods.

Claim you want to keep it stock looking but not with that intake manifold on it sticking out through the decklid.

You already made 240 whp so 10 more should be there.



Tony Kania MSG #47, 10-26-2017 02:35 PM
      Some men prefer blondes, other brunettes.

I love the cleanliness of this build. While not as interesting, I too have a very clean block on my engine stand. It is a Ford, but just as shiny.

Carry on. This is a nice thread to watch.


La fiera MSG #48, 10-26-2017 02:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:


Yea but la fiera still makes 25+ hp less than a near equally modified lx9. Lx9 wasn't fully rebuilt to race specs like la fiera. That's a fact.

Cam swap and 75 mm tb on a 3900 through an auto did 240 whp through an automatic. That's about 300 crank with 2 mods.

Claim you want to keep it stock looking but not with that intake manifold on it sticking out through the decklid.

You already made 240 whp so 10 more should be there.


Now that's an unfair comparison, the LX9 has 500cc' over in displacement, better intake and heads that flow way better than the 3.4 and the advantage of the roller cam.
So that engine you mentioned with 2 mods that made 240WHP, in reality it has 6 mods over the L32.
A bone stock LX9 is about 165WHP and a bone stock L32 is about 135-140WHP.
I don't know if you know but with the 2.8 I had previous to the 3.4, I was able to squeeze 173WHP @ 6000RPM.., more than a stock LX9.

The best part of having the stock appearing long block with an intake sticking out of the decklid is the look of peoples faces, specially at the track.
They spec to see a SBC, 4.9, LS4 or something else.
I respect and admire peoples engine swaps because they give their Fiero a unique personality and soul. The car becomes a living creature with a new name and attitude and they display it proudly! The car now becomes a REAL Fiero!!


But for all fairness sake, I'll just keep my iron heads and keep charging forward.
After reaching my 250WHP goal, my next goal is to get those extras 25WHP to pass that nearly modified LX9 you mentioned.

Stay tuned!



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #49, 10-26-2017 05:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


That's the kind of information that can't be disclosed like I mentioned on m first post.
The only thing I can tell you is that is not about how much they flow, its about the length of time of "that" flow.


Are you worried about someone on the board making their Fiero quicker than yours?

Why does the sauce need to be kept secret?


turbo 3800 MSG #50, 10-26-2017 06:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


Now that's an unfair comparison, the LX9 has 500cc' over in displacement, better intake and heads that flow way better than the 3.4 and the advantage of the roller cam.
So that engine you mentioned with 2 mods that made 240WHP, in reality it has 6 mods over the L32.
A bone stock LX9 is about 165WHP and a bone stock L32 is about 135-140WHP.
I don't know if you know but with the 2.8 I had previous to the 3.4, I was able to squeeze 173WHP @ 6000RPM.., more than a stock LX9.

The best part of having the stock appearing long block with an intake sticking out of the decklid is the look of peoples faces, specially at the track.
They spec to see a SBC, 4.9, LS4 or something else.
I respect and admire peoples engine swaps because they give their Fiero a unique personality and soul. The car becomes a living creature with a new name and attitude and they display it proudly! The car now becomes a REAL Fiero!!


But for all fairness sake, I'll just keep my iron heads and keep charging forward.
After reaching my 250WHP goal, my next goal is to get those extras 25WHP to pass that nearly modified LX9 you mentioned.

Stay tuned!



The lx9 is a 3.5 liter. The lz9 is a 3.9. Yes the lz9 has more displacement but I wouldn't call it unfair. Formula1 engines are smaller than an lx9 and make more power n\a.

Swapped Lx9 is into fiero and Cavaliers have made 180-200 whp. Simple mod like freeing up intake with a pipe and filter and larger diameter exhaust when swapped is something that has to be done anyways when swapped. There are dyno sheets out there of this I am sure. No other mods done. No cam headers or anything else. That's 60-70 hp more than an l32

Lx9 with stock compression, ported heads, camshaft gasket matched factory intake and a 65 mm tb made 35 more hp than the fully built iron head 3.4 and still did it on factory computer. Most modded 3.4 only do 160-180 whp though. Yours is much stronger than average.

A 3900 iron block still has a factory longblock look to it if you put iron heads on it. Then you get advantage of stock looking block with increased displacement and roller cam.

You could use a 3400 iron block and use a roller cam too you know. You are using a big mechanical while the lz9 uses a puny hydraulic.

Congrats on using iron heads and making 240 whp. Its a good accomplishment. But it could be more if you ditched the iron heads. That's the point Will was making. Since you want to sell your aluminum heads you willing to share the specs on those that you claim to have modded? Flow numbers? Valve size? Number of angle valvejob?


La fiera MSG #51, 10-26-2017 08:01 PM
     
 
quote
[B]
A 3900 iron block still has a factory longblock look to it if you put iron heads on it. Then you get advantage of stock looking block with increased displacement and roller cam.

You could use a 3400 iron block and use a roller cam too you know. You are using a big mechanical while the lz9 uses a puny hydraulic.

Congrats on using iron heads and making 240 whp. Its a good accomplishment. But it could be more if you ditched the iron heads. That's the point Will was making. Since you want to sell your aluminum heads you willing to share the specs on those that you claim to have modded? Flow numbers? Valve size? Number of angle valvejob?


That's a good idea about using the 3900 block and use the iron heads! But then I have to get pistons to make up for the compression lost because of the chamber difference.

The reason I use a big mechanical cam is to make up for the lack of head flow of the iron heads.
And you are right, the LX9 does have a puny camshaft but the head flow makes up for the lack of lift and duration.

The 3500 heads are being made as of now. And for me to sell them I must have flow numbers and all the details otherwise I wont be able to sell them.
When they are ready I'll put them up in the mall.

And thank you very much for your suggestions, I really appreciate any suggestions from anybody.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #52, 10-26-2017 10:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:
The lx9 is a 3.5 liter. The lz9 is a 3.9. Yes the lz9 has more displacement but I wouldn't call it unfair. Formula1 engines are smaller than an lx9 and make more power n\a.

Swapped Lx9 is into fiero and Cavaliers have made 180-200 whp. Simple mod like freeing up intake with a pipe and filter and larger diameter exhaust when swapped is something that has to be done anyways when swapped. There are dyno sheets out there of this I am sure. No other mods done. No cam headers or anything else. That's 60-70 hp more than an l32

Lx9 with stock compression, ported heads, camshaft gasket matched factory intake and a 65 mm tb made 35 more hp than the fully built iron head 3.4 and still did it on factory computer. Most modded 3.4 only do 160-180 whp though. Yours is much stronger than average.

A 3900 iron block still has a factory longblock look to it if you put iron heads on it. Then you get advantage of stock looking block with increased displacement and roller cam.

You could use a 3400 iron block and use a roller cam too you know. You are using a big mechanical while the lz9 uses a puny hydraulic.

Congrats on using iron heads and making 240 whp. Its a good accomplishment. But it could be more if you ditched the iron heads. That's the point Will was making. Since you want to sell your aluminum heads you willing to share the specs on those that you claim to have modded? Flow numbers? Valve size? Number of angle valvejob?

You do know he's making 240 rwhp on a Mustang dyno with heavier than stock wheels right? Just buy switching to a Dynojet and he's closer to 260...


mender MSG #53, 10-26-2017 10:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
A bone stock LX9 is about 165WHP and a bone stock L32 is about 135-140WHP.
I don't know if you know but with the 2.8 I had previous to the 3.4, I was able to squeeze 173WHP @ 6000RPM.., more than a stock LX9.

Just another data point: my LX9 has all stock internals and cast iron exhaust manifolds. I use a cable Shortstar throttle body that's the same size as the LX9 DBW TB. I did mild porting on everything I could reach (own and run a performance engine shop) and made 186 whp @ 5300 rpm (that stock cam) on a Dynomotive dyno when finished tuning. At the 6300 rpm fuel cut-off it's still making 172 whp.

Torque output at the wheels starts at 200 ft.lbs @ 2500 rpm, stays almost flat with a peak of 204 ft.lbs at 3800 rpm then starts dropping, dipping below 200 ft.lbs by 4500 rpm.

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 10-26-2017).]

La fiera MSG #54, 10-26-2017 10:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Are you worried about someone on the board making their Fiero quicker than yours?

Why does the sauce need to be kept secret?


Not at all, There will always be some Fiero quicker than mine. I'm always willing to help anybody in the forum and I know some members can testify for that.
But there are certain things that I'd like to keep for myself.

Give you an example:
A friend came to ask me to enter in a karting championship the local track was putting together for the following year, my friend was also the track manager.
The reason he asked me was because he saw me about every weekend practicing. My kart did not comply with the rules because it was built in 1999 for oval tracks only.
This new local track was a road course and to make my kart "Legal" I had to do some changes to it and I did, but not on time. A new kart is about $4500-$5500, I paid $700 for mine! It needed a Spec engine, Spec tires and had to put weights to met the minimum weight to be legal. I asked another friend that owns a Mexican burrito joint to sponsor me and he agreed! He paid for the engine, paid all my entry fees and gas.
Since I was sponsored I paid a local team to rent a kart for the first 3 races, I managed two 2nd places and 1 win. They did the tuning and set up of the kart.
I entered my "modified oval kart" in the 4th round and you should've seen peoples faces! some of them thought it was a joke!

The joke was on them when I put it in pole position for the start. I went to win the race with a large margin of victory. I proceeded to tech to check my "legality" and they stripped my kart apart looking for something illegal, they found nothing. And that happened at every single race!

To make the story short I managed to win almost all the races, the ones I didn't win was because the kart had a mechanical failure or someone crashed into me.
They even brought professional kart drivers with years of experience and hundreds of wins. Did not work for them and that draw the line!
They came to me after the ceremony at the championship banquet to tell me that they will not let me race the following year, they said they had to "level" the plainfield.
"We know you are cheating but we don't know how", that was their reason from banning me from racing that class.

You know where my secret was? All competitors had the same weight, sealed engine and tires. My secret was in the set up and the way I adjusted my driving to use that set up to my advantage.
That was in 2014 and they still ask me how do I manage to be so fast? Now I have a new kart that a manufacturer gave to me because of my achievement with the older kart! the last 2 races I won with the new kart but I used the same principle; set up and use it to my advantage.

Now your question would be like: What was your set up? That I can't tell you!

The moral behind the story is: Don't do what EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING. Think for yourself and look for ways to improve without following the trend.

I'll leave you with some pictures.









That landed me a ride on a Civic on the 24 horus of VIR Chump Car Series. Started 82nd and finished 10th.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-26-2017).]

La fiera MSG #55, 10-27-2017 09:59 PM
      Back to the build!
I upgraded the trans. I went from the M17 3.65 gears to the M19 4.10 performance gears 4 speed manual. And to make things more interesting the diff is locked.
Now the driver input has a lot to do with it. You can't just floor it because you'll wrap it around a three.
The reason I decided to weld the diff was because of my karting experience. If I can drive a kart and be fast I want my Fiero
to be just like my kart.




Throttle response is very important for me, specially when rev matching. So an aluminum flywheel was chosen.
There is one trick you must do otherwise you'll hear noises and think is you motor!


If you choose to use an aluminum flywheel DO NOT INSTALL the bolts with out hard steel washers. The reason being is that the bolts will eat the aluminum and the flywheel will get loose and damaged. Apply red locktite and torque to the recommended specs.


Got an Ebay clutch just for giggles and also the price was right! I don't think it'll last long!


Get it in place and ready for the pressure plate.


Pressure plate torqued in place. I think the red color will give it more clamping force!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 10-27-2017).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #56, 10-28-2017 11:45 AM
      The red pressure plate holds an extra 20 ft-lb... true story.

I've been using a Fidanza aluminum flywheel for about 10 years now. There is no loctite on the flywheel bolts. The flywheel has never come loose. Proper torque (and torquing sequence) is your friend.


La fiera MSG #57, 10-28-2017 02:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

The red pressure plate holds an extra 20 ft-lb... true story.

I've been using a Fidanza aluminum flywheel for about 10 years now. There is no loctite on the flywheel bolts. The flywheel has never come loose. Proper torque (and torquing sequence) is your friend.


According to the manual there is no loctite on the flywheel botls that's for sure, but me personally using an aluminum flywheel with steel bolts and not using a washer to spread the clamping force evenly around the weak and softer aluminum is asking for trouble. Loctite is for extra precaution, you'll be surprise to see what comes loose when you run an engine constantly from mid to hi rpm for an hour of so.

Hey Mike, you replaced the friction disc on your flywheel right? Can you direct me where to get one?

Thanks!



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #58, 10-28-2017 03:22 PM
      It's available at Summit Racing. Here's the link: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fiz-229501

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #59, 10-28-2017 07:45 PM
      That pressure plate sucks. Not that brand per-se. just that specific type. Its a "Valeo AMC44" which probably had its pressure angle modded. I had severe issues with those type plates. They rely solely on the spring straps to retract the pressure ring itself. When you release the clutch the pressure ring isn't FORCED to retract. the spring straps merely suggest it. At high RPM any imbalance of the pressure ring causes it to wobble, grabbing the clutch disk unintentionally. Long story short. You may not be able to shift at high RPMs. If it were perfectly balanced and mounted perfectly centered it might be ok, but chances are it is not.

I've had great luck with Exedy "GMC502" They have clips that are riveted on that grab behind the diaphragm spring. The pressure ring is forced to back away from the clutch disk when you release the clutch. Only downside is that it is a relatively low-moderate clamping pressure plate at 2100 lbs. I've measured SPEC's "SCC883" pressure plate right at 3000 lbs which is impressive. However, that one won't stay released at high RPMs. The modifications they made to increase clamping also reduced the spring straps retracting force.

For some detail, see my build thread.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/127002-7.html#p250

I haven't updated it with my modified Exedy pressure plates yet, as I just finished building one.


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #60, 10-28-2017 08:16 PM
      Funny how there seems to be just a handful of clutch manufacturers in the world.

Everyone else is just repackaging/repainting/relabeling the Big Guys' clutches.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #61, 10-28-2017 08:18 PM
      That friction disc makes me nervous. There doesn't seem to be much of anything holding the springs in the hub. You do NOT want that thing throwing springs at 7000 RPM! I'd suggest getting a friction disc with better spring retention, like this:



Notice how there's a sheet metal "cage" around the springs in the hub. There's no way those springs can pop out.


Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #62, 10-28-2017 08:24 PM
      Yes on the handful of manufacturers. But they aren't just re branding, packaging and re-painting. They do modify them. What mods are done, and how they are done is everything. But I've learned so much more than anyone needs to know about how sensitive clutches and pressure plates can be. You can't just put together any plate with any disk and expect it to work. Disk thickness VS pressure plate's load curve is so important, and a very touchy thing. But I can tell just by looking at his clutch that its at the very least got that nailed. The fingers are pressed in to the peak load point, They should be even, or just below the face of the cover plate.

La fiera MSG #63, 10-28-2017 09:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

Yes on the handful of manufacturers. But they aren't just re branding, packaging and re-painting. They do modify them. What mods are done, and how they are done is everything. But I've learned so much more than anyone needs to know about how sensitive clutches and pressure plates can be. You can't just put together any plate with any disk and expect it to work. Disk thickness VS pressure plate's load curve is so important, and a very touchy thing. But I can tell just by looking at his clutch that its at the very least got that nailed. The fingers are pressed in to the peak load point, They should be even, or just below the face of the cover plate.


Well thank you for that information Fierobsessed! What clutch do you recommend for my build?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #64, 10-29-2017 01:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Hello will! I didn't mentioned it before but I want to keep the "stock " long block look. I'm working on a 3.7 liter using the stock Camaro block.
I know, I know, I can hear all the talk but you'll see it after is done. And I decided to stay with the iron heads because I want to keep the "stock"
looking long block. And my goal is still 300WHP. Hard to swallow but I love challenges.

I'll be selling the 3500 aluminum heads. They are being developed right now $1000 shipped Anybody?
Flow numbers will come soon.


I never understood prioritizing looks over power, but it's your build. Just keep your expectations realistic. There's are reasons Northstars make more power than 4.9's that no 4.9 build can overcome no matter how much attention is put into the details.

I don't think you'll get to 300 WHP with the iron heads unless everything else in the build is perfect, including use of an aggressive mechanical ROLLER cam and more displacement. 3.7 liters from the Camaro block will be fun, too. There are ways to do it, but none of them are well-advised.

Without the extra displacement, you'll be getting into an RPM range in which the required spring load and valvetrain loads run a real risk of popping a rocker boss off the heads. If that happens, you'll never achieve your goal with that configuration.


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Now that's an unfair comparison, the LX9 has 500cc' over in displacement, better intake and heads that flow way better than the 3.4 and the advantage of the roller cam.
So that engine you mentioned with 2 mods that made 240WHP, in reality it has 6 mods over the L32.


LOL! You're the one who gave yourself the handicaps
As noted, LX9 in a 3.5 liter, so displacement advantage is not 500ccs. However, it has a 2mm bigger bore than the 3.4, unshrouding the valves that much more.
Focus on engine building, not mod accounting.


 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:

A 3900 iron block still has a factory longblock look to it if you put iron heads on it. Then you get advantage of stock looking block with increased displacement and roller cam.


This won't work. The LZ4 and LZ9 bore centers are moved outboard compared to earlier engines. The accompanying increase in bore size to 99mm means that the outer edges of the bore move 5 mm. This change caused GM to move the cooling jacket holes in the deck. Neither the chambers/bores nor the cooling jacket holes still line up between the old heads and the new blocks.

 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:
You could use a 3400 iron block and use a roller cam too you know.


Exactly... I think he'll need to do that in order to hit his power goal.


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

That's a good idea about using the 3900 block and use the iron heads!

The reason I use a big mechanical cam is to make up for the lack of head flow of the iron heads.


A big roller would do even better, as aggressive ramp rates would result in more area under the lift curve and more time spent at max lift, comparing across the same max lift for flat and roller tappets.
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Back to the build!
I upgraded the trans. I went from the M17 3.65 gears to the M19 4.10 performance gears 4 speed manual. And to make things more interesting the diff is locked.
Now the driver input has a lot to do with it. You can't just floor it because you'll wrap it around a three.
The reason I decided to weld the diff was because of my karting experience. If I can drive a kart and be fast I want my Fiero
to be just like my kart.


LOL! Good luck with that. Your Fiero is NOT a kart.


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

If you choose to use an aluminum flywheel DO NOT INSTALL the bolts with out hard steel washers. The reason being is that the bolts will eat the aluminum and the flywheel will get loose and damaged. Apply red locktite and torque to the recommended specs.



How many torque cycles are on those bolts? Reusing stock bolts more than two torque cycles is very sketchy.

If you want a clutch that enhances your car's performance, you may want to give serious consideration to a Tilton or Quartermaster 7.25" dual disk.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-29-2017).]

La fiera MSG #65, 10-29-2017 03:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

If you want a clutch that enhances your car's performance, you may want to give serious consideration to a Tilton or Quartermaster 7.25" dual disk.



Thank you very much Will!!



La fiera MSG #66, 10-29-2017 06:45 PM
      Ok! Enough of the positive criticism and back to the build!



connected the oil lines and new oil filter.


Prime the entine


Fuel lines installed and pressurized, make sure to check for leaks!


Ok, we are ready to fire! Waiting for Major Tom countdown!


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #67, 10-31-2017 10:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

LOL! Good luck with that. Your Fiero is NOT a kart.


Tell that to people who drive larger cars...
It's actually one of the things I like about the Fiero when compared to 'other' vehicles.

 
quote
I don't think you'll get to 300 WHP with the iron heads unless everything else in the build is perfect, including use of an aggressive mechanical ROLLER cam and more displacement. 3.7 liters from the Camaro block will be fun, too. There are ways to do it, but none of them are well-advised.

Yep. We know...a 3.4 will never make 200rwhp...then Oreif did... A 3.4 will never make 250hp...then la Fiera did...
I think he knows what he's doing. Rather than sit here and criticize, let's just enjoy the build...which has already exceeded all expectations!
Personally, I think he could hit 300 as a 3.5L with more compression and a couple of other tweaks such as narrower valve stems...


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #68, 11-01-2017 09:26 PM
      There was nothing ambiguous or open to interpretation about the assertion "Your Fiero is not a kart". Larger cars were not mentioned and therefore are not relevant.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. You quoted me as not saying that. I did say that the rest of the build would have to be perfect in order to hit 300 WHP. This remains the case and is likewise not ambiguous.

Let us know when you do a 250 WHP build.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #69, 11-02-2017 07:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

There was nothing ambiguous or open to interpretation about the assertion "Your Fiero is not a kart". Larger cars were not mentioned and therefore are not relevant.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. You quoted me as not saying that. I did say that the rest of the build would have to be perfect in order to hit 300 WHP. This remains the case and is likewise not ambiguous.

Let us know when you do a 250 WHP build.

I'll let you know when I try. Considering the weight of the wheels I'm turning, and the race I run, my builds have been about torque and I've already made 249 ft*lbs with a stock 3400 cam + Fiero intake on a Mustang dyno. I lost power [on the dyno] when I upgraded from 45 lbs wheel/tire combination to 54 lbs....yet still make over 200ft*lbs... Even at 45lbs, my rotating assembly was made higher than stock thanks to my 12" brakes and the thicker than stock Cobalt SS-based axles required by the F40 6-speed oh yeah and 1" aluminum spacer for the flywheel. Once again - the heads aren't the issue.
At the time, I remarked that my 3.4 build was slightly faster than my 4.9+allante intake 5 speed car with stock brakes and axles. Since going to bigger and wider and heavier wheels, it is most certainly not as future dynos have proven...however, the extra grip at the track still made the car faster overall on the oval-track racing that I do because I build that kind of engine for that kind of race. When you pay me to build a 300hp engine, I most certainly will. My drop-clutch rpm is in the 2000-2400 range and thanks to the gearing, I launch as good as slightly modified AWD cars but not as good as the more highly modified ones. My current engine is using the 480/480 cam from WOT-Tech which lowers the peak hp by another 300 rpm but gives me a slight bump in torque 400rpm sooner on the torque curve.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 11-02-2017).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #70, 11-02-2017 01:17 PM
      [/benchracing]

Boot (ryanhill204@gmail.com) MSG #71, 11-02-2017 09:02 PM
      This is a great thread... I've wanted to see what sort of crazy places I could take an iron head motor, or even a stock displacement motor, but of course no means, means no course :P

Anyways, I was reading about your crank up above. What about the Mclaren/GM 3.1 turbo v6 from the late 80's? LG5, I think. From what I've read of it, not only is the block a special alloy with more nickel, but the internals are all hardened too. if you could find one of those, I'm sure the crank would be a stronger alternative to the f-body cast unit. According to Wikipedia they made about 3,700 of em per year in 89 and 90.

Hell, if you really felt like it, you could probably bore out the block and use the whole thing. I'm not even sure what the higher nickel content does, but it sounds cool

Here's a link. Wikipedia


La fiera MSG #72, 11-02-2017 09:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Boot:

This is a great thread... I've wanted to see what sort of crazy places I could take an iron head motor, or even a stock displacement motor


Thanks Boot! That is what this build is all about!
I know I can break the 300whp with aluminum heads and put the NorthStar to shame missing 2 cylinders but this is not about that. This is about pushing the envelope.
Not only that but I do road course racing. That is at least 30 minutes of hard driving, So endurance will also be a test.



La fiera MSG #73, 11-02-2017 09:55 PM
     
I find it funny how everyone is pushing their 30+ year's Fieros for more performance but they don't try to get to the car's performance level themselves!

Here I am at 48 getting ready for next weekend to shakedown the Supernatural 3.4 at the road course.

My philosophy is that Fiero and driver are one

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 11-02-2017).]

La fiera MSG #74, 11-02-2017 10:35 PM
     


New wheel and tires installed. I chose the "Stock Car" look becasue I livein Mooresville,, NC where a bunch of drivers and teams are located here in NC. Literally down the street from me. ( I hate NASCAR) I only watch 2 races a year, Sonoma, California and Watkins Glen, NY and they are both road courses.
I'm waiting for some flares, if they don't come before my test I'll use the other wheel and tire combo.
Why did I chose it? Because I like the Look!
Yes, the 1983 Porsche 944 is my daily driver and my 2014 Abarth is also my other daily driver. Like the Fiero they are light, nimble and low powered cars! They make for a better driver.

The Fiero scaled at 2200 without me, I weight 138lbs.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #75, 11-03-2017 07:07 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

[/benchracing]


It's nice to see you finally being honest with yourself.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #76, 11-03-2017 07:14 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:




New wheel and tires installed. I chose the "Stock Car" look becasue I livein Mooresville,, NC where a bunch of drivers and teams are located here in NC. Literally down the street from me. ( I hate NASCAR) I only watch 2 races a year, Sonoma, California and Watkins Glen, NY and they are both road courses.
I'm waiting for some flares, if they don't come before my test I'll use the other wheel and tire combo.
Why did I chose it? Because I like the Look!
Yes, the 1983 Porsche 944 is my daily driver and my 2014 Abarth is also my other daily driver. Like the Fiero they are light, nimble and low powered cars! They make for a better driver.

The Fiero scaled at 2200 without me, I weight 138lbs.

One of the projects I hope to get done this winter is adapting the 93-97 Firebird fenders to the Fiero. I've been destroying my nose and wheel-well area with my 17x10's and the Firebird fender seems to fit right over the Fiero fender pretty well but needs trimming around the door and windshield. It also requires so massaging at the front but I was thinking of merging the Trans Am nose I have with the Fiero nose to support it. I have a video either on youtube or Facebook where I test-fit the fenders.


La fiera MSG #77, 11-03-2017 07:34 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

One of the projects I hope to get done this winter is adapting the 93-97 Firebird fenders to the Fiero. I've been destroying my nose and wheel-well area with my 17x10's and the Firebird fender seems to fit right over the Fiero fender pretty well but needs trimming around the door and windshield. It also requires so massaging at the front but I was thinking of merging the Trans Am nose I have with the Fiero nose to support it. I have a video either on youtube or Facebook where I test-fit the fenders.


Send me the link, I'd like to see that. That is a very clever idea!


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #78, 11-03-2017 02:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Send me the link, I'd like to see that. That is a very clever idea!

Just uploaded it. Was on facebook but I couldn't find it.




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #79, 11-03-2017 03:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:



FieroWarehouse wide front fenders?
What size tires?


La fiera MSG #80, 11-03-2017 03:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Just uploaded it. Was on facebook but I couldn't find it.


Thar looks pretty nice! Are they metal or fiberglass?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #81, 11-03-2017 03:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

It's nice to see you finally being honest with yourself.


I'm not the one making excuses for not making power.


La fiera MSG #82, 11-03-2017 03:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


FieroWarehouse wide front fenders?
What size tires?


225/50/15 front
235/50/15 rear

I'll check fiero warehouse, thank you for the sugestion!


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #83, 11-03-2017 03:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I'm not the one making excuses for not making power.


I'm not making excuses. I'm making dyno proven facts. Saying an iron head motor can't make 250rwhp is not only bench racing, but pure BS.
As I've said before, I'm not going to spend money changing wheels to prove what is proven just because some troll doesn't accept reality. However, as I'm a consultant, if you pay me to do so - I will, Will.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #84, 11-03-2017 03:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Thar looks pretty nice! Are they metal or fiberglass?


Plastic of course! That's why I'm going to cut the inner lip along the Firebird fender and cut most of the Fiero fender off leaving an inch on top and essentially glueing it to what's left of the Fiero fender where it mounts to the frame. My Fiero fenders are cracked from turning the wheels too far so no big loss there.


La fiera MSG #85, 11-03-2017 04:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:


Plastic of course! That's why I'm going to cut the inner lip along the Firebird fender and cut most of the Fiero fender off leaving an inch on top and essentially glueing it to what's left of the Fiero fender where it mounts to the frame. My Fiero fenders are cracked from turning the wheels too far so no big loss there.

Hmmm!! I like the look of a Firebird nose also. I'll look in to it.
The other thing is that I want to do it so I can remove the front clip.


La fiera MSG #86, 11-03-2017 04:11 PM
      Hey Lou! Where can I get a set of fenders like that and the nose?

Boot (ryanhill204@gmail.com) MSG #87, 11-03-2017 06:14 PM
      Have you driven it much with the welded diff? I'm curious about how that'll affect the handling. Do you have the car set up very stiff, to mimic a kart with no suspension? Thats probably the thing I'm most excited to see in this build.


Also, I think I might try to find a crank from one of those old mclaren turbo grand prixs. If it's close to as strong as the old eagle steel crank, that could open up some possibilities for those of us who like our v6's

[This message has been edited by Boot (edited 11-03-2017).]

La fiera MSG #88, 11-03-2017 08:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Boot:

Have you driven it much with the welded diff? I'm curious about how that'll affect the handling. Do you have the car set up very stiff, to mimic a kart with no suspension? Thats probably the thing I'm most excited to see in this build.


Also, I think I might try to find a crank from one of those old mclaren turbo grand prixs. If it's close to as strong as the old eagle steel crank, that could open up some possibilities for those of us who like our v6's


I have driven it plenty and the one thing I love about having the welded diff is the amount of grip that the rear obtained.
The car had a tendency to oversteer easy after I added the fiero store rear swaybar with the open diff. I then upgraded the swaybars with adjustable NASCAR style fully adjustable and 350# springs and I was able to adjust the car better but I couldn't get the predictability I was looking for.
After I welded the diff high speed braking improved a lot and I can throttle steer it in a very predictable way. I feel more comfortable driving it with the welded diff than without it, I would never go back to an open diff.
The 11 and 12 of this month I'm going to shake down the car and I will be able to really drive it safely


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #89, 11-04-2017 04:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Hey Lou! Where can I get a set of fenders like that and the nose?

A lot of F-body guys in my area always buying them and stripping them for parts so I got my set cheap. You can just go to a pick and pull. It all unscrews off like the Fiero panels. Make sure you grab the lighting connectors if you plan on wiring in the lights.


La fiera MSG #90, 11-05-2017 09:05 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

A lot of F-body guys in my area always buying them and stripping them for parts so I got my set cheap. You can just go to a pick and pull. It all unscrews off like the Fiero panels. Make sure you grab the lighting connectors if you plan on wiring in the lights.


Thanks Lou!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 11-05-2017).]

Boot (ryanhill204@gmail.com) MSG #91, 11-06-2017 01:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

I have driven it plenty and the one thing I love about having the welded diff is the amount of grip that the rear obtained.
The car had a tendency to oversteer easy after I added the fiero store rear swaybar with the open diff. I then upgraded the swaybars with adjustable NASCAR style fully adjustable and 350# springs and I was able to adjust the car better but I couldn't get the predictability I was looking for.
After I welded the diff high speed braking improved a lot and I can throttle steer it in a very predictable way. I feel more comfortable driving it with the welded diff than without it, I would never go back to an open diff.
The 11 and 12 of this month I'm going to shake down the car and I will be able to really drive it safely


How do you think it compares to say, the same car with an LSD? I know you cant get an LSD for those transmissions, but lets talk theoretically. Everyone Ive talked to about it thinks that with the welded diff it'll just understeer or snap oversteer unless you go fast enough to lift the inside rear like on a kart. That makes sense to me, too. Is that what you're doing? Or is the understeer and oversteer a non issue? Also, how stiff is the front setup compared to the rear?


La fiera MSG #92, 11-06-2017 08:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Boot:


How do you think it compares to say, the same car with an LSD? I know you cant get an LSD for those transmissions, but lets talk theoretically. Everyone Ive talked to about it thinks that with the welded diff it'll just understeer or snap oversteer unless you go fast enough to lift the inside rear like on a kart. That makes sense to me, too. Is that what you're doing? Or is the understeer and oversteer a non issue? Also, how stiff is the front setup compared to the rear?


Well, from an experienced Porsche and kart driver I will tell you that is just perfect. Now, if someone is doing these mods to their Fiearo with no driver experience, he or she will be very disappointed because they are lacking the experience. The rear grip increase is due to the lack of front turn in grip but as soon as you apply throttle the understeer disappears. You literately drive the Fiero with the throttle and to do that it takes some experience. WIth practice and patience anybody can do it and once you experience that, you'll never go back to your old stock settings.


La fiera MSG #93, 11-06-2017 09:01 PM
     


Boot, I can fine tune how I want the car to behave at a specific track. The front has the same set up. I can change the swaybar thickness front and rear and can also can interchange front and rear bars. They have the same spline. It's very tuner friendly!


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #94, 11-06-2017 09:11 PM
      Now THAT is a sway bar!

La fiera MSG #95, 11-08-2017 01:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Now THAT is a sway bar!


Right now it has a 38mm rear bar and a 29mm up front. In a regular Fiero set up the bars order would be the opposite, but having the welded diff the bigger rear and smaller front bar complements the extra grip provided by the welded diff. I can throttle steer it easy and I have complete control of the drift at mid and slow speeds. At hi speed, well; I'll try that this weekend at the track.
When I said my Fiero handles like my kart, believe me ; it does!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #96, 11-12-2017 01:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


225/50/15 front
235/50/15 rear

I'll check fiero warehouse, thank you for the sugestion!



Oh, ok. You have low offset wheels rather than ridiculously wide tires.



La fiera MSG #97, 11-12-2017 07:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Oh, ok. You have low offset wheels rather than ridiculously wide tires.


yes sir



La fiera MSG #98, 11-12-2017 07:48 PM
     

Well guys, I couldn't make it to the track this weekend.
I took the car to the dyno friday morning to simulate a couple of laps on it, that way I can concentrate on the driving instead of tuning the car. Just to make sure that the fuel and ignition maps are good. I did some tuning at the mid range to fix the big dip that the previous dyno sheet shows. It did fantastic! I picked up 50 lbs/ft of torque and 13hp at 2800rpm. The simulation went very well, I was not tuning for ultimate hp but the owner of the dyno told me that I broke into the 250WHP in the 1st try, so I was excited. My main goal was that the engine responded well at all RPMS, so I concentrated on that, so I ran on the dyno for 30 minutes as hard as I could, playing in my mind the roadcourse and accelerating and decelerating accordingly, no problems at all!

At 4:00pm friday and I haven't got my hood and decklid back from the bodyshop! I bring the car back home and suddenly I see a spot of oil on the floor! The driver side driveshaft seal is leaking!
No big deal, I raised the back end to inspected. There is some rotational play between the rear wheels!! I took the speed sensor off and drained the trans oil to inspect it with my bore scope and I can see some welds on the spider gears missing!!!! The hood and decklid showed up, also my friend with the trailer to take my car to the track showed up. But my gut feeling told me not to go and I just went with my gut. I also checked the play on the axles and they are sooo worned out!!

The car drives fine, both rear wheels are still locked. I have to do a cradle change and some upgrades on the engine, I'll just wait until I get my new cradle and engine upgrade to fix the diff.

I think I got a print of one of the passes while on the dyno, I'll try to find it and post it.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #99, 11-12-2017 10:12 PM
      Too bad, was looking forward to some in car vid. Good luck with the fixes.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #100, 11-13-2017 12:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

The driver side driveshaft seal is leaking!
No big deal, I raised the back end to inspected. There is some rotational play between the rear wheels!! I took the speed sensor off and drained the trans oil to inspect it with my bore scope and I can see some welds on the spider gears missing!!!! The hood and decklid showed up, also my friend with the trailer to take my car to the track showed up. But my gut feeling told me not to go and I just went with my gut. I also checked the play on the axles and they are sooo worned out!!

The car drives fine, both rear wheels are still locked. I have to do a cradle change and some upgrades on the engine, I'll just wait until I get my new cradle and engine upgrade to fix the diff.


I was wondering if you were going to have durability issues in that regard. The GM FWD axle form factor is not suited to the abuse of driving with locked diff and a lot of traction. The inner CV joint splines in the transmission are the second weak point in the axles... following the outer CV joint splines in the wheel hubs.



La fiera MSG #101, 11-13-2017 06:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I was wondering if you were going to have durability issues in that regard. The GM FWD axle form factor is not suited to the abuse of driving with locked diff and a lot of traction. The inner CV joint splines in the transmission are the second weak point in the axles... following the outer CV joint splines in the wheel hubs.


Yes Will, these axles are the ones that came with the car when I bought it since 2008, so you can imagine the abuse they've had over the years.
I'm going to re-weld the diff and save some money. The Driveshaft Shop is near my town and they make axles for the Fiero, at only $700 pair.
Is there an upgrade I can use as an less expensive alternative?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #102, 11-15-2017 07:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


Yes Will, these axles are the ones that came with the car when I bought it since 2008, so you can imagine the abuse they've had over the years.
I'm going to re-weld the diff and save some money. The Driveshaft Shop is near my town and they make axles for the Fiero, at only $700 pair.
Is there an upgrade I can use as an less expensive alternative?


http://www.driveshaftshop.c...o-manual-400hp-axles

Interesting... they claim to be able to make any configuration. I wonder if they use bespoke inner CV joint tri-pots or what.
The configuration pictured uses an intermediate shaft, or maybe is for a 4T65E-HD trans, but if they can make the Fiero configuration, that would work.
Stock, the CV joint stub will shear before the splines strip out of the side gears, but I imagine that situation is reversed with the DSS axles.

I have a pair of the old Ecotec racing program axle flanges for 94mm bolt-on CV joints... A few sets are still available for $550ish, but you also need to run them with an intermediate shaft and custom axles, which bumps costs up a lot more than just running DSS axles.


La fiera MSG #103, 11-15-2017 08:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


http://www.driveshaftshop.c...o-manual-400hp-axles

Interesting... they claim to be able to make any configuration. I wonder if they use bespoke inner CV joint tri-pots or what.
The configuration pictured uses an intermediate shaft, or maybe is for a 4T65E-HD trans, but if they can make the Fiero configuration, that would work.
Stock, the CV joint stub will shear before the splines strip out of the side gears, but I imagine that situation is reversed with the DSS axles.

I have a pair of the old Ecotec racing program axle flanges for 94mm bolt-on CV joints... A few sets are still available for $550ish, but you also need to run them with an intermediate shaft and custom axles, which bumps costs up a lot more than just running DSS axles.


Thanks Will!


La fiera MSG #104, 11-26-2017 08:45 PM
     
This is one of the runs I did that day. It only shows power to 5891rpm but at you can see the line is a straight line. I had the runs up to 6000rpm because I was concentrating on smoothing out that dip at lower rpms. This one specifically shows 245whp @ 5891.

Today I'm tuning for the upgraded pump and injector and at low to mid rpm 1/4 to 1/2 throttle the car is wicked torky! And in the 3rd low to mid take off test and it had no problem lighting off the new soft Toyos then this happens!

All I did was laught!! The funny thing is that I picked 2 new axles earlier today because I'm going next weekend to the track!


Lilchief MSG #105, 11-26-2017 11:14 PM
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...rix_Abarth_front.jpg
A little off subject but here's my first fiat, Mine was red.



La fiera MSG #106, 11-27-2017 11:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Lilchief:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...rix_Abarth_front.jpg
A little off subject but here's my first fiat, Mine was red.



That's gorgeous!



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #107, 11-27-2017 12:29 PM
      I think that's the first time I've seen a 3.4 V6 snap an axle.

Got Torque?


La fiera MSG #108, 11-27-2017 09:21 PM
     
Getting new axles and wheels bearings!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 11-27-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #109, 11-27-2017 10:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Stock VS Supernatural Intake Manifolds


Stock VS Supernatural Y Pipe

This Y pipe is being upgraded to a lighter and smoother version

Supernatural Heads



Next, lets start to put the engine together!



Still reading but I wanted to get a comment in before i forget...

..... So in porting of the heads, did you end up keeping the fins inside the heads or did you grind them out? Sorry, if this has been asked already just haven't seen it yet.. I'm on page 1😜

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 11-27-2017).]

La fiera MSG #110, 11-27-2017 11:01 PM
      No fins, they are for low to mid range improvement. This build is from mid to top.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 11-27-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #111, 11-27-2017 11:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

The moral behind the story is: Don't do what EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING. Think for yourself and look for ways to improve without following the trends



Word

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 11-27-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #112, 11-28-2017 01:06 AM
      I wanted to suggest another brand of clutch that I haven't had any issues with and it grips great as heck!...local for me in SoCal.. http://www.clutchmasters.com/fiero/ ... I'm actually running a FX350 but I don't see it on their website under our car search. I'm sure they still have it available though. Simple call.. I managed to get a 9-11/16" pressure plate instead of the stock 9-1/8" but I know it's not available anymore through them.. I forget what the compound the clutch is but it doesn't chatter what so ever and is smooth in the shifting.. I need to mention that I have new cables from Rodney dickman and a short throw shifter... my flywheel is the stock 88 but has been decked some to shave the weight.. also 13.4 lbs but I want to stick with the billet steel.. resurfacing by Clutch Masters.. along with replacing the teeth due to 2 broken ones.

------
Also... I'm curious... aren't your side panel scoops functional?.. the reason I ask is that I have modded side scoops (both sides of the car) and I mounted a B&M oil cooler with a temperature controlled fan sitting on the passenger side under the battery box in the well area. 8x8 x1-1/2 with fan inches deep, I think. fit like a glove with some little space left over.. the oil filter may fit as well... it works so well!.. why the trunk?.. I had to fab a bracket but no big deal..


unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #113, 11-28-2017 01:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

No fins, they are for low to mid range improvement. This build is from mid to top.



When I ported my heads... I did a gasket match at the inlet side along with my runners.. and then took the fins down some (but in making them thinner and more to almost a point /peak at the top rather than the thicker rolling mound it was...

The face lift/shaved of Michael Jackson's nose 😜... before an after

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 11-28-2017).]

La fiera MSG #114, 11-28-2017 11:43 AM
      Thanks for the clutch recomendation, they look pretty good. Right now when I flatshift at 5500rpm the clutch I can feel it slip. Taking off and shifting without flatshft is fine but when the flatshift is engaged and I shift thats when it slips, no smells or anything.

I'll get me one of those, thank you very much again!


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #115, 11-28-2017 04:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I think that's the first time I've seen a 3.4 V6 snap an axle.

Got Torque?

I've snapped 3...that I remember...


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #116, 11-28-2017 04:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:
When I ported my heads... I did a gasket match at the inlet side along with my runners.. and then took the fins down some (but in making them thinner and more to almost a point /peak at the top rather than the thicker rolling mound it was...

The face lift/shaved of Michael Jackson's nose 😜... before an after

The fin is there to divert air around the valve stem, there's also a cavity above the fin so some air gets diverted down to near side while side air goes around. When switching to Fiero Store, SI valves, the stem narrows on the combustion end to the narrower diameter of the GEN3 valve stems. The fin can be narrowed a bit as well. With the right guides, the 1.76" intake valve can be used and the opening radiused larger for a bump in compression and flow.


La fiera MSG #117, 11-28-2017 11:10 PM
     

This trypods look better than the stock ones. Hopefully this can last a little longer. New axles and bearings are in, tomorrow I'll torque the hub bearing nuts. I'm beat up!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #118, 11-28-2017 11:54 PM
      What application are those axles from?

You're running the Muncie 4 speed for the V6 with 4.10 gears?

My axle experience: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../000121-18.html#p708

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-28-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #119, 11-29-2017 12:04 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

The fin is there to divert air around the valve stem, there's also a cavity above the fin so some air gets diverted down to near side while side air goes around. When switching to Fiero Store, SI valves, the stem narrows on the combustion end to the narrower diameter of the GEN3 valve stems. The fin can be narrowed a bit as well. With the right guides, the 1.76" intake valve can be used and the opening radiused larger for a bump in compression and flow.


Thanks for the heads up.... I'm actually running the SI valves 😜!... so far so good.. it's breathing well


La fiera MSG #120, 11-29-2017 08:46 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

------
Also... I'm curious... aren't your side panel scoops functional?.. the reason I ask is that I have modded side scoops (both sides of the car) and I mounted a B&M oil cooler with a temperature controlled fan sitting on the passenger side under the battery box in the well area. 8x8 x1-1/2 with fan inches deep, I think. fit like a glove with some little space left over.. the oil filter may fit as well... it works so well!.. why the trunk?.. I had to fab a bracket but no big deal..


I'm modifying the trunk with an air vent and the oil cooler will have a fan drawing air through it.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #121, 11-29-2017 09:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo: Also... I'm curious... aren't your side panel scoops functional?.. the reason I ask is that I have modded side scoops (both sides of the car) and I mounted a B&M oil cooler with a temperature controlled fan sitting on the passenger side under the battery box in the well area. 8x8 x1-1/2 with fan inches deep, I think. fit like a glove with some little space left over.. the oil filter may fit as well... it works so well!.. why the trunk?.. I had to fab a bracket but no big deal..

I agree, the side scoops are perfect places to put an oil cooler. And if your battery is relocated up front, it opens up a perfect place for an oil cooler or intercooler, as well.

That said, I'm interested in seeing how Rei decides to mount his oil cooler.


La fiera MSG #122, 11-29-2017 01:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I agree, the side scoops are perfect places to put an oil cooler. And if your battery is relocated up front, it opens up a perfect place for an oil cooler or intercooler, as well.

That said, I'm interested in seeing how Rei decides to mount his oil cooler.


Well I'm saving the side scoops for something else but the oil cooler will be replaced with a bigger unit that will have its own fan. The trunk part will be an open space and a rear diffuser will take its place.
I'm working on making the entire underside of the car flat bottomed. And the side scoops along with two big NACA ducts in the under plate will be responsible for bringing cool air to the engine compartment.


unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #123, 11-30-2017 01:31 AM
      I wanted to share my cooler just for kicks.....



I get the oil from a sandwich I bought from, I think, Paul's Plumbing.. It's billet aluminum.. I have a large viton o-ring on the block side including a bushing threaded spacer that came with it



Some naked pics.... :| ... And with a homemade bracket to hold it in place..





--------

.....and then,what i like to call...., the black hole :0 ... Lol




With the wheel well installed, it creates an excellent cavity to cup that air.

--->

Some fan faqs------

The cooler's fan turns on at 185 and shuts off at 175, keeping it at a good optimum temperature I think... The fan even continues cooling for 30 seconds after the car turns off..

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 11-30-2017).]

La fiera MSG #124, 11-30-2017 07:23 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

.....and then,what i like to call...., the black hole :0 ... Lol



That's awesome!



mender MSG #125, 11-30-2017 11:05 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:


Where did you get these from and how much were they?


unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #126, 11-30-2017 01:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mender:

Where did you get these from and how much were they?


I actually made them.. sorry.... and they were FREE!.... we'll sort of.. minus my time and fiberglass stuff on top of the original starter panel scoops-- cost way back..around- a little under $400with shipping, I think. -- they're not available to buy anymore that I know of.. at least as a production run. I think the original molds are in Germany somewhere.. before that, was Australia --- AUS Stage II Scoops)

There was a lot of fab work for me.. originally, I had the stage II scoops .. then due to friends having them also, but with the door trim that went with it as a kit.. I wanted to go into a different direction to be original. I refiberglassed the mold to follow the lines of the original GT trim..... then made the scoops to insert..

I don't want to jack this thread though..

I'm really interested in La Fiera's 3.4L hittin 250hp!

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 12-01-2017).]

La fiera MSG #127, 11-30-2017 11:05 PM
     
If I remember right mine is a Mr Gasket adapter. It works pretty good!


unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #128, 12-01-2017 12:57 AM
     
 
quote

If I remember right mine is a Mr Gasket adapter. It works pretty good!


Right!...I saw this a couple pages back.. clean😎... gave me some ideas.. (hope you don't mind).. seriously though; I was like, duh!... I love how everything is just up, out of the way.. especially if I ever get to my dreams..... a belt driven/mounted in the A/C area Supercharger 😜

Nice and hidden from the top side..

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 12-01-2017).]

La fiera MSG #129, 12-01-2017 08:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:


Right!...I saw this a couple pages back.. clean😎... gave me some ideas.. (hope you don't mind).. seriously though; I was like, duh!... I love how everything is just up, out of the way.. especially if I ever get to my dreams..... a belt driven/mounted in the A/C area Supercharger 😜

Nice and hidden from the top side..


What engine you got in your car? It looks pretty clean and like mine everything is wrapped on heat shield!



unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #130, 12-01-2017 09:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

What engine you got in your car? It looks pretty clean and like mine everything is wrapped on heat shield!


The 88's were pretty well equipted with shields and wraps.. I've re wrapped the harness when I had the engine out once before... although, around the exhaust piping (topside), the 88 came with this NASA molded/spot weld/ ugly thing.. I changed it out to have the 87 heat shields. I don't have the blower, though, for the coil so I've taken other percautions to help with that. The lower shield under the firewall side exhaust manifold is stock 88... ...and I "have" to say it's a 2.8L... Cali laws 😏


La fiera MSG #131, 12-02-2017 12:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:
...and I "have" to say it's a 2.8L... Cali laws 😏


Nothing wrong with the 2.8. I don't know if yo know but before my 3.4 I had a wicked 2.8. Check this out:

https://youtu.be/dayXz0arXZ0

In action

https://youtu.be/apPx7Tu3Q9E?t=4m47s

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 12-02-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #132, 12-03-2017 01:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


Nothing wrong with the 2.8. I don't know if yo know but before my 3.4 I had a wicked 2.8. Check this out:

https://youtu.be/dayXz0arXZ0

In action

https://youtu.be/apPx7Tu3Q9E?t=4m47s




I really like the crackle sounds..especially in the supernatural video.. the warm up... were you running a muffler at the time?.. and is it with a catalytic?

Definitely cammed!.. is that a 272 or 260 range? Did you have the full roller rockers too like I saw on the 3.4L?.. interchangeable to both engines of course... curious if the 272 lift was able to mesh with the 1.6 ratio?.. if that's what you have.. I've read that it's too extreme).. I like the 1.6L with the 260 myself.......

What fuel pump are you running?.. mine just went out--AGAIN.. number 2 from Walbro-junk 255. Does yours not reach the full pressure on the 1st turn of the key?.. speaking the supernatural video.. I noticed you turned off and on again the switch

.... you stripped your interior for weight also.. I wonder what the technical weight difference is?....

I love our cars.. cool little racecar for its class.... and yes, this is my go-cart too 😬... just sayin

-------

So what's next in your plans with this 3.4L??.... and the rest of the car

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 12-03-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #133, 12-03-2017 02:02 AM
      I hope you don't mind.. this video is cool too



La fiera MSG #134, 12-03-2017 08:41 AM
      The 260 and 272 cams are smaller than the one my 2.8. The 260 is 204int/216ext duration @.050 and the 272 is 216int/228ext duration @ .050.
The cam on my was 230 @ .050 with .512 lift on 1.6 roller tip rockers. But the heads on the 2.8 as well as the 3.4 are machined to take adventage of the plethora of valve springs of the Small Block Chevy. You must use good springs with big cams

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 12-03-2017).]

La fiera MSG #135, 12-03-2017 07:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

What fuel pump are you running?

So what's next in your plans with this 3.4L??.... and the rest of the car



I was using the stock fuel pump and noticed it had a hard time keeping up with the AFR so I upgraded to a 340GLH. After installment I had to re adjust the fuel pressure. Now the gauge on the regulator is steady, before it was bouncing up and down and the AFR's are steady.

I'm building this car for Time Trials so the next thing will be smoothing out the body for better aero. I want to make it flat bottom. I'm also working on another Supernatural short block to get 300whp with the iron heads that I'd rather not say the displacement because I can already hear all the negativity and harassment, so I'll just do it and show it after its done. Mean time I'll just use the winter months to fine tune this engine and start testing by March.
My motto is "If you didn't try, you've failed because failure is the beginning of success"


La fiera MSG #136, 12-03-2017 07:32 PM
      Today I took a break from the Fiero and installed an upgrade on my '83 Porsche 944, I love driving this sucker!! 128WHP and I can be on the bumper of a Vette through the twisties!!


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #137, 12-03-2017 07:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
I was using the stock fuel pump and noticed it had a hard time keeping up with the AFR so I upgraded to a 340GLH. After installment I had to re adjust the fuel pressure. Now the gauge on the regulator is steady, before it was bouncing up and down and the AFR's are steady.


Did someone check the pressure during a WOT run on a dyno?


La fiera MSG #138, 12-03-2017 07:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Did someone check the pressure during a WOT run on a dyno?


The dyno runs were very erratic without any changes on the software. I could keep my eyes glued to the AFRs and it would oscillate way out of proportion. And yes, I also had someone look at the fuel pressure regulator gauge and he said it bounced so bad he couldn't keep up with it. After the pump was replaced the AFR's and gauge pressure are steady. I don't take chances when I'm on the dyno so I always run dynos on 112 octane in case something goes wrong. I didn't do that with the previous build and it twisted a rod. After that I always run 112. After everything checks out good then I go to 93 octane. My compression is 10.8:1

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 12-03-2017).]

La fiera MSG #139, 12-03-2017 08:18 PM
     


Look closely.


unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #140, 12-04-2017 03:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


The dyno runs were very erratic without any changes on the software. I could keep my eyes glued to the AFRs and it would oscillate way out of proportion. And yes, I also had someone look at the fuel pressure regulator gauge and he said it bounced so bad he couldn't keep up with it. After the pump was replaced the AFR's and gauge pressure are steady. I don't take chances when I'm on the dyno so I always run dynos on 112 octane in case something goes wrong. I didn't do that with the previous build and it twisted a rod. After that I always run 112. After everything checks out good then I go to 93 octane. My compression is 10.8:1



Am I wrong that when talking about octane ---- 87 - 112.... the higher the number, the more delayed in explosion?... not sure if my Dad was right but he always said the higher, the more junk is in the gas to delay the explosion.... so it would be a timing thing to fine tune a certain octane to a certain timing for maximum efficiency?... higher octane, the less advance the timing?

I run 91 with my built Fiero - set at 10*.. but I use 87 for my stock jEEP.. stock ecm setting.. whatever that is

****Can someone explain this?---- no guessing!****



unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #141, 12-04-2017 03:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:




Look closely.


Would this be from a not balanced crank?


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #142, 12-04-2017 04:03 PM
      https://www.bellperformance...oline-Octane-Ratings

Octane explained


mender MSG #143, 12-04-2017 04:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:


Am I wrong that when talking about octane ---- 87 - 112.... the higher the number, the more delayed in explosion?... not sure if my Dad was right but he always said the higher, the more junk is in the gas to delay the explosion.... so it would be a timing thing to fine tune a certain octane to a certain timing for maximum efficiency?... higher octane, the less advance the timing?

I run 91 with my built Fiero - set at 10*.. but I use 87 for my stock jEEP.. stock ecm setting.. whatever that is

****Can someone explain this?---- no guessing!****

Higher octane doesn't change the burn speed, it raises the fuel's auto-ignition point. That means it takes more temp/pressure to light off the mixture without an outside source (spark usually).

Proper timing is set for the engine's characteristics, not the fuel's. Run what the engine wants, both in timing and octane.



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #144, 12-04-2017 05:10 PM
      I see SBC rods in your future.

turbo 3800 MSG #145, 12-04-2017 06:19 PM
      Did you blow the motor already? How many miles you get out of it?

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #146, 12-04-2017 09:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

https://www.bellperformance...oline-Octane-Ratings

Octane explained


This is great.. thanks Daryl.. and mender

----does anyone know if there is a guide / chart somewhere that shows what compression is for what range of octane?.. sorry La Fiera for interrupting your thread... some good advise though!

Anyway, My Fiero is running 9.25:1 compression -- Ross pistons

Edit to say----- I guess my Dad had it right, in a way.. I was wrong when I started talking about timing..

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 12-04-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #147, 12-04-2017 09:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I see SBC rods in your future.


ARI makes a great H beam set also.. all balanced equally when received

http://www.engine-parts.com/index.html


unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #148, 12-04-2017 10:23 PM
      So in research I've seen there are Many charts per octane / compression ratio to be optimum.. my stupidness 😜.. but then I ran into this picture and thought it would fit this thread

La Fiera --- talking back regarding that 2.8L.. and the cam.. how is your powerband with your config now.. 10.8:1 and lobe lift.. is the 3.4L have the same .512 lift?

Mine---- 9.25:1 with the 260cam which is 204*.. my powerband feels at 12-1500+/- pretty much - to 53-5500ish..+/- and will go to 6k




http://garage.grumpysperfor...pression-ratio.9074/

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 12-04-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #149, 12-04-2017 10:48 PM
      112 octane with this chart is way up there in compression.. just a little overkill?.. where does one even purchase the additive to make it that octane? ..... >---rocket fuel----->

Per the chart and your compression.. I don't see any less than 100 octane to be safe?.. no knocking.. not sure if 93 will be okay?


[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 12-04-2017).]

La fiera MSG #150, 12-05-2017 08:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by turbo 3800:

Did you blow the motor already? How many miles you get out of it?


No, the first time It bent a rod and I was just driving it normal. I checked the timing table and it was way too advance I made sure I checked everyting and the timing I sincerely forgot!
When I got home I can hear the rod noise! Not even 50 miles
So I took it out and put new rods and crank. Also re adjusted the timing table and is all good now.



La fiera MSG #151, 12-05-2017 08:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

La Fiera --- talking back regarding that 2.8L.. and the cam.. how is your powerband with your config now.. 10.8:1 and lobe lift.. is the 3.4L have the same .512 lift?



The Supernatural is .533 lift int and ext Right now the engine pulls strong till the rev limiter kckls in at 6400rpm and it gets there pretty quick. I want to try it higher at the dyno so I can see where to set the limiter.


mender MSG #152, 12-05-2017 10:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

112 octane with this chart is way up there in compression.. just a little overkill?.. where does one even purchase the additive to make it that octane? ..... >---rocket fuel----->

Per the chart and your compression.. I don't see any less than 100 octane to be safe?.. no knocking.. not sure if 93 will be okay?





I built an iron head 4.3 with 9.9:1 compression and a stock cam (very mild) for my Astro that I ran on 87 octane all the time. It doesn't hurt that I'm at 3000 feet altitude but no problem down at sea level either.

It depends on the engine. With good prep and good combustion chamber design etc 11:1 is doable, whereas with a poor design (my old '54 Chev 235 for example) the max compression on 87 would be around 9:1.

It gets pretty involved when exploring the fringes and the consequences can be dire, so run a bit more octane than you think it needs until you've thoroughly tested your combo.

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 12-05-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #153, 12-06-2017 02:38 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:





So quick question...---- I guess I've been the question guy lately😐.. Hey!-- bump to the top!

Anyway, what size primaries did you go with here?...... I thought I read somewhere that you were working on them at the time? Are these the new? For the other Y-section picture you posted, that was the old? I can't quite figure how that fits to this header?... long headers a ***** on the firewall side I bet?

and the 3to1 collector.. is that a 2-1/2" out?... after this section, did you route the same as stock for the rest of the pipe?...

any pictures ? ..... what muffler is that in the supernatural vid?.. might as well ask that one too... just get it out of the way --- hollowed out goodness to my ears..... I'm getting to think that mine is too mellow now.. but not like I'll atempt to make another system anytime soon.


La fiera MSG #154, 12-06-2017 09:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:


So quick question...---- I guess I've been the question guy lately😐.. Hey!-- bump to the top!

Anyway, what size primaries did you go with here?...... I thought I read somewhere that you were working on them at the time? Are these the new? For the other Y-section picture you posted, that was the old? I can't quite figure how that fits to this header?... long headers a ***** on the firewall side I bet?

and the 3to1 collector.. is that a 2-1/2" out?... after this section, did you route the same as stock for the rest of the pipe?...

any pictures ? ..... what muffler is that in the supernatural vid?.. might as well ask that one too... just get it out of the way --- hollowed out goodness to my ears..... I'm getting to think that mine is too mellow now.. but not like I'll atempt to make another system anytime soon.


Primaries are 1.5 inches, collectors are 2.24 inches go down to meet a 3 inch pipe, no muffler.


This shot is so you can see the Y pipe installed. Its pretty far from the distributor to avoid cooking the ICM. Also if you look at the header on the trunk side you'll see it covered by a shield, I have the same shield on the firewall and I still have plenty of space from the firewall.


It also gives me plenty of space to work around the trans cables and transmission. The clutch hydraulic cylinder is below it with plenty of clearance. I can take the cylinder very easy with the Y pipe in place


Here is the exit, a 3 inch pipe oval at the tip.

I never had any problems with it, my only complaint is that is a bit heavy because the gauge of the steel is thick.
I have the colletors that attach to the Y pipe on a bracket bolted to the transmission that way the headers don't hold the weight of the Y pipe.
The 3 inch pipe that serves as the final piece is also attached to the engine at the head, no exhaust part is held at the chassis. "If" the engine moves the entire exhaust system moves with it. The next Y pipe will be similar but it will be exiting on the drivers side made out of thin chromoly steel, so it'll be shorter and much lighter.




Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #155, 12-07-2017 07:23 PM
      It is my understanding that changes in valve and ignition timing can allow for lower octane fuel to be used. It isn't just compression ratio that determines the octane requirements. Is this correct?


La fiera MSG #156, 12-07-2017 09:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

It is my understanding that changes in valve and ignition timing can allow for lower octane fuel to be used. It isn't just compression ratio that determines the octane requirements. Is this correct?

You are right. With a motor that has a lot of compression you can install a large camshaft and it will bleed off a bunch of compression and at the same time you can retard the timing to run lower octane with a high compression motor. I use those compression vs octane charts just for reference.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #157, 12-07-2017 11:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

It is my understanding that changes in valve and ignition timing can allow for lower octane fuel to be used. It isn't just compression ratio that determines the octane requirements. Is this correct?

Correct. To be more specific, the engine runs on dynamic compression. Dynamic compression is basically the static compression modified by the valve timing. So for example, a camshaft with lots of duration will reduce the dynamic compression significantly. This is why it's recommended to increase the static compression with a high-performance camshaft. Because you don't want the dynamic compression to get too low.

As a general rule, more dynamic compression requires a higher octane rating. And vice versa. Although cylinder head design can affect this, as well. For example, aluminum cylinder heads tend to run cooler than iron heads. So you can use a little more compression, or a lower octane rating, or a combination of the two.

[edit to replace the word "overlap" with "duration"]

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-11-2017).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #158, 12-11-2017 04:20 PM
      Well... it's actually a late intake valve closing event that modifies dynamic compression. That has nothing to do with overlap.

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #159, 12-11-2017 08:42 PM
      Either you misunderstood what I said, or you're trolling... not sure which.

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #160, 12-11-2017 09:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Either you misunderstood what I said, or you're trolling... not sure which.


More like you misunderstood dynamic compression.

See the Atkinson cycle.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #161, 12-11-2017 10:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Either you misunderstood what I said, or you're trolling... not sure which.


IVC is on the opposite end of the intake valve event from IVO... which is where overlap occurs.
IVC dictates dynamic compression.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #162, 12-11-2017 10:38 PM
      Option #3: I had a brain fart. You're absolutely correct. I meant to write 'duration' but accidentally put 'overlap' instead. Because camshafts with lots of duration usually have later IVC timing. (they also have more overlap )

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-12-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #163, 12-12-2017 01:26 AM
      Is there a formula to find out what your compression is supposed to be verses doing an actual compression test? A formula for Static compression and dynamic compression.. since they are different

La fiera MSG #164, 12-12-2017 08:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

Is there a formula to find out what your compression is supposed to be verses doing an actual compression test? A formula for Static compression and dynamic compression.. since they are different


Divide your compression test results by 14.7 or whatever altitude air pressure you are at. That will give you an idea of what you have.



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #165, 12-12-2017 12:42 PM
      ^ Yep

Ambient air pressure is 14.7 PSI at sea level, less at higher altitudes. Divide your compression test results by the ambient air pressure and that will give you the dynamic compression.

If you don't have a compression gauge or don't want to bother, you can estimate your DCR with this calculator: http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php

Note that you'll need to know the intake valve closing spec for your camshaft, in order to use the calculator.


La fiera MSG #166, 12-16-2017 08:40 PM
     

Just waiting to go back to the dyno to prove 250WHP on iron heads. I think I'm taking it for a ride tomorrow!


unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #167, 12-17-2017 12:46 PM
      Looking forward to it!.... maybe a video recording of the breakthrough record as it's done?

Edit to say----> don't lose your flashlight πŸ‘€

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 12-17-2017).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #168, 12-17-2017 01:29 PM
      ----- so just to keep track on this thread

What did you add / subtract from the last dyno to the new dyno run coming up?....

The new Y-pipe section for the exhaust... right?... anything else?


La fiera MSG #169, 12-17-2017 06:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

----- so just to keep track on this thread

What did you add / subtract from the last dyno to the new dyno run coming up?....

The new Y-pipe section for the exhaust... right?... anything else?


Upgraded injectors and fuel pump. And then this happens...............!!!



Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #170, 12-17-2017 06:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by unboundmo:

Looking forward to it!.... maybe a video recording of the breakthrough record as it's done?


x2



La fiera MSG #171, 12-17-2017 06:37 PM
     


Got my injectors and fuel pump a couple of weeks ago and did some bench tuning to the Mega Squirt. Eager to drive it since two weeks ago today is the perfect day to go for a ride and fine tune the software to the new injectors and pump upgrade. The engine feels very strong!! Leaving my driveway sideways and trying to avoid the mailbox on my way out I went up the hill controlling a four wheel drift, the best feeling ever!! I tamed the beast and kept driving on third gear while turning on "Auto Tune" on the MegaSquirt so it can do its thing and get me close to where the car should be.
I get to a light and stopped. Light turns green and I gently hit the throttle and the sticky Toyos light up and the car goes sideways, shift to second and its still sideways!! I let off and hit the throttle again to keep the car in a straight line and is all good when I noticed a wining sound, like if I had straight cut gears! I got to a gas station and look underneath and see oil pouring out my trans.
Drove it home and the wining noise was very loud while in gear, in neutral there was no noise. I made it home fine. I jacked the car up and and saw this long crack on the trans housing!! I just laught!!

Anybody selling an M19? Does anyone knows of somebody who makes straight cut gears for this tranny?


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #172, 12-17-2017 06:49 PM
     
Ouch!


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #173, 12-17-2017 08:20 PM
      The weak point on the 4-speed Muncie is the outer casing. Other gearboxes (like the HM282, F23, etc) have reinforcing ribs on the outer casing. I'd suggest upgrading to a later HM282 ('93 and up with the stronger differential housing) or the F23.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #174, 12-17-2017 09:40 PM
      Second driveline component you've blown up in a month... I would call this the MOAB of clue bombs.

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #175, 12-17-2017 09:57 PM
      You need the Muncie M17 (85-86 V6) gearbox case. M17 cases have ribs cast into the case to make it stronger than the M19 case.

Inside the case, you may use whatever* combination of M17 and M19 shafts/gears you like.

*Not all combinations of gears/shafts are possible. When you have the parts laid out in front of you, the allowable parts combinations will be easy to see.

The input shaft, output shaft, and differential are all supported by tapered roller bearings at each end. Axial preload is fine-tuned by a shim on the outer race.

Once you have chosen your parts, use the J-26935 tool (available on ebay) to help you choose the correct shim to preload the bearings correctly.


La fiera MSG #176, 12-17-2017 10:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

You need the Muncie M17 (85-86 V6) gearbox case. M17 cases have ribs cast into the case to make it stronger than the M19 case.

Inside the case, you may use whatever* combination of M17 and M19 shafts/gears you like.

*Not all combinations of gears/shafts are possible. When you have the parts laid out in front of you, the allowable parts combinations will be easy to see.

The input shaft, output shaft, and differential are all supported by tapered roller bearings at each end. Axial preload is fine-tuned by a shim on the outer race.

Once you have chosen your parts, use the J-26935 tool (available on ebay) to help you choose the correct shim to preload the bearings correctly.


Thanks for the info! I have the original M17 trans here. I'll take the M19 out an see what I can salvage out of it. Thanks again!!



La fiera MSG #177, 12-18-2017 07:15 AM
      OK, got my hands on a F23. What else do I need? I saw some kind of adapter on the mall (Thelin) What is that for?
Shifter, mounts and cables, where do I get them?

Thanks


mender MSG #178, 12-18-2017 11:39 AM
      This might help:
F23 swap

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 12-18-2017).]

La fiera MSG #179, 12-18-2017 08:07 PM
      After doing some research and reading about the F23 I decided not to do it. If somebody made a kit to drop the F23 in flawlessly I'd do it but that is not the case.
To keep things simple I decided to take PMbrunelle advice on swapping cases from the stronger M19, I already ordedred the shim tool to do it.
The bad thing is that I thought I had an M17 but what I have is a MY8 because the case is smooth just like the one in the M19. I say is a MY8 because of I remember 4th gear being VERY tall compared to what I have now. So now I'm looking for a M17 trans, anybody has one?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #180, 12-18-2017 10:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


Thanks for the info! I have the original M17 trans here. I'll take the M19 out an see what I can salvage out of it. Thanks again!!


You said you'd swapped in the 4.10 gears, but I didn't realize you swapped the entire transmission. I would have cautioned you about that.

Use the V6 first & second, as the first is taller and second is stronger than the 4 cylinder gears. IIRC, both boxes have the same 3rd & 4th ratios, although due to detail differences in assembly, those have to stay with their respective output shafts.

I've built a 3.32 V6/Econo Muncie, so I've been inside a couple of those gearboxes before. They're stunningly, even ingeniously, simple.



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #181, 12-21-2017 11:06 AM
      You could go to Archie's F40 6 speed. I have. I've snapped 3 axles but 2 of them were the Fiero outer housing. One was the inner Cobalt SS. I'm running 315mm wide tires with 100 treadware and I've been doing ~50 hard launches per year since ~2011...

La fiera MSG #182, 12-21-2017 04:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

You could go to Archie's F40 6 speed. I have. I've snapped 3 axles but 2 of them were the Fiero outer housing. One was the inner Cobalt SS. I'm running 315mm wide tires with 100 treadware and I've been doing ~50 hard launches per year since ~2011...


Lou you're a BEAST!!



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #183, 12-22-2017 12:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Lou you're a BEAST!!

I'm just saying that transmission was built for a 290ft*lbs 3900 motor so it holds up pretty good and Archie's kit uses modified for length (turbo) Cobalt SS axles with Fiero outers. So save your Fiero outers...that's the weak link if you go in that direction.
I love cruising in 6th gear on the way to the track...but I guess I'm different... I did switch to an aluminum flywheel but you're still bolting it to a roughly 1" aluminum spacer to work with the Fiero clutch (SPEC 3+). SPEC is inconsistent with clutch package thicknesses so Archie builds the spacer after measuring what he received from SPEC...


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #184, 12-22-2017 12:56 PM
      I am just wondering if any of these transmisions will stand up to the stress of welded spider gears. Stock cars use welded spider gears but this is in a steel pumpkin with a lot more structural strength.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #185, 12-22-2017 04:20 PM
      Splitting the case where it split was definitely from him driving like an idiot. That split is from axial thrust due to the helix angle of the gears... IOW, he just dropped the clutch too hard too many times.

I'd expect axle, diff carrier or side gear failures from welded spider gears, but not case failures.


La fiera MSG #186, 12-22-2017 07:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Splitting the case where it split was definitely from him driving like an idiot. That split is from axial thrust due to the helix angle of the gears... IOW, he just dropped the clutch too hard too many times.

I'd expect axle, diff carrier or side gear failures from welded spider gears, but not case failures.


Will, please don't call NO ONE an idiot, it shows your foolishness and immaturity. You sound like a very intelligent person but I know for experience that INTELLIGENT people can be stupid, in the contrary a WISE person will never be stupid. You get wisdom over time, it'll come to you one day.

Now, I'm a road course driver not a drag racer. In circuit racing dropping the clutch or power shifting does nothing. I personally take my time shifting to make sure I'm gentle with my equipment. I have never dropped the clutch in any of my cars, that puts a lot of stress on the driveline parts. Lou's kind of racing I understand, the clutch definitely has to be dropped for him to be fast because he can't afford wasting time. As a matter of fact I opted for the bigger camshaft to decrease torque from low to mid and move the power up in the RPM range to be gentle on the equipment.
One thing I tell you and I agree with you on, is the way the case failed. This transmission was taken apart by someone and I can guarantee you he didn't check the pre load on the bearings.
The reason why I say that is because I always thought that the axial play on the shafts was abnormal compared to the MY8. The fact that the case split is proof that my suspicion was correct.
When the trans failed I was not even past 3500 RPMs. It was just doomed to happen. I'm just glad that it didn't happened going into a corner at 130 MPH and downshifting, that would've been a disaster.
I purchased the Kent Moore tool like PMBRUNELLE adviced so when I take the diff to get welded again I can set the preload on the bearings.

But Will, keep your positive criticism which I welcome with open arms, it makes my build better. Thank you very much Will! You are the man!!



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #187, 12-24-2017 11:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Leaving my driveway sideways and trying to avoid the mailbox on my way out I went up the hill controlling a four wheel drift, the best feeling ever!!
Light turns green and I gently hit the throttle and the sticky Toyos light up and the car goes sideways, shift to second and its still sideways!! I let off and hit the throttle again to keep the car in a straight line and is all good when I noticed a wining sound, like if I had straight cut gears!


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

I personally take my time shifting to make sure I'm gentle with my equipment. I have never dropped the clutch in any of my cars, that puts a lot of stress on the driveline parts.


Things that make you go "Hmmmm...."

Aluminum work hardens. Over time multiple loading events that push the material just a little bit into the plastic strain range add up to nucleate a fatigue crack, which then grows. The fact that you were under 3500 RPM when it failed doesn't mean anything, because the history of all previous loading events is what led the transmission to fail at that moment.

The fact that the case split at that location in that direction actually contra-indicates bearing preload. If you'd scraped all the teeth off a gear or split the case at one end around the bearing bosses, then it might be related to improper preload.
It really is a case of too many clutch drops. Maybe not all of them are yours, but the parts tell the story.

If you're going to keep driving like that, especially with a welded diff, I strongly recommend the F23, as modern FEA design techniques have resulted in a far stronger and more optimized case.

The F23 from a Saturn Vue has a 4.47 final and a fifth gear in the 0.8's. Get one of those, because racecar, and swap the V6 bellhousing onto it.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-24-2017).]

mender MSG #188, 12-24-2017 11:58 AM
      Torque reversals (on-off throttle abruptly) are hard on parts and basically jack-hammer the internals. That's why brake-hop with slicks can split a Ford 9" nodular housing on a road course car when it normally would have no issues.

I vote for the F23 as well, I'm switching to that from the 282 Getrag, and I'm keeping an eye out for a Vue for the gearing.


La fiera MSG #189, 12-24-2017 02:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mender:

Torque reversals (on-off throttle abruptly) are hard on parts and basically jack-hammer the internals. That's why brake-hop with slicks can split a Ford 9" nodular housing on a road course car when it normally would have no issues.

I vote for the F23 as well, I'm switching to that from the 282 Getrag, and I'm keeping an eye out for a Vue for the gearing.


I totally agree with you Mender. I built my engine with 3 things in mine because of the type of racing I wanted to do:

1- Throttle Response. I wanted INSTANT response and tha'st how exactly the engine is. Mechanically and electronically I've tuned the entire package to do just that. Is like the time it takes your brain to command to blink, there is no lag.

2-Good Power. No bragging on the power, I didn't want and LS4 because is has a larger mass and its heavier and that would make the car more difficult to handle so I decided to stay with the V6 60* and set a goal of 250WHP. That would make my power to weight ratio very competitive. Also in the rulebook there is a heavier penalty if I opted for the LS4 or any other V8 powerplant.

3. Power Delivery. Like throttle response I also wanted that power to be delivered instantly. If looking at a graph and power delivery was represented as a smooth and long sine wave that was not what I was looking for. I wanted sharp and vertical line going up on power on and a sharp line going down on decel.

As you can see it is not your average build where people look for a streetable car. And taking all three main aspects of the build I can see where Mender is coming from. The on and off the throttle and the way the power is delivered were the reason that contributed to a rapid failure not the clutch drops like Will indicated because I don't do that.

The streetabiliy percentage of my car is only about 15% and thats the way I wanted it. The seat has no padding, its a bare aluminum racing seat from an midget sprint car, I want to be able to feel everything on my but, so I can drive it the best I can and enjoy the ride.

But like Will suggested on that 4.41 F23 sounds like a very good option. I'll start looking into it I wish that someone made a kit of mounts and cables to make it easier to adapt.



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #190, 12-26-2017 02:36 PM
      The main reason I have gone with bigger than what is needed is so that I don't have to go back and replace things.
When I was still using 16x8 wheels with 255 wide tires, my 12" brakes were overkill. However, I had a Fiero caliper stick at lock up on me in 2001 and it made me hit the wall head on and I totaled a perfect 88GT at the track.
After going to 17x10 much heavier wheels+tire combination, 12" just do an adequate job...but at least I know they won't lock up. Same went with the decision to go to the F40 6 speed.
If there's one thing I can say is other than some time off in 2014 waiting for an engine installation, I've been at the track every time ready to race since 2011.

If you look at one of Fieroguru's threads, there's a way to change the gearing of the F40...at least you won't be breaking it...
...maybe...

NOTE: it was stock brakes and a sticky front right caliper that locked up on me and turned me into the concrete wall when I tapped the brakes at speed on a curve... Switched to the Rayne/HELD/Arraut 12" Wilwood kit after that...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 12-27-2017).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #191, 12-31-2017 05:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

As you can see it is not your average build where people look for a streetable car. And taking all three main aspects of the build I can see where Mender is coming from. The on and off the throttle and the way the power is delivered were the reason that contributed to a rapid failure not the clutch drops like Will indicated because I don't do that.



Mender was really talking about wheel hop.
Aggressive throttle response isn't any more detrimental to drivelines than less aggressive throttle response.
Your transmission broke because you were driving the 4 cylinder transmission too hard.


Here's how I broke an axle: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../000121-18.html#p708

That was in a car with 300 WHP and the same torque, going for a 1.7 second 60 foot time, WITH some wheel hop.
Notice the VHT on the tire.
I asked about your axle breaking because that's very unusual outside of a drag strip environment. Judging from the failures you've experienced, your driving style, especially with the welded diff, is VERY hard on your equipment.


La fiera MSG #192, 02-20-2018 09:32 PM
      https://youtu.be/o7a7_ZcC2jk

Nice day out and wanted to share the love! Pump up the volume!!! Just for giggles!!\


Erwin03 MSG #193, 02-22-2018 01:48 PM
      STUNNING!!!!

Respect for the work and the aspirated engine, I can only imagine how much fun your fiero is to drive.

What is the weight of the car?


La fiera MSG #194, 02-22-2018 03:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Erwin03:

STUNNING!!!!

Respect for the work and the aspirated engine, I can only imagine how much fun your fiero is to drive.

What is the weight of the car?


Thanks Erwing! Right now it weights 2170lbs



Erwin03 MSG #195, 02-22-2018 03:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


Thanks Erwing! Right now it weights 2170lbs


Really? Wow.. that is under 1000 kg! (984 to be exact) My goal is to take my Notch down to 1100 kg so that must be more than doable maybe I can even go under that.

Beautiful build and I am so curious to see what you will do in the wheelarch extender department.
(really curious about bumperpad notchback aerodynamics)


La fiera MSG #196, 02-22-2018 03:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Erwin03:


Really? Wow.. that is under 1000 kg! (984 to be exact) My goal is to take my Notch down to 1100 kg so that must be more than doable maybe I can even go under that.

Beautiful build and I am so curious to see what you will do in the wheelarch extender department.
(really curious about bumperpad notchback aerodynamics)


I'm working on a nose design to add more downforce on the front and flat-bottom the entire car. For that I have to revise the exhaust to be tucked inside.
I want to make it look like a 1980's Group 5 racer.




Erwin03 MSG #197, 02-22-2018 04:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
I'm working on a nose design to add more downforce on the front and flat-bottom the entire car. For that I have to revise the exhaust to be tucked inside.
I want to make it look like a 1980's Group 5 racer.



Ah the BMW M1.. nice..
I love the way your car looks now to, but am curious to see what you come up with!


La fiera MSG #198, 02-22-2018 05:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Erwin03:


Ah the BMW M1.. nice..
I love the way your car looks now to, but am curious to see what you come up with!
Th
Well it won't be as aggressive as that M1 but kind off. But I want work on the nose and the flat-bottom first and see how it handles and then work at the back.

The nose is going to look something like this;


Right now I have no head lights so with this style I can integrate some similar head lights.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 02-22-2018).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #199, 02-22-2018 06:08 PM
      Back in the mid / late 1980s, GM ran some "Fieros" in the LeMans circuit. They were called Fieros, but in reality had almost nothing in common with a real Fiero. Here's a photo of one:



So maybe you could draw some inspiration from another Fiero!


La fiera MSG #200, 02-22-2018 10:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Erwin03:


Ah the BMW M1.. nice..
I love the way your car looks now to, but am curious to see what you come up with!
Th
Well it won't be as aggressive as that M1 but kind off. But I want work on the nose and the flat-bottom first and see how it handles and then work at the back.

The nose is going to look something like this;


Right now I have no head lights so with this style I can integrate some similar head lights.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, That is a Spice Fiero. British built but with the Super Duty 4 cylinder engine N/A. You can read the article from a a book that I have on IMSA GTP cars that I have. Here it is!
I tried to make it as big as possible so you can read it.You have got to read this if you want more Fiero history!

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 02-22-2018).]

La fiera MSG #201, 04-12-2018 07:46 PM
     
I took the cover off my Fiero to look at how much space I have to see if I can pull the trans from the top and leave the engine in place, and while measuring I found this crack on the other side of the trans that I didn't see before! This means that the crack went all around! I'm thankful it didn't completely came apart while I was driving!


La fiera MSG #202, 04-30-2018 09:58 PM
     

On previous track events the alternator stopped charging. After some investigating I found out I was over revving it. After some calculations I was able to dial the alternator gear ratio to produce max amps at the max RPMS without stressing it and also saving me some power in between! Sorry for the lateness but a broken transmission is hindering me from proving a strategic built 3.4 push rod is capable to make over 250WHP.

edit for spelling

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 04-30-2018).]

Spadesluck MSG #203, 04-30-2018 11:53 PM
      Cracking the trans case like that is impressive. What impresses me is the trans was still working right?

[This message has been edited by Spadesluck (edited 04-30-2018).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #204, 05-01-2018 10:30 AM
      Now imagine how badly your water pump is cavitating at high RPM. This is why I use an underdrive pulley on my engine (plus a couple extra HP at high RPM).

La fiera MSG #205, 05-01-2018 11:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Now imagine how badly your water pump is cavitating at high RPM. This is why I use an underdrive pulley on my engine (plus a couple extra HP at high RPM).


Yes Mike, I'm working on installing an electric water pump to save some ponies. I also have an underdrive pulley on the crank and just got an overdrive pulley for he alternator. The only test I have to do is the amps at idle which I'll do today. The pump I'll use draws 11-13 amps at full flow. Did I mention I have a 220Amp alternator?


Spadesluck MSG #206, 05-01-2018 12:36 PM
      Thats a big amp for a race setup. I would think you would not need that many amps for track day. You are not running a radio, ac, and other creature comforts that requires amps.

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #207, 05-01-2018 01:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera: Yes Mike, I'm working on installing an electric water pump to save some ponies.

Cool! What type of pump are you using? Too bad there aren't any "bolt-on" electric water pumps for the 60-degree V6.


La fiera MSG #208, 05-01-2018 02:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

Thats a big amp for a race setup. I would think you would not need that many amps for track day. You are not running a radio, ac, and other creature comforts that requires amps.


Yes it is a lot but as the alternator gets hot it produces less amps. So that's why I got this one.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #209, 05-01-2018 02:39 PM
      My plan is to do away with the alternator for racing. I bought a 100AH Battleborn LiFePO4 battery. Should let me drive to the track, race and drive home. I'm going to rig a 12v battery charge controller and 100W solar panel to keep it charged up between events... Heck, if you come up with a good solution for electric water pump, I'd get a 2nd battery to run that...

I'm hoping I can install one of those electric water pump drive kits where the alternator would have been to drive the stock water pump...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 05-01-2018).]

La fiera MSG #210, 05-05-2018 10:29 PM
     
This is my Alt. melting at high RPM even with the alt. fan working. So, as you can see I have to improve airflow to the alternator!


This was my alt. pulley.


This is my alternator pulley now. It's overdriven to lighten load throughout the entire RPM.

Electric water pump set up will be next.

PS. Waiting for the Limited slip diff for my other M19. F23 will have to wait. Can't believe that one mount not available in a kit will prevent me to use the F23 now. I'll save the F23 for the 300WHP Supernatural and hopefully by that time a rear mount will be available, If not I'll me my own kit.


FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #211, 05-08-2018 09:53 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Electric water pump set up will be next.


For sustained RPM usage keep this in mind:
Following the 1/3,1/3,1/3 rule ( of total chemical power, 1/3 goes to the shaft, 1/3 goes to the exhaust, 1/3 goes to the coolant), this is often a typical starting point for system sizing. And 20 Deg F is the usual temp rise across an engine.

250 HP = 10602 BTU/Min

Flow (GPM) = Heat Rejection (BTU/Min) / [ Delta T (F) x Specific Heat (BTU/lb*F) x Density (lb/gal) ]

72 GPM = 10602 BTU/Min / [ 20F x .85 BTU/lb*F x 8.6 lb/gal ] (this is for 50/50 glycol/water)

Don't expect any electric water pump to cool very well at sustained high RPM circuit driving.
A standard 55GPM remote pump is capable of cooling an average sustained power level of 189 HP

[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 05-08-2018).]

La fiera MSG #212, 05-08-2018 12:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:


For sustained RPM usage keep this in mind:
Following the 1/3,1/3,1/3 rule ( of total chemical power, 1/3 goes to the shaft, 1/3 goes to the exhaust, 1/3 goes to the coolant), this is often a typical starting point for system sizing. And 20 Deg F is the usual temp rise across an engine.

250 HP = 10602 BTU/Min

Flow (GPM) = Heat Rejection (BTU/Min) / [ Delta T (F) x Specific Heat (BTU/lb*F) x Density (lb/gal) ]

72 GPM = 10602 BTU/Min / [ 20F x .85 BTU/lb*F x 8.6 lb/gal ] (this is for 50/50 glycol/water)

Don't expect any electric water pump to cool very well at sustained high RPM circuit driving.
A standard 55GPM remote pump is capable of cooling an average sustained power level of 189 HP




Straight water has nearly TWICE the heat transfer capacity as glycol-based antifreeze, and nearly 50% more heat transfer capacity than a 50/50 mix. This causes cooling systems containing glycol to run hotter. Heat is transferred from engine cylinder heads to coolant, and then from coolant to the external environment via the radiator.
That formula completely changes if straight water with a good anticorrosive additive is us used and add to that an oversized heat exchanger.



FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #213, 05-08-2018 02:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Straight water has nearly TWICE the heat transfer capacity as glycol-based antifreeze, and nearly 50% more heat transfer capacity than a 50/50 mix. This causes cooling systems containing glycol to run hotter. Heat is transferred from engine cylinder heads to coolant, and then from coolant to the external environment via the radiator.
That formula completely changes if straight water with a good anticorrosive additive is us used and add to that an oversized heat exchanger.


That's just not true.

These all vary by temperature, but on average, for the ranges that concern us currently:

-Straight water has a specific heat of 1 BTU/lbF

-50/50 Glycol mix has a specific hear of 0.85 BTU/lbF

That is 15% less heat capacity, not 50%.

-The density of straight water is 8.1 lb/Gal

-The density of 50/50 is 8.6 lb/Gal

The volumetric heat capacity:
-Water: 8.1 BTU/GalF
-50/50: 7.31 BTU/GalF

That is a 10% difference in heat capacity by volume

Straight water:

65.4GPM needed flow for 250HP.

I edited this to remove my slightly complex response.
A radiator helps, but isn't the cure for a insufficient pump, which is most critical when duty cycle increases.

[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 05-08-2018).]

Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #214, 05-08-2018 03:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


I took the cover off my Fiero to look at how much space I have to see if I can pull the trans from the top and leave the engine in place, and while measuring I found this crack on the other side of the trans that I didn't see before! This means that the crack went all around! I'm thankful it didn't completely came apart while I was driving!


If you are making more than 200 ft lbs of torque you exceed the design limits of a Fiero manual transmission. I've seen many a Getrag and 4 speed blown in high demand applications. Also consider those boxes are 30+ years old. You can drop the trans leaving the engine in place and without dropping the entire cradle. You remove the tire and left strut, support the engine with a jack and hold in place w a 2 x 4 piece of wood, unbolt trans mounts, lower the rear of the cradle down just enough with a floor jack, disconnect clutch cylinder and shift linkage, remove trans bolts and pull the unit out of the left wheel house.



La fiera MSG #215, 05-08-2018 04:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


If you are making more than 200 ft lbs of torque you exceed the design limits of a Fiero manual transmission. I've seen many a Getrag and 4 speed blown in high demand applications. Also consider those boxes are 30+ years old. You can drop the trans leaving the engine in place and without dropping the entire cradle. You remove the tire and left strut, support the engine with a jack and hold in place w a 2 x 4 piece of wood, unbolt trans mounts, lower the rear of the cradle down just enough with a floor jack, disconnect clutch cylinder and shift linkage, remove trans bolts and pull the unit out of the left wheel house.



Thanks Dennis



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #216, 05-08-2018 05:24 PM
      I would not trust a 2x4 to hold up the engine. I would suggest 2x6 minimum.

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #217, 05-08-2018 07:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I would not trust a 2x4 to hold up the engine. I would suggest 2x6 minimum.


A good quality 2x6 should be ok (good grade without knots), but it must be held vertically.
Using a square 6x6 would easily resolve the issue of having the 2x6 fall over on its side.

There must be electric water pumps that are big enough to meet the needs of track driving, no?


La fiera MSG #218, 05-08-2018 08:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:


That's just not true.

These all vary by temperature, but on average, for the ranges that concern us currently:

-Straight water has a specific heat of 1 BTU/lbF

-50/50 Glycol mix has a specific hear of 0.85 BTU/lbF

That is 15% less heat capacity, not 50%.

-The density of straight water is 8.1 lb/Gal

-The density of 50/50 is 8.6 lb/Gal

The volumetric heat capacity:
-Water: 8.1 BTU/GalF
-50/50: 7.31 BTU/GalF

That is a 10% difference in heat capacity by volume

Straight water:

65.4GPM needed flow for 250HP.

I edited this to remove my slightly complex response.
A radiator helps, but isn't the cure for a insufficient pump, which is most critical when duty cycle increases.




Your calculations are very good! In paper they look good with fixed variables, but if I change some fixed variables like a bigger radiator and oil cooler it's like changing the fixed variable "speed of light" in "c" in the E=mc2 formula and then everything changes.
I don't think I'll have a problem because the same electric pump I'll be using has been tried in another 240WHP turbo Time Attack car and the Aussie never had a problem.
But but if I do, which could happened because I can be wrong, I'll pull out the big guns. I'll increase the radiator capacity by tripling it with this radiator and a bigger oil cooler. This is a radiator from a 850HP Nascar, specifically from Kyle Bush's car. (I don't like him).
Got it for free from a friend that works for him as a fabricator. I'll also run the system in a "reverse flow" for better efficiency.

By the way, I tried the bigger pulley on the alternator and holy moly!!!! The engine revs so fast that my cheap tach can't react fast enough, it reads to 5000rpm and it misses.
As I looked at the MegaSquirt tach on the laptop it hits 7000rpm and misses. That miss is the rev limiter cutting spark and fuel!
Also it went from idling at 1100rpm to 1500rpm, definitely an increase in power.
The alt volts at 1500rpm are 12.5 but as soon as I touch the throttle pedal it jumps to 14.7 past 3000rpm. I snap the throttle half way and it hits the rev limiter!


La fiera MSG #219, 05-16-2018 10:45 PM
     
Some progress. New size battery installed!


La fiera MSG #220, 05-22-2018 06:33 PM
     

My limited slip came today!


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #221, 05-22-2018 07:29 PM
      So your Fiero has LSD! Far out!

La fiera MSG #222, 05-22-2018 11:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

So your Fiero has LSD! Far out!


I know. These guys are from Serbia and they have very good reputation with the European crowd. Their design is so much better than Phantom Grip, no shavings on your trans.
I don't want to keep breaking axles and trannys.



La fiera MSG #223, 06-17-2018 10:06 PM
      Just to give some updates!

Got the material to make a flat bottom to increase down force with less drag.


I know! "Are you still with a distributor?" I get that question asked a lot.
This Pertronix box gives you multiple sparks all the way to redline. Unlike the MSD's that will give you multiple spark until 3000rpms! Throttle response is awesome!!
This weekend I'm going to Florida for vacation and to pick up my trans. I'll meet Fiero enthusiast and friend Blacktree to do some work on the newly acquiered trans. Then is a matter to install it in the car. Can't wait! Should be hitting the Dyno soon!!


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #224, 06-18-2018 01:16 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
I know! "Are you still with a distributor?" I get that question asked a lot.
This Pertronix box gives you multiple sparks all the way to redline. Unlike the MSD's that will give you multiple spark until 3000rpms! Throttle response is awesome!!


Did you have any misfires with the HEI module?



La fiera MSG #225, 06-18-2018 09:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Did you have any misfires with the HEI module?


What do you mean? I had misfires only when playing with the spark plug gap. Once I set the right gap it revs clean and crispy.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 06-18-2018).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #226, 06-18-2018 11:10 AM
      Just out of curiosity, what is your spark plug gap?

I'm currently using 0.045" gap, which is the spec for the 3.4 V6 in the F-Body. Anything larger causes misfires and sooty spark plugs. Haven't tried smaller yet.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 06-18-2018).]

La fiera MSG #227, 06-18-2018 02:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Just out of curiosity, what is your spark plug gap?

I'm currently using 0.045" gap, which is the spec for the 3.4 V6 in the F-Body. Anything larger causes misfires and sooty spark plugs. Haven't tried smaller yet.



I've been running .050 with the small MSD anything bigger than that and it misfires at high RPMS After I installed this Pertronix box I haven't play with the gap.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 06-18-2018).]

Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #228, 06-21-2018 07:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I would not trust a 2x4 to hold up the engine. I would suggest 2x6 minimum.


You need to remove the trans mounts and need a way to hold up the engine. I've used an 8" piece of 2 x 4 between the starter and the cradle to do this. Maybe not an ideal way but it works. This is the way Ed Parks at the Fiero Factory did it.



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #229, 06-22-2018 08:32 AM
      Yeah with a better/stonger ignition you can increase the gap, that's why DIS on a 3.4 used a .060 gap but distributors call for .045 ... however when you increase compression ratio, you have to decrease the gap slightly to compensate. For instance, my DIS 3.4 has about 10:1 CR and I run ~ .053 gap.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #230, 06-25-2018 08:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:



My limited slip came today!


Umm... Hmm...

That's just really just a peg-leg burnout preventer.


La fiera MSG #231, 06-25-2018 09:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Umm... Hmm...

That's just really just a peg-leg burnout preventer.






Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #232, 06-26-2018 06:51 PM
      Just that it's not exactly a limited slip because the bias torque is constant and has no relationship to throughput torque.

La fiera MSG #233, 06-26-2018 08:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Just that it's not exactly a limited slip because the bias torque is constant and has no relationship to throughput torque.


I know Will, this is just a band aid so I can enjoy my car for a bit and get it right. After feeling how my Fiero handled with the locked diff I don't think I'll be satisfied with this thing or a real (Quaife) limited slip. Real man drive locked diff cars. LOL. The MG3 F23 will have the diff locked.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 06-26-2018).]

Notorio MSG #234, 08-11-2018 06:03 PM
      I haven't really been following your build but it popped up in a search today. How's the project going? When you finish up it would be awesome to summarize the build w/list of mods you kept and rejected (if any) Thx.

La fiera MSG #235, 08-12-2018 08:55 PM
      Thanks Notorious!

Right now I'm waiting on the transmission. The tranny shop seems to be very busy, you know how these NASCAR shops are, hopefully I'll get it soon.
Meantime I'm working on some other upgrades to save some HP to increase the output to meet my goal and they will be revealed once the project is finished.
I'll do a series of short detailed videos showing how I achieved it.
Thank you for reaching out and keep checking this thread!

PS.
Check out this other thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/140750.html
This one is basically the same as the 3.4 using everything from it except with more displacement. I just finished the block yesterday it's just a matter of putting everything together.


La fiera MSG #236, 11-20-2018 07:57 PM
     

Finally got my my stuff all at once! The tranny shop was very busy, the place I order the mounts and shifter fixture was also very busy but both of them did a good job!
So, this long weekend I plan to get the trans ready to go in and get the car ready to start removing the broken trans! I got some family coming so you know how that goes!

Stay tuned!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #237, 11-21-2018 09:26 AM
      You dropping that straight in with 3.94 gears?

Whose shifter kit is that? The Thelin kit doesn't work with a V6 exhaust crossover pipe.
Neither does the oil fill, for that matter.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-21-2018).]

La fiera MSG #238, 11-21-2018 10:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

You dropping that straight in with 3.94 gears?

Whose shifter kit is that? The Thelin kit doesn't work with a V6 exhaust crossover pipe.
Neither does the oil fill, for that matter.



Yes, with the 3.94 gears. Kit is from WCF and I'm doing new SS exhaust on the car as well.



Tha Driver MSG #239, 11-21-2018 12:28 PM
      Have you considered a six-into-one header? Would be a real pain to build but would have to be worth a few ponies...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts


La fiera MSG #240, 11-21-2018 08:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Tha Driver:

Have you considered a six-into-one header? Would be a real pain to build but would have to be worth a few ponies...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts


Yes Paul! I thought about that by my concern is heat management. The main reason I'm re-routing-doing my Y pipe is because 1- it is too heavy and 2- to cool the engine bay a bit. The way I have it now the down pipe goes under the firewall header and that contributes to a lot of heat in the engine compartment. If I route it differently I can probably cool down the engine bay by a couple of 100 degrees. The way I'm planing to run the exhaust should give me a couple of ponies on top end.



La fiera MSG #241, 11-22-2018 05:35 PM
     

Ok, the mounts look awesome and super strong but NOTHING LINES UP. I had to grind here, drilled there and then do some shimming to make them fit.
So my review on these mounts is: 2 out of 10.



Not to mention I had to wait a month to get them. Very nice customer service though.
Let see how the shifter kit fits on it, I'll let you know when I get to it!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #242, 11-23-2018 01:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Yes, with the 3.94 gears. Kit is from WCF and I'm doing new SS exhaust on the car as well.


Why waste your time with those gears?
The Saturn Aura transmission has a 4.40 final with 0.81 fifth... MUCH better ratios for racing use

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-23-2018).]

La fiera MSG #243, 11-23-2018 04:17 PM
      Your right WIll! This one is free and the MG3 cost me $450 shipped and I'm saving it for when I install the other short block.

La fiera MSG #244, 11-25-2018 07:14 PM
     

Finally! After some grinding I was able to get the brackets in place!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #245, 11-26-2018 09:28 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Why waste your time with those gears?
The Saturn Aura transmission has a 4.40 final with 0.81 fifth... MUCH better ratios for racing use



Err... Saturn *VUE* SUV... not the Aura


La fiera MSG #246, 11-26-2018 11:55 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Err... Saturn *VUE* SUV... not the Aura

Its ok Will, I know what you meant!



La fiera MSG #247, 11-30-2018 08:50 PM
     

Got the Fiero up on jackstands to start working on it!

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

I love how stiff the Fiero chassis is! Two jackstands at the back and the hydraulic jack on the right front and the chassis doesn't twist!


Spadesluck MSG #248, 12-01-2018 10:54 AM
      I find myself in that same situation all the time. Jack up the right side but the whole car goes up instead.

La fiera MSG #249, 12-01-2018 09:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

I find myself in that same situation all the time. Jack up the right side but the whole car goes up instead.


Yep, let the suspension do its thing and don;t let the chassis intervene!


La fiera MSG #250, 12-03-2018 10:02 PM
      https://youtu.be/5uOsQmlaI38

I've been getting a lot of massages and emails about my 250whp 3.4L engine and Instead of writing here on the forum I found it much easier to just make a one take video episode of the description of my engine. There will be more to come. These are one take videos so some things may not be explained properly so just let me know if there is something you didn't understand. Thank you for your patience!


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #251, 12-03-2018 10:55 PM
      Your video came up in my subscription feed.

La fiera MSG #252, 12-22-2018 09:24 PM
     

Did some progress on these off days. Target is to have tha F23 installed before tuesday!

I think I'll take this time to re design the exhaust system. This system was made with what I had left from a previous build. I'll make it Shorter and less restricting.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 12-22-2018).]

La fiera MSG #253, 12-25-2018 02:39 PM
     

Took transmission out from the top with no hoist, piece of cake.


Clutch slipped bad past 5800-6000rpm and when I flatshifted while at high speed.


La fiera MSG #254, 01-25-2019 07:43 PM
      Hello guys!! Well the trans is in since 2 weeks ago but the project had a little hick up due to a tragedy.
I came home from vacation and the very next day my dady passed away back home, The Dominican Republic; he was 83 years old.
Its been almost a week and I'm feeling better so the projects (3.4 & 3.XX) should start going soon.
My dad loved cars, he was an Industrial Engineer. He heard the Fiero on start up and I revved it for him and he couldn't stop laughing!




My advice to you, cherish your dad because you only have one.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #255, 01-26-2019 11:57 AM
      Sorry to hear about your dad. Sounds like he lived a pretty full life, though.

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #256, 01-26-2019 05:07 PM
      Yep, there's only one.

La fiera MSG #257, 01-26-2019 08:31 PM
      Thank you Mike and PMbrunnelle for the kind words.
Today I did a bit of progress. I installed the shifter and the cables on the trans and installed the 5 speed shifter.


Notorio MSG #258, 01-26-2019 11:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Took transmission out from the top with no hoist, piece of cake.


Sorry to hear about your Dad. It is good to remember those special times together.

I didn't realize you can pull the tranny out from the top. Any special tips? How much does it weigh?


La fiera MSG #259, 01-27-2019 10:23 AM
      Yes it can be done. I had more trouble because of my headers interference, with the stock logs it would've been a breaze.
Once the trans is unbolted the pressure plane needs to be removed and the trans can come out.
To replace it is the opposite.
Drop the trans in and install the clutch and pressure plate (You'll need some patience with it but it can be done).

In my case it was more difficult for me because the F23 is bigger a bit longer and heavier 78lbs vs 104lbs .
I didn't use a cherry picker to do the lifting and dropping of the trans, it was all human power.
I do not recommend this method.
The only reason I did it was because I don't have the means to lift the body off the cradle safely.

But to answer your question, Yes, it can be done with strength and patience.

PS. The 4 speed passenger side axle was too long, I had to get one ffrom a 2000 Cavalier.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 01-27-2019).]

lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #260, 01-28-2019 09:09 PM
      Oh man I'm so sorry for your loss.

La fiera MSG #261, 01-28-2019 10:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Oh man I'm so sorry for your loss.


Thanks Lou. I have delayed reaction to this things.
The past 2 days have been very hard for me but we have to keep charging forward.
We have a goal to reach!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #262, 01-28-2019 11:51 PM
      Take your time. Sorry for your loss. But keeping busy does help. My Fiero was therapy for me during times like you are having.

La fiera MSG #263, 01-29-2019 09:15 PM
      Thanks wftb! Today I picked up some hardware to install the shifting cables and adjust them.
Then is to the hydraulics of the clutch, and I have all the parts for the jop.
Then is on to the exhaust. Its going to be very short compared
to what I have now for two reasons.
1- The new cam won't like back pressure (for the 3.XX 300whp project)
2- Less exhaust= less heat in the engine compartment.
Re tuning will be required of course!


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #264, 01-29-2019 10:25 PM
      How short / simple of an exhaust?

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.


La fiera MSG #265, 01-30-2019 09:00 PM
      LOL!! No, it will not be like that airplane engine! Its going to be about half of what I have now.
Instead of exiting on the bottom passenger side it will exit off the engine compartment behind the driver.


La fiera MSG #266, 02-11-2019 09:39 PM
     

Sneak peak. Mad Max style

Spelling

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 02-11-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #267, 02-12-2019 08:31 AM
      I hope you don't run at tracks with noise rules...


 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Thank you Mike and PMbrunnelle for the kind words.
Today I did a bit of progress. I installed the shifter and the cables on the trans and installed the 5 speed shifter.


Is that the WCF linkage kit?


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #268, 02-12-2019 10:01 AM
      I mean...having exhaust exit at your feet is a sure-fire way to add back-pressure and AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT!

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 02-12-2019).]

La fiera MSG #269, 02-12-2019 11:23 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I mean...having exhaust exit at your feet is a sure-fire way to add back-pressure and AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT!



Yep! The previous Y pipe was made out of left over material from an exhaust job and it was very restrictive and heavy.



La fiera MSG #270, 02-12-2019 12:19 PM
      Yes WILL, it is the WCF kit.


La fiera MSG #271, 02-15-2019 08:43 PM
     
Got the hydraulics working and after adjusting the cables I now can find all the gears and reverse!
Next is the exhaust I'll start working on it this weekend!
One thing, you can see all the heat management insulation. More HP means more heat,
and heat can melt stuff down. Even in stock form, insulate the shifting cables, I'm telling you from experience!


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #272, 02-16-2019 09:36 AM
      Rodney Dickman's shift cables come with an insulating sleeve.

For those slide-on insulating sleeves (like what you have on the clutch slave line), what do you do to keep them from sliding along the wire/hose/whatever?

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 02-16-2019).]

La fiera MSG #273, 02-16-2019 12:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Rodney Dickman's shift cables come with an insulating sleeve.

For those slide-on insulating sleeves (like what you have on the clutch slave line), what do you do to keep them from sliding along the wire/hose/whatever?



I use Stainless Steel wire to secure it.


La fiera MSG #274, 02-19-2019 09:36 PM
     


Alright, this is a sneak peak of the exhaust.. Its raw and its Mad Maxed!


La fiera MSG #275, 02-24-2019 08:47 PM
      https://youtu.be/Ndrq9smPWBY



Spadesluck MSG #276, 02-24-2019 11:52 PM
      That thing sounds mean. I like it!

La fiera MSG #277, 02-25-2019 10:06 PM
      The video makes no justice! You have to hear it live. Believe it or not it sounds quieter but meaner than before at hi rpms!!

Spadesluck MSG #278, 02-26-2019 01:08 AM
      You think there will be any issues with your intake and exhaust exit so close to each other?

La fiera MSG #279, 02-26-2019 12:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

You think there will be any issues with your intake and exhaust exit so close to each other?


Yes, I will re do the intake with the TB either on top or the other side. I'm just deciding which TB to use.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #280, 02-26-2019 02:06 PM
      The exhaust looks and sounds cool. Although the Fiero's aerodynamics will cause some of the exhaust gas to collect behind the rear window. I don't know if it will build up enough to affect performance, but it's something to keep in mind. I'd be tempted to run an intake pipe over to the fender, or something like that.

La fiera MSG #281, 02-26-2019 02:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

The exhaust looks and sounds cool. Although the Fiero's aerodynamics will cause some of the exhaust gas to collect behind the rear window. I don't know if it will build up enough to affect performance, but it's something to keep in mind.


You are right Mike. I'm installing a "hatch" to go over the back window. Its going to take the place of the lowvers to help the aero. the pipes will be sticking out of the hatch. It also its going to have an integrated scoop to bring fresh air to the intake and the engine bay.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #282, 02-26-2019 04:01 PM
      You mean like a hatchback? That would be interesting. (would help with aerodynamics too)

La fiera MSG #283, 02-26-2019 08:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

You mean like a hatchback? That would be interesting. (would help with aerodynamics too)


Exactly!



La fiera MSG #284, 02-26-2019 09:27 PM
     

Supernatural Getto Y pipe vs True Dual Race Pipes. Even though the True Dual Pipes look different they have the exact matched length.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 02-26-2019).]

Spadesluck MSG #285, 02-27-2019 12:59 AM
      You plan on tying the pipes together at all (like and h or x pipe)? I am not exhaust expert that that is supposed to help with balancing out the motor, or so I have read.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #286, 02-27-2019 08:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:



Supernatural Getto Y pipe vs True Dual Race Pipes. Even though the True Dual Pipes look different they have the exact matched length.




But is it the *right* length?


La fiera MSG #287, 02-27-2019 10:36 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
But is it the *right* length?


For the entire package and the powerband , yes it is the right length.
Tuning will be the key with these pipes.



La fiera MSG #288, 02-27-2019 10:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

You plan on tying the pipes together at all (like and h or x pipe)? I am not exhaust expert that that is supposed to help with balancing out the motor, or so I have read.


H pipe in the furure.


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #289, 02-27-2019 12:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Tuning will be the key with these pipes.


I don't know if this is why the pipes appear to terminate with a female slip-on opening, but it looks like you could easily slip in pipes of different lengths, to rapidly find the ideal pipe length on the dyno.

Unless you've somehow already calculated the ideal pipe length on paper, and you don't find that dyno tuning the length is necessary.


La fiera MSG #290, 02-27-2019 01:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


I don't know if this is why the pipes appear to terminate with a female slip-on opening, but it looks like you could easily slip in pipes of different lengths, to rapidly find the ideal pipe length on the dyno.

Unless you've somehow already calculated the ideal pipe length on paper, and you don't find that dyno tuning the length is necessary.


Do you have a crystal ball or something?!



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #291, 02-27-2019 06:34 PM
      When I saw those slip-on openings, this is what crossed my mind:
https://getyarn.io/yarn-cli...e4-964b-6174709feffe


La fiera MSG #292, 02-27-2019 07:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

When I saw those slip-on openings, this is what crossed my mind:
https://getyarn.io/yarn-cli...e4-964b-6174709feffe


Dude! You Canadians are too much! DId I say anywhere that my boyhood and all time F1 hero is French-Canadian Gilles Villanueve?

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 02-27-2019).]

La fiera MSG #293, 03-08-2019 12:19 AM
      https://youtu.be/Ndrq9smPWBY

Took it for a test drive and HOLLY!!!! Had to do tuning mainly to te fuel table. Did she like the Race pipes? You can hear it.
I thought I had my GoPro recording!!!! I got back from the test drive to find out I didn't recorded it!!! i Was so mad!!
Trans shifts fast and crisp with my upgraded short shirter!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 03-08-2019).]

lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #294, 03-08-2019 09:20 AM
      Since I'm running DIS, I threw a Firebird intake on my motor and it was easy to bore it to 59-60mm. I made an adapter to use my L98 twin 48mm throttle body on it. I opened up the ports on the inside edge to allow greater volume going into the middle intake. The middle intake is shaved down at the top and in doing so, the inside edge of the ports becomes larger/open there as well. The gaskets need to be cut/opened on that edge as well.

My 3.4 using DOHC pistons and Trueleo headers and a 2.5" exhaust outruns my 4.9 to about 75mph. Once you kick into 4th gear, the greater torque of the 4.9 will come into play and the tides turn. Still, for what I do - the race is over by then. You can see this here at the 18:55 mark of the video below where I am driving the 4.9 w/Allante intake 5 speed and a buddy of mine is driving my 3.4 6-speed. Tires are Toyo R888's on 3.4 and R888R's on 4.9. 315/35/17's. Another thing is it's much easier to launch the 3.4 than the 4.9... Anyway, the point of this is yes - there is plenty of reason to still want to create performance parts for the old v6/60.



Please take note that my buddy lost to the turbo AWD Dodge Stealth (w/3000GT nose). In this next video at the 15:11 mark, I beat that same car. The difference is I have an alternator switch and I disabled it every time I pulled onto the track. My buddy didn't for that whole race even though I suggested he should. He didn't believe it would make a difference. Back in 2012 or 2013, I dyno'd a +7rwhp and +11 ft*lbs gain after tuning for 12v with a bad alternator. I'm running the 7730 and there's a table that adjusts injector pulse width to battery voltage. So my a/f ratio basically remains the same except the alternator is just a pulley. As you can see, it makes quite a difference. From what I understand newer/modern vehicles modulate the alternator based on battery level. This is a performance/fuel economy feature.



La fiera MSG #295, 03-08-2019 01:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Since I'm running DIS, I threw a Firebird intake on my motor and it was easy to bore it to 59-60mm. I made an adapter to use my L98 twin 48mm throttle body on it. I opened up the ports on the inside edge to allow greater volume going into the middle intake. The middle intake is shaved down at the top and in doing so, the inside edge of the ports becomes larger/open there as well. The gaskets need to be cut/opened on that edge as well.

My 3.4 using DOHC pistons and Trueleo headers and a 2.5" exhaust outruns my 4.9 to about 75mph. Once you kick into 4th gear, the greater torque of the 4.9 will come into play and the tides turn. Still, for what I do - the race is over by then. You can see this here at the 18:55 mark of the video below where I am driving the 4.9 w/Allante intake 5 speed and a buddy of mine is driving my 3.4 6-speed. Tires are Toyo R888's on 3.4 and R888R's on 4.9. 315/35/17's. Another thing is it's much easier to launch the 3.4 than the 4.9... Anyway, the point of this is yes - there is plenty of reason to still want to create performance parts for the old v6/60.



Please take note that my buddy lost to the turbo AWD Dodge Stealth (w/3000GT nose). In this next video at the 15:11 mark, I beat that same car. The difference is I have an alternator switch and I disabled it every time I pulled onto the track. My buddy didn't for that whole race even though I suggested he should. He didn't believe it would make a difference. Back in 2012 or 2013, I dyno'd a +7rwhp and +11 ft*lbs gain after tuning for 12v with a bad alternator. I'm running the 7730 and there's a table that adjusts injector pulse width to battery voltage. So my a/f ratio basically remains the same except the alternator is just a pulley. As you can see, it makes quite a difference. From what I understand newer/modern vehicles modulate the alternator based on battery level. This is a performance/fuel economy feature.




Great!! I'll look at it tonight!



La fiera MSG #296, 03-08-2019 08:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias: Anyway, the point of this is yes - there is plenty of reason to still want to create performance parts for the old v6/60.


Thanks Lou! I'm glad someone agrees with me and also to the rest of the possy!


88Fingers (fredw_172@hotmail.com) MSG #297, 03-08-2019 08:58 PM
      Always great watching you race Lou! Keeping the Fiero GT legacy alive. Rock on my friend!!

La fiera MSG #298, 03-08-2019 09:22 PM
      I enjoyed when you crushed that Stealth Twin Turbo AWD piece of crap!!!!

lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #299, 03-09-2019 10:28 AM
      I learned not to be a hater. The owner is a great guy and very humble. I believe he's only putting down about ~500. The 2011 WRX I raced afterwards that won the event dyno'd 287rwhp on a local Mustang dyno known as 'the heartbreaker' because it reads 15% below a dynojet. So that puts him in the 320-330 rwhp range. Again, really nice kid. All us regular run the 100 treadwear rated tires. Some us Nitto NT01's. You have to realize - nobody is "stock" there. The twin turbo v8 AMG is the closest thing to stock but even he upgraded his tires at the very least...

I was playing with tire pressures that day, that's why I spun out in turn 4 against the WRX...plus I was pushing it hard all the way thru because I know how good he is...

In fact if you watch the Labor Day video, the driver of the white EVO is who was driving my 3.4 in the Nutcracker video. His EVO dynos in the 800 hp range but he detunes it to 600 for this track. He does a lot of 1/4 mile events... If you listen to the announcer, his name is Kenny Kline...
here's a 9.3 run he did in 2016...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-09-2019).]

La fiera MSG #300, 03-09-2019 01:29 PM
      Those races look like fun!! I'll see if they do that here!

La fiera MSG #301, 04-19-2019 02:10 PM
      While doing the last check ups to take my car to the dyno I seat in the car, primed the fuel system,
pushed the clutch pedal to start the motor and the pedal is slopy! I lost clutch hydraulics!
There is a puddle of blue fluid on the floor.

After a quick inspection I see that the fitting I got from Thelin is wet.
Well, to make a story short, the braze that joints the stock fitting to the
90 degree pipe failed. So, I had to cancel the session!!
That's the price we pay when individuals design mediocre parts and don't
do any R&D of extensive testing before offering them to the public.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.


After all the #%$&^&^%@! to Mr. Thelin I calmed down and remembered I had
a solution that somehow I forgot!

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.
I have bought Fiero Guru's adapter a while ago! Installation was a breeze and now
I'm very confident that I'll never had the same problem with Guru's part.
The craftmaship is impecable compared to the backyard part made by Thelin!
And I'm not asking for my money back or another part in exchage.


Spadesluck MSG #302, 04-19-2019 02:45 PM
      Stinks about the part, however you can re-braze it to seal it up. Granted that is not the answer to the bigger problem. Maybe send it back to get a new one?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #303, 04-21-2019 10:45 AM
      https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mcl-139160






La fiera MSG #304, 04-21-2019 02:00 PM
      BAM!! WIll to the rescue!!

La fiera MSG #305, 04-28-2019 09:53 PM
     


I took the car out yesterday for some tuning and some stress relese drifting
after waiting 2 weeks for the wheels to get powder coated. It looks
better than the black. I'm just tired of everyone having blacked out cars and wheels!!
So the theme of the car will be black and gold. The Superchrome powder coat wheels really stands out!
My wife loves them! Happy wife, happy Fiero owner!
Tuning is coming along very well!! Sorry guys, my GoPro isn't working.


La fiera MSG #306, 05-17-2019 11:16 PM
      https://youtu.be/qaDRamsYUtY

Spadesluck MSG #307, 05-18-2019 01:22 AM
      I would agree the wheels look good.

La fiera MSG #308, 05-19-2019 01:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

The goal of 250 RWHP from a 3.4L pr engine is a very aggressive one. I've built these engines and even with a turbo have not reached this goal. You can improve the performance but the engine breathes poorly. With loads of boost like 20 psi you might reach your goal but N/A I say no way.




277WHP @ 6000RPM
300WTQ @ 4500RPM



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #309, 05-19-2019 02:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I've built these engines and even with a turbo have not reached this goal.

You need to up your game, homie!

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 05-19-2019).]

Spadesluck MSG #310, 05-19-2019 03:59 PM
      Very Awesome!

lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #311, 05-19-2019 06:25 PM
      But but but but but but but but but but but didn't the trolls tell you IRON HEADS DON'T FLOW!

LMFAO!

For the love of god don't use a Dynojet dyno or the trolls will really poop their panties!

Congrats Rei !!!


La fiera MSG #312, 05-19-2019 10:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

Very Awesome!


No, you have to hear this! This is awesome!

https://youtu.be/qaDRamsYUtY



La fiera MSG #313, 05-19-2019 10:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

But but but but but but but but but but but didn't the trolls tell you IRON HEADS DON'T FLOW!

LMFAO!

For the love of god don't use a Dynojet dyno or the trolls will really poop their panties!

Congrats Rei !!!


Thank you Lou!
I quoted Dennis not to put him down or anything like that.
I did it just to show that we should think before we speak.
I set a goal for myself and limited myself to iron heads.
It took me a year or so but I did not give up. I had comitted myself in public to this challenge
and I read, researched, brainstormed and analized a lot of things that suppousebly didn't make sense
scientifically or mathematically but suddenly made sense when applicable at different parameters.
These things made sense to a down to earth person, like the average guys like you and I, but for
the intelligent scientists-like thinking people it was just impossible because science and math said so.
And that when I said screw science and math, I'm going with my gut! There you have it!

You and I have heard thousands of times that "iron heads don't flow".
But why don't they flow?
because mathematically they don't?
Is it because there is a replacement aluminum head that outflow the iron head?
No, its because no one has ever taken the time and effort to disproof this theory.
The internet made a lot of individuals inteligent but the reality is that it made them dumb.
But dumb how? Well, dumb in the sense that they are repeating what other people said and
they never trully had taken the time to proof otherwise.

So, I can say that Lou was right on the iron head theory. They flow, as much and even more
than the aluminum couterparts when done properly.

One more thing, you dont need a roller cam to make power! Sorry Lou.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #314, 05-20-2019 07:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
One more thing, you dont need a roller cam to make power! Sorry Lou.


That's it! Now we are fighting! ;-)


La fiera MSG #315, 05-20-2019 11:33 AM
      https://youtu.be/DxewiTeUMlk

This guy has big roller cam, ported and polished aluminum heads and a nice ITB set up!


Spadesluck MSG #316, 05-21-2019 12:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
No, you have to hear this! This is awesome!

https://youtu.be/qaDRamsYUtY


That does sound mean. Seems to rev up fast as well. Now throw a turbo in it!

[This message has been edited by Spadesluck (edited 05-21-2019).]

La fiera MSG #317, 05-21-2019 10:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:


That does sound mean. Seems to rev up fast as well. Now throw a turbo in it!



That would be too easy!!
I've got some other prototype stuff that I'm working on for the other engine which I'll be testing on this one. It'll be awesome if I hit the 300+whp!



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #318, 05-21-2019 04:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
It'll be awesome if I hit the 300+whp!

Just find a Dynojet dyno instead of a Mustang dyno...


La fiera MSG #319, 05-21-2019 09:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Just find a Dynojet dyno instead of a Mustang dyno...


Nah, I want to make the haters suffer so I'll keep the Mustang!

In another note, the peak numbers were good for me but what really impressed me was the area under the curve power gained
at this last tuning session compared to one before this one when I posted the 245whp dyno sheet.
Look at this hand made page,
left column is dyno before this one, the middle column is this dyno session and the last column is the gain from the first one to this last session.
This I can really feel on the seat of my pants!

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.


La fiera MSG #320, 05-23-2019 07:06 PM
      This are the valves in this motor. I don't think I showed them before but I found this picture.
The two outer are the stock 1.72int and 1.42exh and in the middle the Chromoly 1.8int and 1.5exh.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #321, 05-24-2019 08:27 AM
      The key thing is they are narrowed at the stem at the bottom. Narrowed to the same diameter as stock 3X00 v6/60 valves. Personally, I will narrow my next set of valves even further.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #322, 05-24-2019 09:14 AM
      The stockers are much closer to being a tulip head, which makes porting for those valves much different than porting for the updated valves.

La fiera MSG #323, 05-31-2019 07:39 PM
      https://youtu.be/vEy0dZN8y9A

I'm corn fed now!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 05-31-2019).]

lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #324, 05-31-2019 07:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

https://youtu.be/vEy0dZN8y9A

I'm corn fed now!


300+rwhp on a Mustang dyno incoming in...

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 05-31-2019).]

La fiera MSG #325, 05-31-2019 08:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

300+rwhp on a Mustang dyno incoming in...



That will make my day!! I need more fans like Lou, you guys keep me going!!!



lordfiero (lordtoni@hotmail.com) MSG #326, 06-01-2019 06:08 AM
      What compression are you running, have you had problems before going to E85?

La fiera MSG #327, 06-01-2019 08:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lordfiero:

What compression are you running, have you had problems before going to E85?


10.85:1 is my current compression but because the cam I have I must run a very aggressive timing curve.
I did not change to E85 becasue I had a knocking problem.
I changed because I want to have all the upgrades made before I install the new short block, 3.7 with Iron heads.
One thing I tell you, There was a 50 degrees IAT temp drop just by changing to E85 on this engine.
Oh and now I can sleep at nigth knowing I'm helping the enviroment!

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 06-01-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #328, 06-03-2019 12:02 PM
      But now you can go 12.5:1

La fiera MSG #329, 06-03-2019 09:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

But now you can go 12.5:1


The other short block with these heads will be at 11.58:1 exactly. So the E85 will be a big help!



La fiera MSG #330, 07-22-2019 12:47 PM
      Finally took my car out yesterday for the first time with the E85 upgrade.
It feels much different than before, more explosive on the gas, revs faster, winds out
through the gears much faster and the cam comes in with such a punch that now
the clutch can't hold. Even in 4th while cruising when I give it more gas and the RPMs
start to climb and when the cam hits the clutch slips. Still have tuning to do.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #331, 07-23-2019 10:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

Finally took my car out yesterday for the first time with the E85 upgrade.
It feels much different than before, more explosive on the gas, revs faster, winds out
through the gears much faster and the cam comes in with such a punch that now
the clutch can't hold. Even in 4th while cruising when I give it more gas and the RPMs
start to climb and when the cam hits the clutch slips. Still have tuning to do.

Yes it's amazing isn't it? It also helped my 4.9 run NOT-PIG-RICH!


ericjon262 MSG #332, 07-24-2019 04:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

The key thing is they are narrowed at the stem at the bottom. Narrowed to the same diameter as stock 3X00 v6/60 valves. Personally, I will narrow my next set of valves even further.


I've seen several tests of reduced stems, they really don't help as much as you seem to think, and they weaken the valve. I'd rather sacrifice 1-2 hp and have a stronger valve, breaking a disk off the stem makes for a bad day.

A better option would be to press in new guides with a smaller stem diameter. you'll pick up more flow than reduced stems, they have less friction because the stem contact area is smaller, and reduced mass. win all the way around.

FWIW, I've never seen a true hardcore race engine(built by a team) run reduced stems.



ericjon262 MSG #333, 07-24-2019 04:36 PM
      E85 has a slower burn rate compared to gasoline, you'll want to advance your total timing a little more to make the most of it.



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #334, 07-24-2019 07:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
E85 has a slower burn rate compared to gasoline, you'll want to advance your total timing a little more to make the most of it.

I did. And it likes the higher compression ratio. I picked up 10 or so rwhp switching to it.


La fiera MSG #335, 07-29-2019 11:00 PM
     
E85 has its own rules and it let me know my distributor ignition system was very weak so i started to ugrade. Big thanks to Blacktreee for his
help, i'm new to DIS.
300WHP here we come1

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 07-29-2019).]

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #336, 07-29-2019 11:43 PM
      How small of a spark plug gap did you try with the distributor setup before giving up on it?

La fiera MSG #337, 07-30-2019 08:46 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

How small of a spark plug gap did you try with the distributor setup before giving up on it?


I didn't try different gaps because I had my mind set on switching to DIS already.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #338, 07-30-2019 11:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


E85 has its own rules and it let me know my distributor ignition system was very weak so i started to ugrade. Big thanks to Blacktreee for his
help, i'm new to DIS.
300WHP here we come1



How close is the brick to your exhaust? It may not like that


ericjon262 MSG #339, 07-30-2019 01:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


How close is the brick to your exhaust? It may not like that


the header wrap probably helps, that being said, I wouldn't want my ICM anywhere near the exhaust, wrapped or not.


La fiera MSG #340, 07-30-2019 09:24 PM
      That picture is deceiving. I strategically placed the ICM at this location because the heat will dissipate upwards not sideways.
Heat goes up right Will!? Specially if I use half of the deck lid. That means all the heat is sucked from under the car upwards behind the
reat window. And since I don't have anything boiling under the ICM I should be ok.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #341, 07-31-2019 12:41 PM
      In that location, the ignition brick should only be getting radiated heat from the exhaust. The radiated heat can easily be blocked with a piece of sheet metal. I did just that, using some aluminum flashing material from the hardware store. You can cut it with scissors, and attach it to the mounting bracket with a couple screws. Simple and easy.