3.6 liter High Feature I a Fiero
Topic started by: Daryl M, Date: 09-07-2016 07:16 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/138651.html


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #1, 09-07-2016 07:16 PM
      Has anyone attempted putting a 3.6 liter High Feature from a late model Buick or Chevy in a Fiero? I am considering the swap, but would be interested in opinions from anyone that has considered it or done it.
Thanks,
Daryl M


dobey MSG #2, 09-07-2016 07:49 PM
      There have been many threads about this on here, but so far nobody has done one.

The closest would be the Saab 2.8t (LP9 high feature engine) swap that bmwguru did on his car. I'm not sure if he's finished it yet though.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #3, 09-07-2016 08:06 PM
      I have the opportunity to acquire a 2013, low miles, engine and transmission from a Chevy Impala, with ecm, harness, alternator, starter and some other misc. parts for really cheap. The engine seems to be a bit tall for the engine compartment, but a raised rear deck should be a simple fix. Anyone have input?

dobey MSG #4, 09-07-2016 08:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
I have the opportunity to acquire a 2013, low miles, engine and transmission from a Chevy Impala, with ecm, harness, alternator, starter and some other misc. parts for really cheap. The engine seems to be a bit tall for the engine compartment, but a raised rear deck should be a simple fix. Anyone have input?


How cheap is "really cheap" exactly? And why is it so cheap?

The engine should fit fine in the Fiero engine bay. The biggest issue will be getting it tuned.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #5, 09-07-2016 08:36 PM
      $800. Maybe less. Depends on my negotiation skills. As for tuning, I may be missing something, but if the install is functionally the same as the doner car, shouldn't the factory ecm from the doner do the job?

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #6, 09-07-2016 08:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
$800. Maybe less. Depends on my negotiation skills. As for tuning, I may be missing something, but if the install is functionally the same as the doner car, shouldn't the factory ecm from the doner do the job?


You'll probably need or want to get the steering column, the radio, the tranny computer and the body computer. That stuff is usually all linked through VATS, and VIN, otherwise you'll end up paying someone with programming equipment to sort it out. If you can get all the required hardware from the donor car there shouldn't be a need to tune anything. Don't forget the gauge cluster and accelerator pedal. See if you can get the whole car.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 09-07-2016).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #7, 09-07-2016 08:47 PM
      I believe that all of those items are there.

dobey MSG #8, 09-07-2016 08:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

$800. Maybe less. Depends on my negotiation skills. As for tuning, I may be missing something, but if the install is functionally the same as the doner car, shouldn't the factory ecm from the doner do the job?


The ECM is not a standalone unit. The production vehicle has many modules which must all communicate to provide a fully functioning vehicle. You can't just plug it in an expect it to work.

You'll need to at least disable VATS for example, and you'll likely need to disable some of the traction control features since the Fiero doesn't have ABS and brake control module. You might want to tune for more power too. You'll also need other sensors which aren't part of the engine or transmission package itself. Brake booster vacuum, fuel tank pressure, and EVAP canister sensors, for example. Presumably you're not also installing all the same emissions equipment, so you might need to change the tuning for that.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #9, 09-07-2016 08:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


The ECM is not a standalone unit. The production vehicle has many modules which must all communicate to provide a fully functioning vehicle. You can't just plug it in an expect it to work.

You'll need to at least disable VATS for example, and you'll likely need to disable some of the traction control features since the Fiero doesn't have ABS and brake control module. You might want to tune for more power too. You'll also need other sensors which aren't part of the engine or transmission package itself. Brake booster vacuum, fuel tank pressure, and EVAP canister sensors, for example. Presumably you're not also installing all the same emissions equipment, so you might need to change the tuning for that.


Yep, forgot all about those missing sensors.


gtjoe MSG #10, 09-07-2016 10:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


The ECM is not a standalone unit. The production vehicle has many modules which must all communicate to provide a fully functioning vehicle. You can't just plug it in an expect it to work.

You'll need to at least disable VATS for example, and you'll likely need to disable some of the traction control features since the Fiero doesn't have ABS and brake control module. You might want to tune for more power too. You'll also need other sensors which aren't part of the engine or transmission package itself. Brake booster vacuum, fuel tank pressure, and EVAP canister sensors, for example. Presumably you're not also installing all the same emissions equipment, so you might need to change the tuning for that.


Im pretty sure I have read that the bcm stuff can be removed from the high feature tune. There seems to be a few people putting these motors in miatas

link to a miata forum with a thread about a miata with a lfx installed http://www.v8miata.net/cars...fx-fresh-build-2511/

[This message has been edited by gtjoe (edited 09-07-2016).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #11, 09-07-2016 11:29 PM
      I just checked with the doner car owner. I can get all of the items I will need from the car for nearly nothing. Car was wreaked 2 years ago, but ran great prior to that. 302 hp , 265 lb/ft of torque should be sufficient.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #12, 09-07-2016 11:40 PM
      Any suggestions about the merits of useing an aftermarket stand alone ecm? Also considering an F40 manual transmission. As you can guess, I am sitll in the planning stages of this project, so I am open to suggestions.

dobey MSG #13, 09-08-2016 08:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by gtjoe:
Im pretty sure I have read that the bcm stuff can be removed from the high feature tune. There seems to be a few people putting these motors in miatas

link to a miata forum with a thread about a miata with a lfx installed http://www.v8miata.net/cars...fx-fresh-build-2511/



Yes, I didn't say it couldn't be. I said that swapping the engine will require a lot of tuning work, and all of that hasn't been entirely fleshed out yet on a wide scale.


dobey MSG #14, 09-08-2016 08:49 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Any suggestions about the merits of useing an aftermarket stand alone ecm? Also considering an F40 manual transmission. As you can guess, I am sitll in the planning stages of this project, so I am open to suggestions.


For the F40 you will either need one from a Saab 2.8t manual car, or an adapter plate and moving the starter mount.

As for aftermarket ECM, none of the reasonably priced ones can do SIDI yet AFAIK. The LFX is a SIDI engine.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #15, 09-08-2016 10:00 AM
      Great feedback everyone, thanks. I haven't bought the engine/tranny yet, so I am not locked into it. I may also consider a Buick Regal 2.0 liter turbo. These donor cars are available at auction. Any feedback on this option?

dobey MSG #16, 09-08-2016 11:26 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Great feedback everyone, thanks. I haven't bought the engine/tranny yet, so I am not locked into it. I may also consider a Buick Regal 2.0 liter turbo. These donor cars are available at auction. Any feedback on this option?


The new 2.0 turbo is also a swap that has not actually been completed in a Fiero. It's also a SIDI engine.

Really, what are your goals for a swap in your car? Do you have the skills/time/space and/or money to do it? If you can't tune an ECU yourself and don't want to pay to have it done, you're better off looking at older engines from early-mid 90s, or buying something that comes as a kit. Even then though, you'll almost certainly need to do a bit of tuning.


mender MSG #17, 09-08-2016 02:55 PM
      I have a 2012 Impala LFX engine ($800 Cdn) that is getting hooked up to an F23 with the Quad4 bellhousing pattern. Everything looks good but I haven't had time to finish it up, will get back at it once the snow flies up here.

ECU: I'm going to use just the stock ECU without any extra bits. I had mine set up by Will at Overkill, he's supposed to be the guru of these engines. Apparently this is the first one that he's done for a Fiero engine swap and I'll be sending him datalogs for further refinement once it's in the car and running. Should be interesting to see how the DBW and electronic pedal work out but Will's done a bunch of manual LFX Camaro tuning as well as LFX Impala tuning so I'm pretty sure he'll be on top of it. Cost was around $500 for the tune.
http://www.getoverkilled.ca/

What's the mileage on your engine? Mine had 12,000 miles and there was enough carbon on the backsides of the intake valves that I decided to take it apart and clean things up. As mentioned, it'll be getting a good catch can.

I suspect that the LFX/F23/Overkill combo will turn out to be very popular once a few of them are on the road.

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 09-08-2016).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #18, 09-08-2016 04:54 PM
      Mender, are you concerned about the strenth of the F23? Rated torque is 100 ft/lbs less than what the LFX makes. Also, is the bell housing bolt pattern of the LFX the same as the 2.0 liter Ecotec?

qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #19, 09-08-2016 05:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
As for tuning, I may be missing something, but if the install is functionally the same as the doner car, shouldn't the factory ecm from the doner do the job?


Yep, its just that easy.


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #20, 09-08-2016 06:22 PM
      The GM high feature engine makes great torque and horsepower. In a Fiero it would prove to be a very good performer. The things that keep me away from doing this swap are the high number of required inputs that the PCM expects to see from the ABS, Body Control module, wheel sensors, gauges, gas tank pressure, VVT, DFI, traction control, electric steering and many of the other CAN inputs. Its also a drive by wire engine that uses a gas pedal module. If the PCM doesn't see all the required inputs then it goes into default mode. For this swap I would go with a cable operated throttle body and use a more friendly easy to program OBDII PCM like ones from the early Grand Prix 3800's. That is if you can figure out a way around the VVT. There is most likely a way to use the high feature PCM but AFAIK, it isn't heavily documented. I guess anything can be made to operate with anything but where do you find the forumula? Maybe with the GM stand alone PCM used for marine use.



dobey MSG #21, 09-08-2016 06:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Mender, are you concerned about the strenth of the F23? Rated torque is 100 ft/lbs less than what the LFX makes. Also, is the bell housing bolt pattern of the LFX the same as the 2.0 liter Ecotec?


If you want a manual trans, you're basically going to have to ignore the stated torque ratings. FWIW, people are running 600+ HP 3800 turbo cars with the F23 just fine.

As for the bell housing, no, the High Feature V6 is a unique bell pattern. The Ecotec is yet another different bell pattern. The F23 mender is referring to though, is one that came paired with a Quad 4, I think. This pattern is also different, but close enough that it's theoretically possible to make it work with some fancy fabrication of brackets.


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #22, 09-08-2016 06:39 PM
      Mender, et al...

I am also considering this swap. You're going about it about the same way that I had planned, except that I'll be using a Beretta Getrag instead of the F23. (I posted in your LFX/F23 thread. Thanks for any info that you have shared.)
I may try to do the PCM myself. The Impala engine, with a manual Camaro tune. The worst that will happen is that it won't work.
I already have the victim, errrr.... car. It's an 88 coupe.
I won't likely be starting the swap until spring at the earliest. We are planning a move, and I don't want to take another car apart in our basement before that happens.

And yeah... the intake valve coking is something that has crossed my mind as well. Did you have to remove the heads? Or did you just remove the intake?
I've read accounts of people just blasting the ports with walnut shells, but that sounds like a bad idea, unless the valve is closed, and you can ensure that all of the debris can be vacuumed out. Afterwards, catch cans were highly recommended.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-08-2016).]

mender MSG #23, 09-08-2016 08:35 PM
      I took the heads off and disassembled them, glass beaded the valves, checked the guides (good of course), put in new seals, head gaskets, head bolts. I ported and blended the entire air path through the engine, from and including the throttle body and intake to the exhaust flange. I also baffled the oil pan and resealed it, after checking the bearings (new connecting rod bolts).

I build racing engines so I have all the equipment needed, and I consider working through a new-to-me engine fun!

The walnut shell thingy works, just make sure the valves are closed and you clean up thoroughly after you're done.

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 09-08-2016).]

mender MSG #24, 09-09-2016 03:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

I have the opportunity to acquire a 2013, low miles, engine and transmission from a Chevy Impala, with ecm, harness, alternator, starter and some other misc. parts for really cheap. The engine seems to be a bit tall for the engine compartment, but a raised rear deck should be a simple fix. Anyone have input?


Centreline of crank to top of engine is 19.5".



bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #25, 09-12-2016 06:28 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

There have been many threads about this on here, but so far nobody has done one.

The closest would be the Saab 2.8t (LP9 high feature engine) swap that bmwguru did on his car. I'm not sure if he's finished it yet though.


I have been so consumed with my shop over the past two years, I put the project on hold. I did shoot this video the other day when I blew the dust off the project. I plan to get it over to the dyno shop in a week and actually enjoy the car in the very near future. I love the way the car sounds and the engine really likes to respond to the throttle with minimal mods. I couldn't get the video to embed.

Dave

https://youtu.be/eZwOlswP6-Y


dobey MSG #26, 09-12-2016 09:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


I have been so consumed with my shop over the past two years, I put the project on hold. I did shoot this video the other day when I blew the dust off the project. I plan to get it over to the dyno shop in a week and actually enjoy the car in the very near future. I love the way the car sounds and the engine really likes to respond to the throttle with minimal mods. I couldn't get the video to embed.

Dave

https://youtu.be/eZwOlswP6-Y


Nice! Hope it makes good numbers and you can enjoy it soon. Would love to see video of it on the road.


iluvsd619 (luv6192000@yahoo.com) MSG #27, 09-14-2016 11:13 PM
      So what is the secret on this electronic solution to adapt this engine? Not much info out there on getting it to work. These motors are finding their way into miatas and classics. I called v8 roadsters (miatas) today. They want 1300 for their harness and ecu. He said they are making tons of them and they are behind. About 6 weeks to get a set. He said it should work in a Fiero. Just FYI.



iluvsd619 (luv6192000@yahoo.com) MSG #28, 09-14-2016 11:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


I have been so consumed with my shop over the past two years, I put the project on hold. I did shoot this video the other day when I blew the dust off the project. I plan to get it over to the dyno shop in a week and actually enjoy the car in the very near future. I love the way the car sounds and the engine really likes to respond to the throttle with minimal mods. I couldn't get the video to embed.

Dave

https://youtu.be/eZwOlswP6-Y



This is awesome.


2.5 MSG #29, 09-15-2016 08:56 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:


I have been so consumed with my shop over the past two years, I put the project on hold. I did shoot this video the other day when I blew the dust off the project. I plan to get it over to the dyno shop in a week and actually enjoy the car in the very near future. I love the way the car sounds and the engine really likes to respond to the throttle with minimal mods. I couldn't get the video to embed.

Dave

https://youtu.be/eZwOlswP6-Y




This one linked

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-15-2016).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #30, 09-15-2016 10:29 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:




This one linked



That one was when I was running the stock Saab ecu, but I couldn't get the ecu to control the mixture and throttle the way the AEM does. It became a new car with the AEM ecu


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #31, 09-15-2016 11:39 AM
      Figured that Dave would get this swap done and running. As for the AEM ECU; they make plug in units for mostly imports and if you are a member of the auto trans club as I am, you are S.O.L. With the AEM it appears that you must start the tuning from scratch but is there a work-around for the DOD or VVT? . Eventually there is a work around for everything it seems as the Ecotec guys have proven but don't see much in the way of managing control of this engine with an auto. This engine is the next logical step beyond the 3800 and I hope that it catches on.



bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #32, 09-15-2016 03:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

Figured that Dave would get this swap done and running. As for the AEM ECU; they make plug in units for mostly imports and if you are a member of the auto trans club as I am, you are S.O.L. With the AEM it appears that you must start the tuning from scratch but is there a work-around for the DOD or VVT? . Eventually there is a work around for everything it seems as the Ecotec guys have proven but don't see much in the way of managing control of this engine with an auto. This engine is the next logical step beyond the 3800 and I hope that it catches on.



The AEM will work with the DBW and VVT. I used an Infinity-6 and made the harness myself. A lot of the sensors are AEM specific and it wasn't bad to do. I did have to swap the Saab VR crank sensor for the Camaro 3.6 hall effect type to make it work.


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #33, 09-15-2016 03:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I couldn't get the video to embed.


You're a genius with mechanical stuff... yet you shoot a vertical video ... and then can't figure out how to embed it.



dobey MSG #34, 09-15-2016 03:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
and then can't figure out how to embed it.


I'm pretty sure the embedding wasn't working before, because the video was set to only be visible to those who had the URL. It seems that changed (I don't see a warning on YouTube about this when I view the video any more), which likely 'fixed' the embedding problem.


dobey MSG #35, 09-15-2016 03:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
Figured that Dave would get this swap done and running. As for the AEM ECU; they make plug in units for mostly imports and if you are a member of the auto trans club as I am, you are S.O.L. With the AEM it appears that you must start the tuning from scratch but is there a work-around for the DOD or VVT? . Eventually there is a work around for everything it seems as the Ecotec guys have proven but don't see much in the way of managing control of this engine with an auto. This engine is the next logical step beyond the 3800 and I hope that it catches on.


I think only the 2016+ Gen IV High Feature engines have cylinder deactivation. Most of the higher end consumer grade aftermarket ECM solutions, like the AEM Infinity or Haltech Elite can handle both DOD and VVT, I think.

The only big thing that most of the solutions in this range still can't do, is direct injection, because the injectors are so different, electronically, from traditional SFI injectors, and from the rest of the electronics in the system. I'm pretty sure that at least Haltech and AEM are both working on solutions to be able to run direct injection systems, though.


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #36, 09-15-2016 04:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

I'm pretty sure the embedding wasn't working before, because the video was set to only be visible to those who had the URL. It seems that changed (I don't see a warning on YouTube about this when I view the video any more), which likely 'fixed' the embedding problem.


Nope... no Kewpie doll for you.


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #37, 09-15-2016 04:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

You're a genius with mechanical stuff... yet you shoot a vertical video ... and then can't figure out how to embed it.



new phone....lol


Crytes MSG #38, 09-15-2016 05:17 PM
      When I get to my engine swap the engines I'm most interested in are the High Feature 6 and the Ecotec. What manuals work with the High Feature without adapter plates?

dobey MSG #39, 09-15-2016 06:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Crytes:

When I get to my engine swap the engines I'm most interested in are the High Feature 6 and the Ecotec. What manuals work with the High Feature without adapter plates?


The Saab F40 from the 2.8t.


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #40, 09-15-2016 06:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Crytes:

When I get to my engine swap the engines I'm most interested in are the High Feature 6 and the Ecotec. What manuals work with the High Feature without adapter plates?


Check Mender's thread.
He's found a way to adapt a Quad 4 trans to work.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/137446.html

I am considering the LFX with a Quad 4 Getrag. Won't be anytime soon, however.


Crytes MSG #41, 09-15-2016 07:34 PM
      I thought Saab used an Ecotec f40 That was one of the things that put the Ecotec above the High Feature was I mistaken or did Saab used a F40 with both patterns?

dobey MSG #42, 09-15-2016 09:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Crytes:

I thought Saab used an Ecotec f40 That was one of the things that put the Ecotec above the High Feature was I mistaken or did Saab used a F40 with both patterns?


The 2.8t is a High Feature 2.8 liter engine. It came with the F40 six speed. The F40 also came in the Pontiac G6 with the metric bell pattern (same as stock Fiero engines), and in multiple cars with Ecotec engines.

That's three different bell patterns that were used with the F40.


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #43, 09-16-2016 08:11 AM
      For some reason, a lot of people believe the Hi Feature and Ecotec use the same pattern.
It's not true. But it seems to be a popular misconception.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-16-2017).]

Chris Eddy (ceddy@nb.net) MSG #44, 09-16-2016 09:44 PM
      The mention of VVT had me off and learning. I know folks say that they fix the cam positions, essentially putting the cam in one position as if it were ground to that fixed type. But I did some searching, and came up with a great VVT 101..
VVT 101
The only issue that I see is mention in the writeup that the VVT allows for the elimination of the EGR, which is there to reduce peak combustion temperatures. If you fix the cam, you may be back in the high peak combustion temperature arena.
If the VVT is a relationship between RPM and cam phase, then a relatively simple device could be made that controls the VVT to match cam phase given a lookup value for that RPM.
If my hunch is right, and this device did it's job, then the ECM can be programmed to preform correctly throughout the RPM ranges without having to control or even be aware of the VVT control.
I remember troubleshooting the VVT on the wife's Lexus ES300. There was a solenoid in the head for each bank that was driven by PWM (varying the current through the solenoid) which varied the oil pressure leading to the cam phaser. This type of solenoid has a variable pressure output, not just on/off (proportional). One of the two solenoids had an intermittent problem.. warm up a little, the coil would open, drop that one cam to the end, and the engine would run REALLY bad. Replaced the solenoid and it was fine.
Plus, if one did not fix the cam, but controlled it, you would get all of that power band back, not just peaking at one area.


dobey MSG #45, 09-16-2016 10:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Chris Eddy:

The mention of VVT had me off and learning. I know folks say that they fix the cam positions, essentially putting the cam in one position as if it were ground to that fixed type. But I did some searching, and came up with a great VVT 101..
VVT 101
The only issue that I see is mention in the writeup that the VVT allows for the elimination of the EGR, which is there to reduce peak combustion temperatures. If you fix the cam, you may be back in the high peak combustion temperature arena.
If the VVT is a relationship between RPM and cam phase, then a relatively simple device could be made that controls the VVT to match cam phase given a lookup value for that RPM.
If my hunch is right, and this device did it's job, then the ECM can be programmed to preform correctly throughout the RPM ranges without having to control or even be aware of the VVT control.


Wow, that article really oversimplifies some things, and gets some things just wrong. BMW's Valvetronic system in its current generation is much more complex than the article suggests, and doesn't exactly "eliminate the throttle" as stated. GM has been using VVT in single cam engines for a long time now. The Gen V LT1 in the 2014 Corvette is certainly not the first such engine with it. Several versions of the Gen IV LS engines had it, and the 60 degree V6 was the first engine to get it, over a decade ago in 2006 model year cars.

As for a separate module to control VVT independently of the ECM, why bother? The ECMs for engines which can be equipped with VVT already handle it just fine, and aftermarket controller options like the AEM Infinity or Haltech Elite also handle it very well. Programming VVT is a pretty well understood thing at this point, and not something I'd suggest making a separate custom controller module for.


Chris Eddy (ceddy@nb.net) MSG #46, 09-16-2016 10:33 PM
      I thought that the issue is that if one used the OEM ECM's, you have all of that VATS, ABS, VIN compare, et cetera to deal with.. the reason that the 3.9 is a rare conversion?
So if you deal with the VVT independently, you could drop back to a more familiar ECM that is easier to setup and does not have baggage.
And the aftermarket ECM's are pricey?
If folks are fixing the VVT, it must not be that easy.. as rare as 3.9 conversions are, it sounds like all examples are of fixed VVT.
But consider these questions, I could be way off on it.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #47, 09-17-2016 06:28 AM
      The easiest and cheapest way to put a modern drivetrain in a fiero is to get everything out of the donor car that made it run in the donor car .You need the entire wiring harness with ecm and bcm and fuel pump assembly .Get the ignition module with the key in it .When you install everything it becomes wiring that just shares the same battery as the wiring in your fiero .Most , but not all GM cars can get VATS tuned out by HP tuners .Run your stereo off the fiero harness , the new car harness does not care if there isn't a radio connected , only if the wrong one is connected .If the airbags , ABS and traction control sensors are not connected , the engine will still run fine , it just sends a warning light to the guage cluster .A sharp knife takes care of the warning light diodes , the clusters are easy to take apart . I ran my swap without the guage cluster connected and it still ran fine .I was just looking at the AEM and other stand alone systems and the cheapest was around 1000.00 without a harness or any programing .The only GM stuff that has a completed harness and pre programmed is for LS V8 motors , nothing for ecotec or V6 engines .

dobey MSG #48, 09-17-2016 07:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Chris Eddy:

I thought that the issue is that if one used the OEM ECM's, you have all of that VATS, ABS, VIN compare, et cetera to deal with.. the reason that the 3.9 is a rare conversion?
So if you deal with the VVT independently, you could drop back to a more familiar ECM that is easier to setup and does not have baggage.
And the aftermarket ECM's are pricey?
If folks are fixing the VVT, it must not be that easy.. as rare as 3.9 conversions are, it sounds like all examples are of fixed VVT.
But consider these questions, I could be way off on it.


Well, yes, if you use the OEM ECM, certain things need to be dealt with. However, we're not talking about the 3.9 in this thread. We're talking about the 3.6 DOHC engines, the particularly interesting versions of which are SIDI. The 3500/3900 engines are a completely different thing to the 2.8/3.0/3.2/3.6 DOHC engines.

Most people who lock the cam(s) on VVT engines are doing it out of ignorance, not because the programming of VVT itself is hard. If you really want to run VVT, and are worried about VATS/ABS/etc… in an OEM ECM, then it would be much better to use an aftermarket ECM, rather than an older OEM ECM which just doesn't support VVT and then trying to make some separate custom module to only control the VVT.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #49, 09-17-2016 08:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Most people who lock the cam(s) on VVT engines are doing it out of ignorance, not because the programming of VVT itself is hard.


I disagree, those who locked cams on VVT engines did so for several reasons, none of which was ignorance in the true meaning of that term. It was an alternative to the exceptional amount of expense required to set a VVT engine transplant up as designed during a time when the technology was still very new in the aftermarket, at least in GM production cars and the likelihood of being at the mercy of someone else with the necessary equipment to edit programming which could be expensive and time consuming and I refuse to do that.

The difficulty level and time requirement involved in incorporating the sophisticated electronics (as well as the drivetrain) to properly run a VVT motor into a 30 year old car properly is the hanging point, as some of us just want to run the motor in our cars without the madness. The 3.6L has been around for about the same number of years as the 3.9 but it has yet to find its way to complete install in a Fiero. It's a lot of work which few can accomplish on their own to even get to the practicality point expense wise, given the value of the Fiero, and if it breaks down who's going to fix it if you can't?

Locking a VVT cam upright is a work around and my memory vaguely tells me it was you I believe that brought to light that some owners were converting their OE VVT LS motors to the non VVT OE version because they made more power, during a discussion here on this very topic. I could be wrong but I believe it was you as you're pretty knowledgeable on the topic.

There's nothing wrong with "making it work", that's why we have so many different transplanted motors in the Fiero now. A 3.6L in a Fiero with locked cams is still a 3.6L and would still perform quite well. My 3.6 build when I get the time for it will be in the 2008up Cadillac it came in, because I just don't care to put that kind of work in a Fiero, but highly encourage anyone that does to do so, I'd like to see it.


dobey MSG #50, 09-17-2016 10:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
I disagree, those who locked cams on VVT engines did so for several reasons, none of which was ignorance in the true meaning of that term. It was an alternative to the exceptional amount of expense required to set a VVT engine transplant up as designed during a time when the technology was still very new in the aftermarket, at least in GM production cars and the likelihood of being at the mercy of someone else with the necessary equipment to edit programming which could be expensive and time consuming and I refuse to do that.


I said most people, not all. When people started grabbing truck motors out of the yard and deleting VVT, there was a lot of ignorance about how VVT was worse for performance engines (and really, there still is a lot of that ignorance floating around). This has been by far the most prevalent "reason" I've seen used. While it's true that many people are doing swaps using DIY ECMs that may not necessarily support VVT, it is not the excuse used for deleting VVT in most cases. In fact, so many people have done VVT deletions on LSx engines, that they actually made it more difficult to find accurate information on the technology for a while. There is still a lot of misinformation out there, but now that there's plenty of aftermarket VVT cams on the market, it's at least a little less difficult to find such accurate information.

However, I still come across so many threads and videos claiming that VVT is worse for performance engines. This is just demonstrably false. VVT is better for performance, better for emissions, and better for fuel economy.

And regardless, i don't think VVT is the main reason people aren't swapping 3500/3900 engines in the Fiero, and not the topic of this thread.

 
quote

Locking a VVT cam upright is a work around and my memory vaguely tells me it was you I believe that brought to light that some owners were converting their OE VVT LS motors to the non VVT OE version because they made more power, during a discussion here on this very topic. I could be wrong but I believe it was you as you're pretty knowledgeable on the topic.


If I did state this, I'm pretty sure I would have qualified that as "they are doing it because they believe it will make more power" rather than because it's an absolute fact that it does. Non-VVT camshafts can only be used to make power in a certain range. As most people installing camshafts in LSx motors tend to install big cams with wider LSAs, they might see a decently large enough peak number in the high end, but are sacrificing the low end to get it. Because of the wide LSAs and large durations these cams have, VVT would be somewhat problematic for many of these very large cams. However, these tend to also introduce other expenses such as needing clutches or torque converters which also sacrifice driveability. If they would cut back on the LSA and duration a bit, an LSx could easily make near the same peak numbers, but have a much wider powerband, and remain driveable on the street, as well as getting better MPG with lower emissions.

In my build, I'm doing exactly the opposite of what most of these people do with VVT. I'm retrofitting it into an engine which didn't come with it. I found a decent cam, but it was only in non-VVT form, so I took the numbers and had a custom grind made on a VVT core. My goal is to get at least 400 HP/400 lbs-ft at the crank, and 40 MPG highway, as well as being able to meet CA's SULEV standard.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 09-17-2016).]

Chris Eddy (ceddy@nb.net) MSG #51, 09-17-2016 11:11 AM
     
 
quote
In my build, I'm doing exactly the opposite of what most of these people do with VVT. I'm retrofitting it into an engine which didn't come with it.

Well don't leave us in suspense.. how are you controlling the VVT in your franken-cam?


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #52, 09-17-2016 12:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


If I did state this, I'm pretty sure I would have qualified that as "they are doing it because they believe it will make more power" rather than because it's an absolute fact that it does. Non-VVT camshafts can only be used to make power in a certain range. As most people installing camshafts in LSx motors tend to install big cams with wider LSAs, they might see a decently large enough peak number in the high end, but are sacrificing the low end to get it. Because of the wide LSAs and large durations these cams have, VVT would be somewhat problematic for many of these very large cams. However, these tend to also introduce other expenses such as needing clutches or torque converters which also sacrifice driveability. If they would cut back on the LSA and duration a bit, an LSx could easily make near the same peak numbers, but have a much wider powerband, and remain driveable on the street, as well as getting better MPG with lower emissions.

In my build, I'm doing exactly the opposite of what most of these people do with VVT. I'm retrofitting it into an engine which didn't come with it. I found a decent cam, but it was only in non-VVT form, so I took the numbers and had a custom grind made on a VVT core. My goal is to get at least 400 HP/400 lbs-ft at the crank, and 40 MPG highway, as well as being able to meet CA's SULEV standard.



Thanks for the clarification. I was only focusing on the Fiero Forum and 60 degree exploits. The VVT delete conversation I'm referencing was also toggling dyno test results and the conversation was more along the lines of anti VVT as it was suggesting that VVT was more a means to eliminate EGR valves which is probably the case in cam in block engines. DOHC motors on the other hand stand to gain a lot more versatility with the ability to independently change intake and exhaust timing and I'd certainly prefer it to get the most in performance and fuel efficiency.


dobey MSG #53, 09-17-2016 12:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Chris Eddy:

Well don't leave us in suspense.. how are you controlling the VVT in your franken-cam?


GM e38 ECM


dobey MSG #54, 09-17-2016 12:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
Thanks for the clarification. I was only focusing on the Fiero Forum and 60 degree exploits. The VVT delete conversation I'm referencing was also toggling dyno test results and the conversation was more along the lines of anti VVT as it was suggesting that VVT was more a means to eliminate EGR valves which is probably the case in cam in block engines. DOHC motors on the other hand stand to gain a lot more versatility with the ability to independently change intake and exhaust timing and I'd certainly prefer it to get the most in performance and fuel efficiency.


Really, VVT is not a means to eliminate EGR in cam-in-block engines. It's much more useful for that in DOHC engines (or in Hemis with the cam-in-cam design), where intake and exhaust are independently controlled. The GM cam-in-block engines have a static overlap value, so EGR is much harder to control from a VVT perspective in that sense. In the Hemi cam-in-cam or in DOHC engines, the overlap can be changed, to a much larger degree in the DOHC engines, which allows for meaningful EGR control at cruising speeds. With the introduction of the Gen IV LS engines in 2005, EGR was completely eliminated, but the Gen IV didn't get VVT until 2008. There were still some other engine families with EGR valves and/or A.I.R. of course, including the 3.5/3.9, I'm only talking about the LS for sake of simplicity. However, with VVT, at cruise speeds, the cam can be placed into the fully retarded position under light load cruise conditions, which reduces power output to increase efficiency, which greatly reduces the need for an EGR valve to meet emissions requirements, and thus lowers production costs.

For an all out race car that won't be driven on the street, and will spend almost all of its time at 5000+ RPM, deleting VVT and going totally wild on the cam will probably be a better option. But for a street driven car, even that may see part time track duty, I think a milder cam with VVT will almost always be a better option, giving more total output even if peak numbers are slightly lower. I would do whatever I can to use VVT in any engine swap I was doing, if possible. I totally understand your reasoning for wanting to lock the cam in your swap, but maybe now that tuning options are easier to come by (I presume you tune your car with HP Tuners, which can handle VVT in the GM ECMs), you might want to look into possibly unlocking the cam and tuning the VVT to give you a smoother power band and better fuel economy.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #55, 09-17-2016 05:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
(I presume you tune your car with HP Tuners, which can handle VVT in the GM ECMs), you might want to look into possibly unlocking the cam and tuning the VVT to give you a smoother power band and better fuel economy.


It's all give and take, GM is holding back on the compression ratio. It's high by old standards but not by new combustion chamber design and fuel delivery tech. I believe they're inching along to avoid giving too much too soon and having greater difficulty in the future meeting increasing EPA demands. My fuel economy is great at 27-28 mpg hwy and exceeded 30+ on the first build with higher compression. If I'm not mistaken the latest 3.6L in some applications is still rated for 87 octane with as high as 11.X compression so I know they can go much higher than that on pump gas even if it requires premium fuel. The performance increase would be far greater than a mere 10% naturally aspirated if they took greater advantage of the compression ratio which I would do and is why I'm so interested in this engine.

I understand the crank pins are 2.2" so I'd be looking to stroke the motor in addition to the compression bump the same as I did with the 3.9L.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 09-17-2016).]

dobey MSG #56, 09-17-2016 09:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
It's all give and take, GM is holding back on the compression ratio. It's high by old standards but not by new combustion chamber design and fuel delivery tech. I believe they're inching along to avoid giving too much too soon and having greater difficulty in the future meeting increasing EPA demands. My fuel economy is great at 27-28 mpg hwy and exceeded 30+ on the first build with higher compression. If I'm not mistaken the latest 3.6L in some applications is still rated for 87 octane with as high as 11.X compression so I know they can go much higher than that on pump gas even if it requires premium fuel. The performance increase would be far greater than a mere 10% naturally aspirated if they took greater advantage of the compression ratio which I would do and is why I'm so interested in this engine.

I understand the crank pins are 2.2" so I'd be looking to stroke the motor in addition to the compression bump the same as I did with the 3.9L.


Yeah, the CR is getting up there. It's 11.5:1 on the Gen V LT1 and L86 too. The LT4 is dropped down to 10.0:1 for the boost though. I'm building my LS4 to be around 11:1. I think they're "slowly" working it up to the point where they switch over to HCCI instead of spark ignition. They've been working on it for a while now, but I guess they haven't quite got it to where it needs to be for reliability and driveability in production cars yet. I'm expecting the Zora mid-engine Vette to be a hybrid car too. No idea what the engine will be exactly, other than I expect it to be based on the Gen V V8. I think there are a couple of Ecotec (or similar) engines used in some Opels that had up to 12.0:1 compression.

Heck, Honda had some cars with 11.1:1 in the 90s/00s. The B16A3 in my del Sol is 10.4:1. It requires premium, because it is PFI and engine management back then wasn't anywhere near what it is today, but it gets 28 MPG around town and mid-high 30s on the highway.


Crytes MSG #57, 09-18-2016 09:16 AM
      So how high does compression get before an engine stops being spark ignition? Or is the practical limit on compression from some element now? What I want is a street friendly 500 hp fiero with a power tain about the same weight as stock and decent milage for commute driving. I'm thinking this will require leveraging and pushing all the technology available to it's practical limit. Or just a pipe dream.

fieroguru MSG #58, 09-18-2016 10:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Crytes:
What I want is a street friendly 500 hp fiero with a power tain about the same weight as stock and decent milage for commute driving. I'm thinking this will require leveraging and pushing all the technology available to it's practical limit. Or just a pipe dream.


Not sure if you are talking rwhp or fwhp, by my LS4/F40 88 Fiero has 382 whp (about 430 fwhp), weighs a little over 2800 lbs, and averaged 23 mpg on the 2800 mile HRPT (lots of stop/go, AC on, some 110mph sprints on toll roads). Some tanks I see at high at 29 mpg depending on type of driving. I have put 34K miles on it in 3 years as I daily drive it most days except for winter or when there is salt on the road. I could add a small shot of nos and easily get to your targets without compromising the other criteria.

I am in the planning stages for adding a turbo...


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #59, 09-18-2016 01:59 PM
      One issue with the stock ecu was the vehicle speed sensor. There is not a sensor in the transmission on the Saab F40. It uses the ABS module to send the VSS signal on the can bus line. I wasn't about to add that in. The AEM wants to know the VSS also, but I spoke with Speedhut (the manufacturer of my gauges) and they do offer a VSS output from their GPS speedometer on some models.
I'll have to update my build thread one of these days....There is quite a bit to update.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 09-18-2016).]

Crytes MSG #60, 09-18-2016 03:49 PM
      FieroGuru I din't realize transmission losses were so great. 383 Wheel to 430 Flywheel is a 11% lose. Either way I'd be happy with flywheel numbers close enough to call 500hp I like the idea of say my car has 5 time the power of stock. I figured a turbo would be needed to get into the power I want and a dual spool looks good for drivability. Currently I'm looking at the F40 but don't like the idea of adapting it to a different engine too many wear parts for my taste. The LS4 does look nice tho might have to look at your page again and see if I can live with the compromises to make it fit. Until I start buying parts my current idea is to see is the new Ecotec 2.5 will accept the top end off the new 2.0 turbo my guess is that combo should be close if it can be tuned in.

dobey MSG #61, 09-18-2016 03:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Crytes:

So how high does compression get before an engine stops being spark ignition? Or is the practical limit on compression from some element now? What I want is a street friendly 500 hp fiero with a power tain about the same weight as stock and decent milage for commute driving. I'm thinking this will require leveraging and pushing all the technology available to it's practical limit. Or just a pipe dream.


Compression ration is unrelated to whether an engine is spark ignition or not. An engine not being spark ignition means it doesn't have spark plugs applying spark to the compressed mixture for ignition.

As far as getting 500 HP in a Fiero with decent MPG, well, like fieroguru said, are you talking BHP or WHP? What is "decent" MPG for you? Being able to make a 500 HP number on a dyno at peak, and getting decent MPG are two very different things. It's possible to do both, but it requires an engine built to do that, and a decent understanding of how to get it. The easiest way to get both optimal HP and optimal MPG, is to go with as small an engine as you can, which can handle as much boost as possible, with a turbo. With the right combination and boost control, you can totally disable boost at cruise speeds to get maximum MPG, or turn it all the way up when on the dyno, to get maximum HP. Anything over about 250-300 HP, you will never actually put to the ground during a normal commute in a car that weighs as little as the Fiero does.


dobey MSG #62, 09-18-2016 04:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

One issue with the stock ecu was the vehicle speed sensor. There is not a sensor in the transmission on the Saab F40. It uses the ABS module to send the VSS signal on the can bus line. I wasn't about to add that in. The AEM wants to know the VSS also, but I spoke with Speedhut (the manufacturer of my gauges) and they do offer a VSS output from their GPS speedometer on some models.
I'll have to update my build thread one of these days....There is quite a bit to update.
Dave



Really? I thought it had a magnetic sensor above the ring gear? The F40 MT2 trans in the G6 certainly does have a VSS.


Crytes MSG #63, 09-18-2016 04:59 PM
      There are many ways around a VSS. GPS devices are simple to install but have accuracy issues. You could make your own as well. If I remember right you are just looking for pulse at a rate of about 2000 per mile depending on your setup you could arrange one or hall effect sensors on your drive shaft these can be designed to give a direct signal or to be modulated to calibrate for different size tries. And with a sensor one each side of a drive shaft you can measure flex which after calculations can be used to give you real time torque/hp measurements.

gtjoe MSG #64, 09-18-2016 06:55 PM
      I wonder if it would be possible to put the vss from a g6 f40 in the saab f40?

dobey MSG #65, 09-18-2016 10:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Really? I thought it had a magnetic sensor above the ring gear? The F40 MT2 trans in the G6 certainly does have a VSS.


Oh, I guess the Saab and Ecotec versions of the F40 don't have a VSS: http://zzperformance.com/ecotec/f40-base-kit.html

But it looks like their half shaft and sensor bracket could be used, to add the missing VSS. It might be cheaper to just get a G6 trans, split the case, and use the High Feature bell housing with the G6 guts half, than buy that ZZP kit, though.


dobey MSG #66, 09-18-2016 10:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by gtjoe:

I wonder if it would be possible to put the vss from a g6 f40 in the saab f40?


It appears not. It's possible the case could be machined to accept one in the same location though, but not sure if anyone's ever done it, what the cost would be, or if the ring gear in the Saab/Ecotec versions of the trans will work with the VSS.

Edit: Found some much better pictures of an Ecotec version of the trans, and it looks like the rear half casting is a fair bit different, and it cannot be machined to fit the G6 VSS at all.

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 09-18-2016).]

Crytes MSG #67, 09-19-2016 04:12 AM
      The different F40s look to be totally different castings so my guess is while generally anything can be made to fit I doubt it will be plug and play on a transmission for an application that didn't need it.

mender MSG #68, 09-19-2016 10:54 AM
      People seem to forget the Jag HE engines with up to 12.5:1 compression:
"A high-efficiency 5.3 HE version debuted in 1981. This used the special high-swirl design "May" cylinder heads, and had an unusually high compression ratio (10.5:1 – 12.5:1, depending on market and year). In any given market, power levels remained similar to the previous model, but fuel economy was improved by nearly 50%. The HE V12 engines had a fuel injection system from Lucas (dubbed Lucas Digital P) which was based on the Bosch D-Jetronic system.[7]"

For VSS, one can use a wheel speed sensor directly; that might be easier than retrofitting an F40 trans. Hopefully I will have time soon to finish the F23 to HF brackets and get my 3.6 swap going, pretty sure the F23 has a VSS.

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 09-19-2016).]

2.5 MSG #69, 09-19-2016 11:14 AM
      Is there a reason its called "High Feature"?

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 09-19-2016).]

ericjon262 MSG #70, 09-19-2016 01:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mender:

For VSS, one can use a wheel speed sensor directly; that might be easier than retrofitting an F40 trans. Hopefully I will have time soon to finish the F23 to HF brackets and get my 3.6 swap going, pretty sure the F23 has a VSS.



it does, or at least the metric bellhousing version does.


dobey MSG #71, 09-19-2016 01:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Is there a reason its called "High Feature"?



It is the name ascribed by GM. Other engine families also have similar naming:

Cadillac 4.1/4.5/4.9 - High Technology engine
3500/3900 V6 - High Value engine

I presume the "High Feature" name was given as the design allowed for a greater (high) number of features to be implemented in the platform over the years, without significant changes to the overall design of the engine itself.


qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #72, 11-15-2017 08:05 PM
      so this is an old tread, but i want to bring back the discussion of the high feature 3.6 in a Fiero. I have a chance to grab one w/ 6 speed AT for a daily driver. Has anyone figured out the tuning?

Rob


mender MSG #73, 11-15-2017 08:17 PM
      Try Overkill as I mentioned on page 1. I still haven't finished my swap so no confirmation on his tuning but I had enough faith to pay him for it.

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #74, 11-16-2017 03:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

so this is an old tread, but i want to bring back the discussion of the high feature 3.6 in a Fiero. I have a chance to grab one w/ 6 speed AT for a daily driver. Has anyone figured out the tuning?

Rob


I have since acquired that 2008 Cadillac CTS SIDI I mentioned above some time ago. I love the car, but, the associated electronics is no joke. Unless you are able to source a stand alone PCM modification, and or have unlimited time to graft such a complex system into a Fiero, my advice to you is don't even think about it. My statement of building a 3.6L for its intended platform was wisdom in ways I was not aware of.

The High feature V6 also equals high maintenance potential, especially the SIDI version. If you remove the fuel injectors from he SIDI motor that's an automatic ~$200 in non reusable parts that must be replaced; pressure sensor, all injector seals one of which requires a special tool to install and two fuel pipes as a result of the danger the high rail pressure poses in the event of a high pressure leak. Idle pressure is around 500 psi and it goes up from there.

If you find you must install the BCM, that's another monster who's size depends on the application in regards to on board features as it will put the system in limp mode if it doesn't see certain modules functioning properly and HPtuners may not be able to access/address the necessary parameters to get around it. In addition to that, the programming in the Bosch PCM used from ~07 to 2012 where GM switched to a Delphi PCM and system, is a headache to tune and some reported even dangerous as the programming is complicated with interlinking tables where a seemingly harmless entry in moderation through HP Tuners can lead to an exaggerated response, like not releasing the throttle when you take your foot off the accelerator (remember Toyota and their problem similar to this). That's from someone who was experimenting with tuning so the 2012 and up PCM is the way to go as it is said by experienced tuners to be fairly straight forward unlike the earlier Bosch system. Otherwise, baby, baby-steps with the Bosch.

As for the VVT, It's often not said if ever, but I'm pretty sure it plays a part in the ability to run regular unleaded with a compression ratio greater than 11:1 in addition to EGR effects at least in the DOHC motors. For starters, the intake valve does not open until 14 degrees after top dead center which effectively lowers cylinder filling efficiency potential vs. if it opened at 4 deg before TDC. That effectively counters a high compression ratio. At cold start the engine runs about 1600 rpm and the intake camshafts are commanded to about 15 deg advance. Once warm up is complete both intake and exhaust cams settle down to 0 deg. You can actually hear the change in exhaust tone outside the car as it happens. Intake cams are only capable of advancing and exhaust retarding from their parked positions.

I suspect the programming uses a combination of camshaft position and spark timing to control spark knock for dynamic performance as either can be advanced in small increments gradually to achieve the maximum potential that a given fuel octane can sustain. In other words, premium fuel = premium power.

One thing I would turn off in the car if I could is traction control which seems overly sensitive. I dropped the rear tire off the curb cutting it a bit sharp leaving the fuel station and immediately power was cut briefly. I hit a small bump in the road during a turn at about 25 mph and again power was cut briefly, it didn't take much, just the little thump felt in the car was enough. There are sensors all over the place and I believe the above incidents were in conjunction with the steering column sensor which probably increased sensitivity because the car was in the middle of a turn where there would be an increased possibility of spinning out although that wasn't the case.

Plug and play is over. Now it's plug and plug and plug, keep plugging, etc... The most basic optioned donor system will likely offer the least amount of trouble if that term can even be used here. If someone sponsored me to complete such a swap in a Fiero for myself I wouldn't do it.

Good luck to anyone willing to try. Do your homework before you spend a penny as these motors are very sensitive to some changes and some stock parts although they will fit across different 3.6L applications, they may not result in satisfactory performance when paired with a PCM that was not programmed to use them, camshafts, high pressure pumps and injectors for example not to mention the different intake and cylinder head designs.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-16-2017).]

mender MSG #75, 11-16-2017 05:35 PM
      As Joseph said, use the E39 based engine (LFX) and stay away from the Bosch. I think the six speed auto only came with the LFX so you might be good but check anyway.

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 11-16-2017).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #76, 11-18-2017 11:54 PM
      Rob, I contacted Overkill about LFX programming. Said that if I went with a manual tranny, he would program an E39 ecm as a stand alone unit with a 2012 Camaro tune. He discouraged going with an automatic. He said it would require the ECM, BCM, and transmission module to all be programmed and used, but he was unsure if he could make it all work.
Daryl M


qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #77, 11-25-2017 11:32 PM
      Damn shame, there are three of them at my local pick n pull and its half off weekend. Motor/trans and everything would be about $300 - $400 bucks.

Rob


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #78, 11-26-2017 09:25 PM
      Rob, Pick up an LFX with the ECM and gas pedal for half price, then find a Saab Aero F40. If you drive an automatic, the muscles in your left leg will atrafee.

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #79, 11-28-2017 07:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mender:

As Joseph said, use the E39 based engine (LFX) and stay away from the Bosch. I think the six speed auto only came with the LFX so you might be good but check anyway.



The LFX also came in the Camaro, with a manual.
I was going to try to copy the VDF file from a friend of mine (has a 2012 LFX / manual) but it was "tuned and locked." I would have been perfectly fine with a stock VDF.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-28-2017).]

mender MSG #80, 11-29-2017 03:17 PM
      I was meaning that if it had a six speed auto on it, it was an LFX and not an LLT.

I have a Camaro 6 speed manual buried in my shop somewhere ...


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #81, 11-29-2017 04:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mender:

I was meaning that if it had a six speed auto on it, it was an LFX and not an LLT.

I have a Camaro 6 speed manual buried in my shop somewhere ...


Ooops. Sorry.


mender MSG #82, 11-29-2017 07:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


Ooops. Sorry.

Dang it, I forgot the smiley! No problem!

[This message has been edited by mender (edited 11-29-2017).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #83, 12-03-2017 12:51 AM
      FYI I just checked Car-Parts.com. they list over 20 F40 Saab transmissions from cars with 2.8 l V6 engines.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #84, 10-13-2018 12:05 AM
      Finally done building a shop so the real work in the LFX/F40 swap begins. I did a test fit of the flywheel/clutch/transmission to the engine. All seemed to go ok, but I have a question that I hope someone will have an opinion about. How many bell housing bolts are required for the transaxle to be sufficiently attached to the engine? I can easily get 8 bolts, but more than that will be a bit of a pain in the butt. The bolts along the bottom are the ones that are problematic..
Thanks,
Daryl


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #85, 10-17-2018 09:45 PM
      Hi all,
I need to pick the community brain. The LFX engine I am in the process of putting in my 88 has a motor mount/jack shaft bearing carrier that came on the 2013 Impala donor car. With the f40 manual tranny attached, the jackshaft is about 10mm lower than it was with the automatic from the impala. My question is if anyone knows if there is a mount that would fit my application? I realize it may be a long shot but if a mount exists, I would rather do that than build one.
Thanks
Daryl


engine man (fieroa8@gmail.com) MSG #86, 10-19-2018 10:28 AM
      why wouldn't the mount from the sab that uses the 2.8 work same engine as the 3.6 but just less displacment i think

arbakken MSG #87, 10-19-2018 01:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Finally done building a shop so the real work in the LFX/F40 swap begins. I did a test fit of the flywheel/clutch/transmission to the engine. All seemed to go ok, but I have a question that I hope someone will have an opinion about. How many bell housing bolts are required for the transaxle to be sufficiently attached to the engine? I can easily get 8 bolts, but more than that will be a bit of a pain in the butt. The bolts along the bottom are the ones that are problematic..
Thanks,
Daryl


Do you have a picture? You're using the Saab f40, correct? Saab flywheel and clutch? I ask because I'm very interested in swap and may follow in your footsteps... or 2.0T ecotec...

[This message has been edited by arbakken (edited 10-19-2018).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #88, 10-19-2018 11:28 PM
      Engine man, some days I am just not paying attention. I forgot that the jackshaft I got was from a 4 cylinder. It came with a jackshaft support that was not also a motor mount. I don't know if the 2.8 turbo has what I need or not. Worth a check though.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #89, 10-19-2018 11:32 PM
      Arbakken, yes I am using the Saab clutch with a solid flywheel.

arbakken MSG #90, 10-20-2018 12:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Arbakken, yes I am using the Saab clutch with a solid flywheel.


What did the flywheel come out of?


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #91, 10-20-2018 04:00 PM
      https://www.specclutches.com/741094/

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #92, 10-20-2018 04:08 PM
      https://i.imgur.com/cxLUnwF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aMXt7FN.jpg
These photos are of the Impala mount. Notice the mounting holes are about 1/2" off. The Saab unit does not incorporate the motor mount into the shaft bearing carrier. At least the one I got with the shaft doesn't, and it doesn't fit the engine block either, but that is probably because it is from a 4 cylinder Saab.
(First time posting pictures. Hope it works)


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #93, 10-27-2018 11:30 PM
      https://i.imgur.com/4t2gUWz.jpg

Time to figure out the mounts.


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #94, 11-19-2018 12:30 PM
      Daryl,

I'm into a very similar swap at the moment with a transverse LFX out of a caddy... I'm also using a saab 9-3 2.8 v6 F40 and have the saab half shaft setup as well.

If I read your post correctly, why are trying to make the Impala automatic half shaft/carrier work with your manual.... you could easily get pontiac G6 halfshaft/carrier combo from GM for ~$130 + shipping from several online GM parts dealers... or even scavenge a saab halfshaft/carrier if available....

Regarding the Saab F40, have you figured out a way to deal with the lack of a VSS? Not interested in a GPS VSS sender..... I'm looking at ways to adapt an ABS tone ring to the fiero DS CV axle to get the signal to the ECU. It should be possible to pull the bellhousing off the saab F40 and 'slap' it onto a 60 deg F40 to get an in-transaxle VSS... might have to go that way if a I can't get the abs tone ring to work. I think FieroGuro has cracked several F40 cases... might need to ask him on this...

Marc

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 11-19-2018).]

fieroguru MSG #95, 11-19-2018 09:12 PM
      Swapping the G6 F40 gear side of the transmission to the Saab bellhousing half would allow using the G6 VSS on the ring gear. The only potential issue is the G6 F40 case is missing 2 bolt holes from the later, more reinforced F40s. I don't know which style you have.

This the reinforced version with 2 extra holes:


This is the G6 F40 Version:


Another option is to pick up the Regal/Ecotec F40. It is a reinforced version and has a VSS ring added to the upper main shaft and a sensor location on the transmission case.



If you are going to start swapping the gear side cases, do that before you make your transmission mounts as the only common holes are the ones connecting the two transmission halves.

Also, many of the newer versions switched to a 2 bolt flange for the shifter mechanism. The G6 version has 3 holes.


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #96, 11-19-2018 11:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Swapping the G6 F40 gear side of the transmission to the Saab bellhousing half would allow using the G6 VSS on the ring gear. The only potential issue is the G6 F40 case is missing 2 bolt holes from the later, more reinforced F40s. I don't know which style you have.

If you are going to start swapping the gear side cases, do that before you make your transmission mounts as the only common holes are the ones connecting the two transmission halves.

Also, many of the newer versions switched to a 2 bolt flange for the shifter mechanism. The G6 version has 3 holes.


It's Saab F40 from a 2008 9-3 2.8L Turbo... obviously I was after the global pattern bellhousing for mating to the high feature V6s... from initial inspection and look overs it's very very similar to the 60 deg F40, but will have to clean it up and get some pics up for us to compare..


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #97, 11-20-2018 12:28 AM
      Amazing what gets posted after I build a custom mount. 😝 as it turns out it may have been just as easy anyway. Other projects will be taking my spare time til after Dec 10th , o keep up the great work and if I ever figure out how to post photos, I'll show you what I've been up to. As it is now, I have been sharing them on the Arizona Fiero FB page.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #98, 11-20-2018 11:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Swapping the G6 F40 gear side of the transmission to the Saab bellhousing half would allow using the G6 VSS on the ring gear. The only potential issue is the G6 F40 case is missing 2 bolt holes from the later, more reinforced F40s. I don't know which style you have.

This the reinforced version with 2 extra holes:


This is the G6 F40 Version:


Another option is to pick up the Regal/Ecotec F40. It is a reinforced version and has a VSS ring added to the upper main shaft and a sensor location on the transmission case.



If you are going to start swapping the gear side cases, do that before you make your transmission mounts as the only common holes are the ones connecting the two transmission halves.

Also, many of the newer versions switched to a 2 bolt flange for the shifter mechanism. The G6 version has 3 holes.


Wild. Thanks for sharing. Is your G6 F40 the '06 or '07 version? The '06 cars have an MT2 gear ratios, while the '07's received the MU9 gear ratios. I don't know how many of these changes (if any others) were incorporated between the two transmissions.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-20-2018).]

fieroguru MSG #99, 11-20-2018 02:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Wild. Thanks for sharing. Is your G6 F40 the '06 or '07 version? The '06 cars have an MT2 gear ratios, while the '07's received the MU9 gear ratios. I don't know how many of these changes (if any others) were incorporated between the two transmissions.


All of my G6 F40s are the 2006 MT2 version. I am pretty sure everything on the cases is the same with the 2007 G6 version. Where I have seen most of the changes is across applications. The Opel case I have from the 3.09 final swap, has the reinforced case, deeper bell housing, and several other changes. When I look at pictures of the 2014+ F40 from the Regals, it has more in common with the Opel version than the G6 version.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #100, 11-23-2018 01:56 PM
      What system did you get that exploded diagram from?

fieroguru MSG #101, 11-23-2018 02:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

What system did you get that exploded diagram from?


It was from a GM Online parts lookup tool. I saved the diagrams for the entire transmission. Unfortunately, not every part has a part# associated with it.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #102, 11-23-2018 04:13 PM
      Right... we went through that with the MT2 6th gear pair.

msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #103, 12-03-2018 10:21 AM
      Daryl,

What axles did you end up using?


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #104, 12-07-2018 12:55 AM
      The axles I went with are from a Cobalt 2.0l supercharged, with the Saab intermediate shaft.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #105, 12-17-2018 12:53 AM
      Update:
I have decided to try to use a Dakota Digital magnetic pickup and 5 magnets on the intermediate axle shaft to provide a VSS signal. I am also going to use a Dakota Digital SGI-5 unit to adjust for exact speed. Any thoughts?


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #106, 12-17-2018 06:02 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Update:
I have decided to try to use a Dakota Digital magnetic pickup and 5 magnets on the intermediate axle shaft to provide a VSS signal. I am also going to use a Dakota Digital SGI-5 unit to adjust for exact speed. Any thoughts?


In that case why not consider sourcing a small threaded universal sensor and drilling a hole in the case over the final drive gear for location similar to the early F40. I used the SGI-5 module with the stock sensor and Darths digital circuit and it worked dependably for the 5 or 6 yrs I had it.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #107, 12-17-2018 11:02 PM
      Joseph, for the sake of simplicity and to avoid dismantling the transmission, I decided to mount the aperatice externally.

fieroguru MSG #108, 12-18-2018 12:50 AM
      You could stick with the stock VSS sensor and just find a simple sprocket with the proper ID to press onto the axle/Tripot



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #109, 12-18-2018 01:43 AM
      Guru, interesting method, but I have already ordered what I need for the setup I have planned. Thanks though. If my setup doesn't work I may give this a try.
Daryl


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #110, 12-18-2018 12:06 PM
      I very well may drill a hole into the saab case and add the VSS as I just nicked a new F40 Quaife for a very fair price and will be splitting the case with a transmission repair fella to get it installed... might as well install the lower ratio final drive as well as guru recommends...

Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #111, 12-18-2018 01:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

You could stick with the stock VSS sensor and just find a simple sprocket with the proper ID to press onto the axle/Tripot



What is the RPM at 65mph with the custom ratio?
My understanding is that the first gear is to low, witch works well for a low power engine but worthless for the LS4. And that the final is to high, basically a freeway gear for fuel economy and not usable for anything else. But changing the final gear on the differential will change all 6 gears. So if I understand this modification correctly, how compatible are the 6 gears after the modification?


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #112, 12-18-2018 01:57 PM
      Guru,

Can the lower differential ring gear be swapped out only or do you have to swap the diff ring gear AND pinion?


fieroguru MSG #113, 12-18-2018 02:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


What is the RPM at 65mph with the custom ratio?
My understanding is that the first gear is to low, witch works well for a low power engine but worthless for the LS4. And that the final is to high, basically a freeway gear for fuel economy and not usable for anything else. But changing the final gear on the differential will change all 6 gears. So if I understand this modification correctly, how compatible are the 6 gears after the modification?


It depends on your tire diameter. My 285/30/18 rear wheels are 24.8" in diameter, which is close to stock Fiero. The change to the 3.09 final drive really gives the car a factory V8 feel vs. feeling like it is way over geared (all gears too short), which is what it feels like with the Fiero getrag.

1st gear is now like a C5 ZO6 with a T56 with a 3.90 final drive and 6th gear is like a C5 ZO6 with a 3.45 final drive... both feel very close to stock for a V8 performance car. There are some differences in the gear spreads because the F40 is a wide ratio and the T56 is more of a close ratio. There are other gear options for 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th if you feel like tearing down the input shaft as well. There is also a 3.348 final drive for those that want something in between the 3.55 and the 3.09.

code:


TRANSMISSION GEAR RATIOS
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th FD 1st * FD 6th * FD
Fiero Getrag 3.50 2.05 1.38 0.94 0.72 3.61 12.64 2.60
F40 w/ 3.55 3.77 2.04 1.32 0.95 0.76 0.62 3.55 13.38 2.20
F40 w/ 3.09 3.77 2.04 1.32 0.95 0.76 0.62 3.09 11.65 1.92


MAXIMUM MPH BY GEAR
Dia RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
Fiero Getrag 24.8 7000 40.9 69.8 103.6 152.1 198.6 N/A
F40 w/ 3.55 24.8 7000 38.6 71.3 110.2 153.1 191.3 234.5
F40 w/ 3.09 24.8 7000 44.3 81.9 126.6 175.8 219.8 269.4


Cruise RPM At 65 Cruise RPM At 85
Dia RPM MPH Dia RPM MPH
Fiero Getrag 24.8 2291 65.00 24.8 2996 85.00
F40 w/ 3.55 24.8 1940 65.00 24.8 2537 85.00
F40 w/ 3.09 24.8 1689 65.01 24.8 2208 84.99




[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-18-2018).]

fieroguru MSG #114, 12-18-2018 02:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Guru,

Can the lower differential ring gear be swapped out only or do you have to swap the diff ring gear AND pinion?


You have to swap the ring gear and the two main shafts (the 3 parts in the center). The overall diameter of the ring gear gets smaller, but the distance between the main shaft and differential remains the same, so the "pinion" gear on the main shafts is larger on the 3.09 gear set.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-18-2018).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #115, 01-01-2019 03:15 AM
     
Attempting to post a few photos from my phone.







Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #116, 01-03-2019 12:39 AM
      https://i.postimg.cc/gkTM2T...81229-172139-HDR.jpg

Attempting to figure out picture sizes. Please bear with me.


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #117, 01-07-2019 04:50 PM
      Following this post with great interest. The 3.6L with the F40 is the perfect powertrain combo for the stick trans fans. I hope to do the 3.6L 6T70/75 swap one day and I'm researching how to make it work. Most of these swaps that I've come across use the Bosch e9 PCM with the Camaro code or use an aftermarket unit. If it can be done with the OEM PCM then thats a plus.



Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #118, 01-07-2019 09:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

Following this post with great interest. The 3.6L with the F40 is the perfect powertrain combo for the stick trans fans. I hope to do the 3.6L 6T70/75 swap one day and I'm researching how to make it work. Most of these swaps that I've come across use the Bosch e9 PCM with the Camaro code or use an aftermarket unit. If it can be done with the OEM PCM then thats a plus.



I could be wrong but I thought that the 2.8HF was avaliable with the 6 speed manual. Just use that PCM.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #119, 01-07-2019 09:19 PM
      I am doing the harness now. You may want to chat with Ryan at GM tuners. I just got my ECM back from him and am looking forward to getting far enough along to turn the key.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #120, 01-07-2019 11:06 PM
      Rickady88GT the 2.8 is a much earlier model than the LFX. The LFX requires a different ECM. Besides, the LFX came in Camaros with manual tranny's.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-07-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #121, 01-08-2019 10:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Rickady88GT the 2.8 is a much earlier model than the LFX. The LFX requires a different ECM. Besides, the LFX came in Camaros with manual tranny's.



The 2.8 Saab engine came with manual transmission also.
However, that's a Bosch rather than Delphi ECM and will be different to adapt than the Camaro unit.


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #122, 01-08-2019 12:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


The 2.8 Saab engine came with manual transmission also.
However, that's a Bosch rather than Delphi ECM and will be different to adapt than the Camaro unit.


It gets more complicated as more donor vehicle parts are mixed and matched. Then add on top of that aftermarket or custom parts AND a custom tune. It could be a lot of work getting all the bugs worked out. I am not against mixing and matching, I just think that my skills limit me to keep as many factory assemblies as possible. For example, I want a High Feature V6 with a manual transmission, that means I look for a HF V6 that came from the factory with a manual. That just seems the easiest way to do it, and fewer issues. BUT, I want to convert my automatic transmission to a manual in my Fiero that already has an LS4 that never had a manual option, so I am forced to mix and match to get what I want.
In the end it depends on how much time, money and effort you want to spend but more importantly is the goal you want to achieve. Knowing exactly what you want is just as important because that will guide your research.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-08-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #123, 01-09-2019 12:56 AM
      Rickady88GT, not as bad as you are making it out to be. 2012 Camaro had an LFX with a manual transmission. The clutch is a bolt in from the Saab 9-3 Aero. I am almost done with the wiring changes and have had few problems. Guess I won't know for certain until I get to the point where the key is turned, but I am an optimist.

Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #124, 01-09-2019 01:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Rickady88GT, not as bad as you are making it out to be. 2012 Camaro had an LFX with a manual transmission. The clutch is a bolt in from the Saab 9-3 Aero. I am almost done with the wiring changes and have had few problems. Guess I won't know for certain until I get to the point where the key is turned, but I am an optimist.

Cool. I look forward to seeing video and pictures.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #125, 01-09-2019 01:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


It gets more complicated as more donor vehicle parts are mixed and matched. Then add on top of that aftermarket or custom parts AND a custom tune. It could be a lot of work getting all the bugs worked out. I am not against mixing and matching, I just think that my skills limit me to keep as many factory assemblies as possible. For example, I want a High Feature V6 with a manual transmission, that means I look for a HF V6 that came from the factory with a manual. That just seems the easiest way to do it, and fewer issues. BUT, I want to convert my automatic transmission to a manual in my Fiero that already has an LS4 that never had a manual option, so I am forced to mix and match to get what I want.
In the end it depends on how much time, money and effort you want to spend but more importantly is the goal you want to achieve. Knowing exactly what you want is just as important because that will guide your research.



The 2.8 *IS* a high feature V6.
I've been musing for years that it would be fun to bolt the Saab turbo system up to an LLT... although with a bigger turbo, of course.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #126, 01-09-2019 04:23 PM
      If you want to go turbo, do twin turbos from another high feature. Also, the Saab high feature was port injected. The LLT and later are direct injected.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-09-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #127, 01-09-2019 04:36 PM
      The later twin turbo V6's use integrated exhaust manifolds and the turbos bolt directly to the cylinder heads. Just use the whole pullout engine in that case.

The Saab manifolds should bolt right up to the LLT and the crossover pipe will most likely work too... just needs a bigger turbo. Although I don't know where the HPFP is on an LLT right off and how it would relate to the crossover pipe.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-09-2019).]

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #128, 01-09-2019 05:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
The 2.8 *IS* a high feature V6.
I've been musing for years that it would be fun to bolt the Saab turbo system up to an LLT... although with a bigger turbo, of course.


Do twins Will, that's what I'm planning for the CTS. I'm collecting hardware for the build now and sizing things up with the intent to mount the the turbos up high for gravity oil return instead of the scavenge pump most of the turbo Camaros are using along with low mounted turbos, as well as leaving room for catalytic converters.

The turbos are pretty compact next to one exhaust manifold, GT2860s with .86 turbines and ~330 hp rating. Not expecting to have it done by the end of the year but would at least like to have it completed on the engine stand. The aftermarket supercharged camaros are achieving 400+ hp at the wheels, the turbocharged versions are doing even more except with a lot more torque and using less boost pressure, best dyno sheet I've seen was 500 hp and 475 ft-lbs at 11 psi. I'm not aiming that high but, would like to reel in the 0-60 times from 6 sec to the 4 sec range with the 6 speed auto. It already has 11.3:1 compression so no engine modifications are necessary to increase it.



[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-09-2019).]

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #129, 01-09-2019 09:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


I could be wrong but I thought that the 2.8HF was avaliable with the 6 speed manual. Just use that PCM.


That's the drivetrain that bmwguru installed in his car. He ended up using the AEM(?) PCM. Couldn't get the stocker to do what he wanted.


fieroguru MSG #130, 01-09-2019 11:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
That's the drivetrain that bmwguru installed in his car. He ended up using the AEM(?) PCM. Couldn't get the stocker to do what he wanted.


Sorry in advance Steve... this just reminded me of a phrase that is a applicable to that comment. "just another Saab story"

On a more serious note, that was 6 years ago and there are now more mainstream high feature applications and with that comes more tuning support - especially from the Camaro platform.



Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #131, 01-11-2019 09:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


That's the drivetrain that bmwguru installed in his car. He ended up using the AEM(?) PCM. Couldn't get the stocker to do what he wanted.


I can think of some good reasons to use the newer engines over the older ones, but I understand and agree with mixing the drive train like a fine recipe but it will take a little more work and research, and in the end may need significant troubleshooting to eliminate bugs.


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #132, 01-11-2019 09:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Sorry in advance Steve... this just reminded me of a phrase that is a applicable to that comment. "just another Saab story"

On a more serious note, that was 6 years ago and there are now more mainstream high feature applications and with that comes more tuning support - especially from the Camaro platform.




At one point, I was considering an LFX swap, with an "adapted" 5 speed (F23 or HTOB Getrag) similar to what Mender is doing, using a FWD LFX and a PCM/tune from a manual trans Camaro.
But, again, it's down to my inability to fabricate.

Probably going to do the HTOB Getrag, bolted to a 3900. That should be nearly a bolt-in, as far as it goes.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #133, 01-12-2019 12:20 AM
      Raydar, you don't weld?

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-12-2019).]

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #134, 01-12-2019 08:20 AM
      Nope.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #135, 01-12-2019 08:53 PM
      Welding is easy. The hard part is shelling out a thousand or so for a machine that makes welding easy.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #136, 01-12-2019 10:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Welding is easy. The hard part is shelling out a thousand or so for a machine that makes welding easy.


Even that's easy, considering the alternative is shelling out $200 for a machine that makes welding hard


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #137, 01-13-2019 02:24 AM
      I am definitely not a welder, but I have managed to do all of my fabrication so far with relatively cheap equipment from Harbor freight. Heck, I even stick welded the exhaust. The point is if I can do it, anyone can.

fieroguru MSG #138, 01-13-2019 10:14 AM
      I learned how to weld on a 110V Craftsman flux core welder. Like everything, it took a lot of practice to get halfway good. I eventually upgraded to a 220V Lincoln ProMig 175 for about $500 (new on sale) and switched to using shielding gas vs. flux core and it made a world of difference. I would never go back to a 110V welder or using flux core unless I was doing something that required it... it just makes welding harder. The more you weld, the better you get, and a better welder really improves your results and flexibility.

By enhancing your skills and equipment (mechanical, fabrication, electrical, and ECM tuning), you significantly increase the types of swaps you can accomplish.


mender MSG #139, 01-14-2019 01:05 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I learned how to weld on a 110V Craftsman flux core welder. Like everything, it took a lot of practice to get halfway good. I eventually upgraded to a 220V Lincoln ProMig 175 for about $500 (new on sale) and switched to using shielding gas vs. flux core and it made a world of difference. I would never go back to a 110V welder or using flux core unless I was doing something that required it... it just makes welding harder. The more you weld, the better you get, and a better welder really improves your results and flexibility.

By enhancing your skills and equipment (mechanical, fabrication, electrical, and ECM tuning), you significantly increase the types of swaps you can accomplish.

Using a flux core 110 volt welder is like using a screwdriver as a chisel: it works but the proper tool works so much better.



Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #140, 01-21-2019 07:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mender:

Using a flux core 110 volt welder is like using a screwdriver as a chisel: it works but the proper tool works so much better.


My experience has shown that flux core is good for the rough work of making brackets, mounts etc. Flux welds leave a lot of splatter and they are difficult to master. .If you want to do clean pretty welds as on a custom exhaust the gas mig is the ticket. Hobart makes some pretty good mig welders. Tig is also great but those welders tend to cost more.



thesameguy (justin@slashpub.net) MSG #141, 01-22-2019 10:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

I am definitely not a welder, but I have managed to do all of my fabrication so far with relatively cheap equipment from Harbor freight. Heck, I even stick welded the exhaust. The point is if I can do it, anyone can.


I have been watching this thread and you give me hope! I've been meaning to learn to weld for YEARS. Last year I saved up some cash and bought (what I hope is a nice) welder thinking it would force me to get going. I'm still chickening out, for no good reason. Now I have a welder sitting in a box in the garage taunting me all the time!


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #142, 01-22-2019 05:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


I have been watching this thread and you give me hope! I've been meaning to learn to weld for YEARS. Last year I saved up some cash and bought (what I hope is a nice) welder thinking it would force me to get going. I'm still chickening out, for no good reason. Now I have a welder sitting in a box in the garage taunting me all the time!


I am a retired telephone tech. I've piddled with welding from time to time but not anything serious. I use a Harbor freight stick welder that has adjustable amperage. Today I continued welding on exhaust pipes. Welding thin stuff is more challenging than the 3/16" plate I used for motor mounts, but I just practice on scrap til I get the hang of it. I'm sure there are better ways to learn, but this seems to be working for me.


thesameguy (justin@slashpub.net) MSG #143, 01-22-2019 05:56 PM
      Well, you're living me dream and I'm enjoying watching you do it!

When it comes to things I "want" to do, typically I've to reach a point where I *must* do something to give me the proper kick in the rear.

This conversation does remind me that one thing I need to do is have someone better at electricity than I am look at my 220... right now it's hardwired to a big air compressor. I need a smart/safe/convenient way of switching power over to a plug for the welder.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #144, 01-23-2019 12:12 AM
      thesameguy
It isn't difficult to install a plug that your compressor can plug into. Then just unplug the compressor and plug in the welder. Just make sure to switch off the breaker for thatcircuit before you start and make sure you use a plug and receptical of the proper amperage to match the breaker and wire guage.


MarkS (mshucks2@earthlink.net) MSG #145, 01-23-2019 03:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
I have been watching this thread and you give me hope! I've been meaning to learn to weld for YEARS. Last year I saved up some cash and bought (what I hope is a nice) welder thinking it would force me to get going. I'm still chickening out, for no good reason. Now I have a welder sitting in a box in the garage taunting me all the time!


I have a wire MIG, brand new, under a cover on one of my benches (taunting me too). I messed around with it a little but its one thing that I didn't feel at ease with at all. There is now an adult continuing ed program nearby for welding. I plan to attended in the near future, it opens up a lot more options on these cars.

BR's,

Mark



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #146, 01-24-2019 01:06 AM
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IIK-M5ryHYY

I had to post this review of a cheap stick welder.