Set timning have glowing manifolds
Topic started by: Johan, Date: 06-03-2016 07:47 AM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/138111.html


Johan MSG #1, 06-03-2016 07:47 AM
      Have an 87 coupe with v6, had an iron duke before. Now I’m trying to set timing, if I short a and b and set timing 10 degrees, it goes to 20 degrees when I remove the paperclip. The idle is 1500 with warm engine. Why does the ecm put another 10 degrees on the timing? If I align distributor so the rotor point at first cable and mark at 10 degrees, I have to crank 5 or 6 seconds before its starts, the engine struggle in the begin, but after a few seconds its runs ok. If I turn off engine and try to start, it fires up immediately. I can drive the car but it’s have no power. Have sprayed with start fluid in the search of vacuum leaks, but haven’t found any.

I’m pretty sure im at the right stroke, if I put a finger at the plug hole a feel a lot of are when rotor pointing at first cable.

MAT, ETS and engine gauge temp sensor are all showing around 3500 ohms. If I unplug MAP, the engine dies immediately, green cable on MAP have 2,2v when engine is running. If I put a finger over IAC hole engine dies immediately. No change if I unplug O2-sensor. No smoke coming from exhaust but I think it smells like burned oil/fuel. No codes

I also have glowing manifolds on both sides, may be a little more on the one closest to the firewall. I have changed the fuelpump during the swap, but the fuelfilter is maybe five years old, haven't been driving so much during these years. Fuel pressure is 2,5 bar = 36psi with engine running. I'm not sure valve lash it correct, could wrong valve lash create my problem?

Regards
Johan


IanT720 (iant720@gmail.com) MSG #2, 06-03-2016 09:02 AM
      That is a high idle. Should be around 700 for pretty much every car. Also you might be a tooth out. Or even 180° off. My car was actually 180° out. It frankly ran pretty good though actually so I never messed with it.

jaskispyder MSG #3, 06-03-2016 09:07 AM
      Yeah, I am guessing the distributor is one tooth off.... sounds about what happened to me when mine was that way.

phonedawgz (gofast@reddevilriver.com) MSG #4, 06-03-2016 12:31 PM
      The timing needs to be set at 10° before top dead center, with the paperclip in. Bolt it down there. Yes the ecm adds additional advance with the paperclip out, it is supposed to.

Glowing headers and a lack of power are signs you have the timing set too retarded, which is what it is if you set it 10 btdc with the clip out.


tuggajb (tuggajb@aol.com) MSG #5, 06-03-2016 01:48 PM
      Damper has probley sliped on lower pulley
When you set timing will be retarded
Turn moter till you feel air coming outnumber one plug hole put small wire in plug hole and turn moter (by hand) till you feel piston start back dowm stop and turn back a smig look and see if mark on pulley is in the right place


mmeyer86gt/gtp (deepbluez98@yahoo.com) MSG #6, 06-04-2016 09:18 AM
      egr tube has a hole in it common problem.

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #7, 06-04-2016 09:55 AM
      I set my timing by ear. Advance the distributor a degree or two, each time you try it. When it starts to ping, under a heavy load, retard the distributor slightly, until it doesn't ping.

I set my 4.9's timing this way.
It appears the ring had slipped, since I had an "additional" ten degrees of advance, from where the timing light said was "correct".


buddycraigg (buddycraigg@yahoo.com) MSG #8, 06-05-2016 12:32 AM
      my vote is the EGR tube has a leak, or the HMB has slipped.

Johan MSG #9, 06-06-2016 05:43 PM
      Thanks for all of your replies.

Finally got some time for the Fiero. Moved the rotor/dist backwards that was no good, engine not even starts. Then moved it forward from start position, but no change, glowing manifolds and high idle. Have a new egr-tube from egr to intakemanifold, tried to spray start-gas, but no idle change.

Will try tomorrow to see that i'm not 180 degress off, do the finger in sprakplug hole thing.

/Johan


Johan MSG #10, 06-08-2016 05:40 PM
      Im at the right stroke no doubt. Need you guys to explain something to me. When i feel the pistion is near the tdc i set mark on harmonic balancer at 10 degress, then i place rotor facing the black vaccum line at upper intake and finally place cap so rotor is a little bit before first cylinder cable the engine wont start. But if i turn cap as picture below it will start and run, maybe a bit high idle, but glowing manifolds. Why does it run when cap is in that position, that seems wrong in my book.



[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 06-08-2016).]

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #11, 06-08-2016 07:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:
Im at the right stroke no doubt. Need you guys to explain something to me. When i feel the pistion is near the tdc i set mark on harmonic balancer at 10 degress, then i place rotor facing the black vaccum line at upper intake and finally place cap so rotor is a little bit before first cylinder cable the engine wont start. But if i turn cap as picture below it will start and run, maybe a bit high idle, but glowing manifolds. Why does it run when cap is in that position, that seems wrong in my book.


When the #1 piston is at top dead center on the compression stroke as you are setting the timing mark, the mark should be at zero degrees. I believe the ignition module applies a base advance of 10 degrees in bypass mode (grounded terminals A to B) at least that is the case in the DIS ignition system. Probably not the same for the distributor system, in which case you'll rotate the distributor counter clockwise to reach a base timing of 10 deg while the motor is running after setting the mark to 0 deg.

Cylinder #1 and 4 are at top dead center at the same time, so if you can't get the engine started after the distributor is installed and you confirm spark, the problem is likely that you have the distributor installed 180 degrees off, on #1 instead of 4, or visa-versa.

If you take cylinder #1 to top dead center and mark that point as 10 degrees on the balancer, you will effectively run the engine about 10 deg retarded as you have set 10 degrees as the top dead center mark on the balancer. When you run the engine in bypass mode following that arrangement, it will register ~10 deg via the timing light when it is physically running at the 0 deg point resulting in 10 degrees retarded and glowing exhaust manifolds.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-08-2016).]

Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #12, 06-08-2016 07:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Why does it run when cap is in that position... ?


Over the years here, I've seen so much confusion relating to setting the static timing.

First of all, the cap position can be anywhere you wish to orient it... as long as the rotor is pointing to the terminal used for #1... and the piston is at the top of the compression stroke for cylinder #1.

The only thing restricting where the distributor can actually be positioned is the wiring harness. Obviously the connection for the ICM can't be pointed away from the coil if you expect to connect the harness etc.

Below is the 2.8 in my Formula. To do the initial static timing, I have the timing mark for cylinders #1 and #4 (the wider mark on a known good harmonic balancer) set to 0° with #1 piston on the compression stroke. If I'm installing the distributor, I drop it down so that when fully seated, the rotor is pointing at the indicated bolt on the upper intake. I then rotate the outer distributor so that the terminal I'm using as #1 (as it could be any which one you want) is lined up with the rotor. The terminal I've selected seems to work best in regards to orienting the distributor towards the coil. The engine is now timed well enough to start, and dynamic timing can now be set with a timing light (or for the old guys like me, by ear). Nothing to it.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-08-2016).]

Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #13, 06-08-2016 07:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Have an 87 coupe with v6...




Question - Where is the cooling tube for the coil/distributor? And why is there a non-factory heat shield installed which is actually blocking air from circulating around the coil? Compare the heat shield you've created and installed, to the heat shield on my engine in the previous post. Yes, my heat shield has been altered somewhat from stock, but it's been done in a manner to simply cut down on heat being radiated towards the coil and ICM by the EGR valve and tube. Air flow around the coil hasn't been restricted.

[EDIT] Ok, I guess you don't have any of the blower assembly in the back as this '87 Fiero originally had a duke. However, I strongly advise you to modify the heat shield you've installed. IMO, you'd be much better off with either a factory heat shield or a custom heat shield that more closely resembles the factory one.

I might also add that although the 88's (such as my Formula) don't have a rear blower for the alternator or coil/distributor, heat in the engine bay has been reduced with the factory's use of extensive wrap/insulation around the exhaust Y-pipe. I don't see any shielding whatsoever around your exhaust Y-pipe. You may find that ICM life will be greatly reduced with your present set-up.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-09-2016).]

Johan MSG #14, 06-18-2016 06:14 PM
      Hi

Haven't been home much lately, wife has been to hospital, but she's finally home and today I got some Fiero-time

 
quote
[EDIT] Ok, I guess you don't have any of the blower assembly in the back as this '87 Fiero originally had a duke. However, I strongly advise you to modify the heat shield you've installed. IMO, you'd be much better off with either a factory heat shield or a custom heat shield that more closely resembles the factory one.
I will look into this, didn't get the shield when i bought the engine and made one i thought would work.

When I set timing, I put balancer at 0 degress and pistion at TDC, drop dist as picture shows below.


To get it started and run, I have to turn cap, so it looks like this:


Tried to move dist 180 degrees, but it won’t start. Did test by myself, so I’m not 100% sure, but I didn't get any intention to start, tried 3 different positions.

Why does it run when rotor passed first cable and heading to second?


Gall757 MSG #15, 06-18-2016 10:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:


Why does it run when rotor passed first cable and heading to second?


Either your harmonic balancer is not right, or the computer is still influencing the timing. Are the A and B terminals connected on the ALDL connector?


armos MSG #16, 06-18-2016 11:30 PM
      Is this a 1227170 ECM with a stock 2.8L chip?

When you first turn the key on but engine is off, the "service engine soon" light should turn on, blink off for less than a second, then turn back on and stay on solid. Does it do this?
The momentary blinking off behavior happens when the ECM checks that the PROM is valid and decides to actually use it. It will only happen if the key has been off for a while (not sure how long is required). It won't blink if it's already been on and you just quickly cycle it.
If your ECM happens to be accessible, then you should see a difference in the behavior if you try this when the chip is removed.
If all this is happening as described, then it means your SES light works, and the ECM is actually using the PROM that's plugged into it (not running in limp home mode).

After you start the engine, the light should then turn off and stay off. This means the ECM isn't setting any trouble codes.
 
quote
No codes
So I guess that's the case.
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:
The idle is 1500 with warm engine. [...] Have sprayed with start fluid in the search of vacuum leaks, but haven’t found any. [...] If I put a finger over IAC hole engine dies immediately.

Normally on an auto the idle well eventually settle to 900rpm. I looked up a manual 1987 .bin and it was 900rpm also, but I don't know if all manual chips have it set the same. In any case, 1500 is certainly abnormal when fully warm, though the stock chips will frequently idle that high during warmup.
Presuming that there were a vacuum leak that pulled it from 900 up to 1500rpm, I don't know if that would represent enough of a leak to keep it from stalling when you block the IAC. I've never had the occasion to find out. But it does suggest the problem may be elsewhere.

I had a problem like this once when my IAC was incorrectly plugged in, it ran at about 1500rpm and at least in that case it eventually set a trouble code. However, if your connectors aren't broken then it should be keyed to only go one way.
I think the TPS and IAC have similar connectors, but I'm not sure if it's possible to cross them up without damaged connectors.

Since this is a complete engine transplant, I'm not sure how much can be assumed about the "correctness" of anything about the harness, vacuum hoses, etc. Was this a complete intact V6 harness, or was there an opportunity for human error in the way any of the plugs were installed?
 
quote
MAT, ETS and engine gauge temp sensor are all showing around 3500 ohms.

This is consistent with just under 70F/20C. Hopefully this was with the car at such a cool temperature. By ETS are you referring to the coolant temperature sensor that speaks to the ECM (the one on the passenger side of the engine)?

 
quote
If I unplug MAP, the engine dies immediately, green cable on MAP have 2,2v when engine is running.

A couple sites about the GM MAP sensors:
http://www.robietherobot.com/Storm/mapsensor.htm
http://www.fastfieros.com/t...nd_how_they_work.htm
2.2v MAP at idle is shown as being 50kPa, which seems high to me, but the second site shows it as barely in range for idle.
I'm at about 2400ft altitude and on the laptop/scanner I get in the mid-40s kPa at 900rpm idle, and it drops to the 30s when revved to 1500rpm with no load. So to get 50kPa at a 1500rpm idle seems a little off. Not sure this explains the car's most pressing issues though.
If the MAP is reporting a higher manifold pressure than it should, it would contribute to the engine running rich. However, if the ECM is going into closed loop and the O2 sensor is working correctly then I think it ought to eventually correct for this, at least in a steady state idle. Under varying conditions it might still be rich though and driveability might still be affected.

 
quote
No change if I unplug O2-sensor. No smoke coming from exhaust but I think it smells like burned oil/fuel. No codes.

I also have glowing manifolds on both sides, may be a little more on the one closest to the firewall. I have changed the fuelpump during the swap, but the fuelfilter is maybe five years old, haven't been driving so much during these years. Fuel pressure is 2,5 bar = 36psi with engine running. I'm not sure valve lash it correct, could wrong valve lash create my problem?

Fuel pressure sounds about right with engine running at low manifold pressure (idle). It should be in the low 40s with key on engine off, and drop to the high 30s at idle. If you open the throttle the fuel pressure should come up in response (it maintains a fixed differential versus manifold pressure).

Clearly something is making the exhaust super hot. Retarded ignition timing does seem like the most likely suspect, which would explain both the hot exhaust and the lack of power that you mentioned.
What I've seen in scanning my car is that the stock chip typically runs a hot idle at 18 degrees BTDC with distributor base timing at 10BTDC. So the amount of additional advance you saw with the paperclip removed sounds correct - but there could be an issue where the base timing isn't actually correct. I'll leave the distributor setup discussion alone and let other people handle that.


no2pencil (jason@akroncdnr.com) MSG #17, 06-18-2016 11:52 PM
      Was in this same situation, 4cyl to 3.4L conversion, ended up with glowing headers. It was due to having the distributor off from when I pulled it to change O-rings. Finding TLD & timing got it corrected.

Johan MSG #18, 06-20-2016 06:44 PM
      My new ECM has serial nr 1227170 and PROM FBA, as describe the SES light flash once and the stays on paper clip removed when turning the key. When paper clip installed I get one flash, then code 12. Tach drops to zero, Temp goes to 100 F and fuel pump runs for 2-3 seconds. The fuel pump turn on for 2-3 sec, every time I turn the key did it 7-8 times, shouldn't it hold pressure after 1 or 2 key turns?

The harness is straight from a V6 engine no cutting done.

ETS are the same as Coolant temp sensor.

I will put dist back to the right stroke and look into MAP and IAC, later this week and see if something is wrong there.



phonedawgz (gofast@reddevilriver.com) MSG #19, 06-20-2016 09:38 PM
      The spark comes when the prongs and points below the rotor get at/just past alignment.

With the paperclip in, the ECM adds no advance. With the paperclip out the ECM adds about 10 deg of advance. You should also be setting the timing with 10 degrees of advance with the paperclip in, resulting in about 20 deg of advance with the paperclip out. NOTE Set the advance 10 degrees before tdc with the paperclip in. The amount the ECM adds varies and won't be exactly 10 more.

The engine will not run 180 degrees out of time.

If you put the engine at TDC on #1, and align the prongs and points under the rotor and then make sure the rotor is pointing at the #1 cylinder you should be close enough to start. If you do this you should be at about 0 deg timing.

If you can, look at your balancer and see if it aligns with this picture looking at the crank keyway and the tdc on the balancer - It should be just like this picture

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-20-2016).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #20, 06-22-2016 03:55 AM
      So much misinformation in this post where to start....

 
quote
Originally posted by IanT720:

That is a high idle. Should be around 700 for pretty much every car. Also you might be a tooth out. Or even 180° off. My car was actually 180° out. It frankly ran pretty good though actually so I never messed with it.


Idle on a V6 should be 900RPM 1000RPM with A/C on

 
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:

Yeah, I am guessing the distributor is one tooth off.... sounds about what happened to me when mine was that way.


You would see that with a timing light.

 
quote
Originally posted by mmeyer86gt/gtp:

egr tube has a hole in it common problem.

 
quote
Originally posted by buddycraigg:

my vote is the EGR tube has a leak, or the HMB has slipped.



Probably right. Common issue.

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


When the #1 piston is at top dead center on the compression stroke as you are setting the timing mark, the mark should be at zero degrees. I believe the ignition module applies a base advance of 10 degrees in bypass mode (grounded terminals A to B) at least that is the case in the DIS ignition system. Probably not the same for the distributor system, in which case you'll rotate the distributor counter clockwise to reach a base timing of 10 deg while the motor is running after setting the mark to 0 deg.



I thought you know tunning, the 10 degs comes from the ECM code has a value of "initial spark advance" which is set for 10 degs, thus why you set it to 10 degs.

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:


First of all, the cap position can be anywhere you wish to orient it... as long as the rotor is pointing to the terminal used for #1... and the piston is at the top of the compression stroke for cylinder #1.




Correct, The stock position is pointing towards the Alternator, that bolt is pretty close.

 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:


The engine will not run 180 degrees out of time.



WRONG! Yes it will run, I even have video of it running 180 out.

 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

If you can, look at your balancer and see if it aligns with this picture looking at the crank keyway and the tdc on the balancer - It should be just like this picture





A good pic to see if the balancer has slipped

Now my input,
Yes your fuel pressure should hold after you turn the key off, if it doesn't either the check valve in the fuel pump is bad or a bad fuel pressure regulator, pull off the MAP vac line and smell for gas, if there is gas you regulator is bad, and leaking which will cause glowing manifolds and high idle.

Next pull off you distributor cap and try to pull up on the distributor shaft, if it moves up and down alot, well even a little like a cm it is bad and will throw off timming, or if the timming is bouncing around under the timming light it is probably the same case.



2.5 MSG #21, 06-22-2016 09:43 AM
      Complete different engine but related topic and interesting, I had a 69 Chevy with a 327 that drove down the road and everything with the dist 180 degrees off. There was about 25% power, but it did run and drive. Each engine can be different tho.

phonedawgz (gofast@reddevilriver.com) MSG #22, 06-22-2016 05:39 PM
      180 deg off at the distributor means the spark plug is firing with the valves open and no compression. Must be some engine.

With the valves open, having the timing 180 deg off at the distributor will cause 'backfiring' through the intake manifold, but it won't run.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-22-2016).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #23, 06-23-2016 01:28 AM
      So 3 people in this very thread said they had a car run 180 out, even the post right above yours, but as always, you know all

I do agree with you that it shouldn't and I wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't seen it for my self.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 06-23-2016).]

2.5 MSG #24, 06-23-2016 09:05 AM
      Maybe there is a difference, because in my case the dist was installed 180 off, and then the wires put on means the wires were all on the wrong posts.

phonedawgz (gofast@reddevilriver.com) MSG #25, 06-23-2016 04:30 PM
      It is not possible for an engine to run if the spark occurs when the valves are open. If your spark is 180 deg off that is when it will happen.

Now if what you are talking about is putting the distributor in so the rotor is off x degrees and putting the spark plug wires on x degrees off, yes then the engine will run and it will run normally. The spark will occur at the correct time for each cylinder. It also is not what I would call having the timing 180 deg off since the spark is occurring when it should. As long as the spark occurs at the right time for each cylinder, the engine will be able to run.

If the spark occurs when the valves are both open (as they are at 180 deg off) the engine can't run. Sorry if people disagree with me but it simply is impossible.

-----




2.5 MSG #26, 06-23-2016 05:00 PM
      This leads me to believe we are comparing apples and oranges... and pears here, anyway, as long as we help diagnose the OP's issue is what matters.

Johan MSG #27, 06-23-2016 06:34 PM
      As I recall the balancer look as the Picture shows, I remember that because my old balancer were totally off, so i though the one I’m using look more correct. When I find TDC without looking at balancer, I end up with big groove at 0 degrees. If I look at bolt pattern and groove on balancer it looks right, so I think the balancer is good. If I set up groove as it should be at 0 degrees and rotor at #1 prong and then crank engine, the groove pass 0 degrees mark when my timing light flash. Then I have to turn distributor so rotor is somewhere between #1 and #2 and then I can set groove at 10 degrees, guess i then have retarded timing?

I have removed the vacuum hose from regulator to MAP, there were no fuel inside and no smell of gas.

Have removed distributor and it was very little play up and down, a few mm at most.

Unfortunately one wire from my tach filter is loose so my tach doesn't work.



phonedawgz (gofast@reddevilriver.com) MSG #28, 06-23-2016 07:29 PM
      From 0 deg or TDC timing, you should be turning the distributor counter-clockwise (anti-clockwise) to advance it to 10 deg before tdc.

That would be toward the #6 on the V6 engine.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-23-2016).]

mountainman MSG #29, 06-24-2016 12:46 AM
      If the v-6 uses a timing chain, could it have jumped one tooth off from the correct position? That might explain the weird 20 degree or so mis-alignment of the rotor.

JM


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #30, 06-24-2016 01:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mountainman:

If the v-6 uses a timing chain, could it have jumped one tooth off from the correct position? That might explain the weird 20 degree or so mis-alignment of the rotor.


I don't understand the continued confusion on this topic. I thought it was sufficiently explained Here that the rotor can be pointing any which way possible when #1 piston is at TDC of its compression stroke... as long as the distributor cap has the #1 spark plug lead plugged into the appropriate terminal (and the rest of the spark plug wires follow in correct sequence).

Maybe we need to switch this around... What am I missing here? What am I failing to see that makes static ignition timing so difficult?

[EDIT] I've been thinking more about mountainman's post... If the chain had jumped a tooth, the ignition timing could still be set properly (in relation to TDC of #1 piston), but of course the valve timing would be retarded. It would be easy to tell if the valve timing was correct or not by looking at when the valves "rock" at TDC of the exhaust stroke. To prevent needing to remove a valve cover to make this observation, I wonder if both an intake and exhaust rocker of one of the rear cylinders can be observed with the oil filler cap removed?

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-24-2016).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #31, 06-24-2016 02:40 AM
      Rereading this thread some more...

Patrick he doesn't have the cooling tubes as is was a duke before, that problem solved.

Being that you moved the cap back and forth and the idle didn't change, I would rule out timing at this pint, set it at ten and move on.

 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:
Glowing headers and a lack of power are signs you have the timing set too retarded, which is what it is if you set it 10 btdc with the clip out.


The REAL reason for glowing manifolds is too lean or too rich (too rich can also be not burning all the fuel) That is where the timing comes in but a side effect not the real reason.
By your post above you asked if it should hold fuel pressure after the key is off, (I can only assume by your post that it does not) yes it should, mabey drop a few psi but only a few, then hold, if it is not, that has to be addressed. It could be the fuel pump check valve or the regulator, while the pump is priming, pinch the fuel feed line(make sure to pinch it off completely) if it holds then it is the pump, if it still drains it is the regulator. This only works if you DO pinch it off completely. most of the time, if it doesn't hold pressure it is the pump.

After you solve the fuel holding pressure, if the idle is still high, then it is probably a vac leak.

BTW just FYI If you disconnect the battery, you have to drive the car over 24mph, then stop, turn the car off and back on again for the IAC to set in the ECM.
Sometimes it takes a couple of times for the idle to settle out.


EDIT to add: A good distributor should only move at most 1 mm up and down.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 06-24-2016).]

Johan MSG #32, 07-01-2016 02:20 AM
      I will look into fuel and fuel pressure. When we checked fuel pressure at a shop, they didn’t have any adapter so he removed that little pin inside the Schrader valve and hooked up the gauge. The pressure was low after fuel pump primed for 3 seconds, don’t recall any numbers, but it was not near the pressure I had when the engine was running. I thought the low numbers had something to do with not using the right adapter and focused on pressure while running. Think I have to do the test again, why could it be low pressure at start up, bad cold start? Clogged fuel filter?
Maybe have to drop tank again and take a closer look at the fuel pump and fuel lines.

 
quote
The REAL reason for glowing manifolds is too lean or too rich (too rich can also be not burning all the fuel) That is where the timing comes in but a side effect not the real reason.

If I have too lean or Rich exhaust shouldn’t i have a code from O2-sensor?


/Johan


Johan MSG #33, 07-14-2016 04:19 PM
      A short update. Hooked up a fuel pressure gauge today after the third prime I got 10 psi and within 10 seconds the pressure were down to zero. Will try to pinch the return line this weekend to rule out regulator, return line = the smaller one?

/Johan


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #34, 07-14-2016 04:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Hooked up a fuel pressure gauge today after the third prime I got 10 psi and within 10 seconds the pressure were down to zero.


Even before it quickly drops (which in itself is not good)... that fuel pressure not even close to what you need.

 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Have an 87 coupe with v6, had an iron duke before. I have changed the fuel pump during the swap...


You swapped out a duke for a 2.8, but did you change over to a fuel pump for a 2.8... or for a duke?

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-14-2016).]

Johan MSG #35, 07-14-2016 05:53 PM
      With such low pressure could it be something else but the fuel pump? Filter? Regulator?

I installed a new pump, Airtex e3240. Correct according to Amazon.com.


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #36, 07-14-2016 06:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

With such low pressure could it be something else but the fuel pump?


I suppose the fuel return line could be pinched shut to rule out the regulator (unless the injectors are all stuck open). Perhaps connect the fuel pressure gauge directly to the fuel supply line.

If this pump is actually capable of putting out the fuel pressure that the specs suggest... then I suspect the "pulsator" or short length of hose in the tank is leaking or has ruptured.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 07-14-2016).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #37, 07-16-2016 12:05 AM
      We have gotten the wrongs pumps sent to us before in the mail. I think you have a wrong pump. I do agree with patrick that you could have a bad pulsator or line between the line between the pump and the metal line. But I think the pump is wrong.

phonedawgz (gofast@reddevilriver.com) MSG #38, 07-16-2016 07:57 AM
      10 PSI? I wouldn't think the engine would even idle much less produce enough power to drive at 10 PSI. Any chance you are doing an incorrect metric to PSI conversion?

fierosound (fierosound2@shaw.ca) MSG #39, 07-16-2016 08:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Have an 87 coupe with v6, had an iron duke before.

Now I’m trying to set timing, if I short a and b and set timing 10 degrees, it goes to 20 degrees when I remove the paperclip.

The idle is 1500 with warm engine.

No codes.

Fuel pressure is 2,5 bar = 36psi with engine running.


I'd be concentrating of finding the reason for the 1500 rpm idle and fix that first.
It sounds like a serious vacuum leak causing the high idle and lean condition.

No codes - would indicate it's likely a mechanical issue (not sensors) like a broken EGR tube.

It sounds like your balancer is OK and timing is being set right.

Fuel pressure with engine running is not bad, but you may need to recheck pump and installation.




phonedawgz (gofast@reddevilriver.com) MSG #40, 07-16-2016 11:09 PM
      Fuel pressure is bad per latest post

 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

07-14-2016 04:19 PM

A short update. Hooked up a fuel pressure gauge today after the third prime I got 10 psi and within 10 seconds the pressure were down to zero. Will try to pinch the return line this weekend to rule out regulator, return line = the smaller one?

/Johan


/Johan

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 07-16-2016).]

Johan MSG #41, 07-18-2016 04:44 PM
      Today I got help and did some fuel pressure tests.
When the fuel pump prime I got 28 psi for three seconds, then it drops and after 10 seconds I have 6-4 psi. When I did the test by myself it took some seconds for me to get to the gauge, therefore the post about 10 psi, sorry for that.
When I crank the pressure drops 4 psi to 24 psi, when the engine starts running it have 28 psi.
I pinch the rubber return line at the wheelhouse as the picture below, but no difference in pressure.




Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #42, 07-18-2016 04:58 PM
     
I suspect you'll be dropping your tank to fix this.


Johan MSG #43, 07-27-2016 05:41 PM
      Droped my tank today and looked at the fuel pump, see pictures below:





Could you see anything wrong?

Haven't changed rubber hose from fuel tank to fuel rail, if it's bad or can’t handle the increased psi would it expand or shrink?

/Johan

[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 07-27-2016).]

Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #44, 07-27-2016 08:04 PM
     
How far is that rubber hose actually pushed onto the pump?

Have a look at what I'm referring to in my images Here.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #45, 07-27-2016 09:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Droped my tank today and looked at the fuel pump, see pictures below:





Could you see anything wrong?

Haven't changed rubber hose from fuel tank to fuel rail, if it's bad or can’t handle the increased psi would it expand or shrink?

/Johan



Change out those plastic quick clamps for metal clamps that can apply appreciable hose clamp pressure. I've never seen plastic hose clamps used for a fuel pump connection. I just recently learned a lesson with a factory pinch style radiator hose clamp on a Nissan that has the little lock open tabs for easier install. It snapped when I pinched it with pliers making me think it had unlocked and clamped down when the tabs had actually over bit and eclipsed only allowing partial clamping pressure. The clamp in a blind spot on the lower hose felt tight but leaked under operating pressure, half a gallon of coolant in 150 miles at about 25% of the pressure a fuel pump will produce.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-27-2016).]

Johan MSG #46, 07-30-2016 04:37 PM
     
 
quote

How far is that rubber hose actually pushed onto the pump?




Length shouldn't be a problem.
Have installed metal clamps now, hopefully I can install tank tomorow.






lordbg0205 (fehlermd@gmail.com) MSG #47, 07-30-2016 09:24 PM
      Change your pump, throw that airtex in the garbage and purchase a better delco/Delphi pump. It will include the correct submersible fuel hose, better clamps. Your current pump has a bad check valve which holds pressure in the line. Usually gives symptoms of long crank times, and weak running because the pump has to reprime every startup, and has to fight the falling fuel while running. Recheck your base timing by using the mark on the harmonic balancer in the picture shown above. I verify by removing the spark plug, inserting a wooden dowel into the hole that is long enough to touch the top of the piston and not fall in. Rotate clockwise and watch to see where TDC is on #1. This verifies the mark on the harmonic, the TDC of #1 (incase the chain has jumped) ans hopefully your distributor rotor is on 1 at the same time.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #48, 07-31-2016 02:39 AM
      Don't use a wood dowel, use a plastic straw.



Johan MSG #49, 08-10-2016 12:31 PM
      Now I have 40 psi after 3 seconds of prime. My problem now is that one of the threads on the distributor are gone so i can't screw the cap on one side, I miss a tach-filter as well.

/Johan


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #50, 08-17-2016 10:29 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Now I have 40 psi after 3 seconds of prime. My problem now is that one of the threads on the distributor are gone so i can't screw the cap on one side, I miss a tach-filter as well.

/Johan


So get a longer screw and use a nut under it, or replace it, and get a tach filter.


Johan MSG #51, 08-28-2016 04:15 PM
      Have ordered a new tach-filter but haven’t received it yet.

I can start the engine now, but its still retarded, the same as before. If I set 10 degrees, the engine runs for ten seconds, after that it automatically add 10 degrees, and revs up. If I have 0 degrees and little less retarded ignition the engine starts and run for 10 seconds and then just dies. If I have rotor lined up vid #1 it won’t start. Looking at plugs after engine has run, they are black of soot. Since I have 40psi in pressure and it’s not dropping I guess I don’t have leaking injectors, in fact I have 30 psi after 30 minutes, could that be correct? Why does it run only retarded? Bad ICM? Bad plugs? No tach-filter?


LorenBateman (co1bateman@yahoo.com) MSG #52, 09-01-2016 11:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Over the years here, I've seen so much confusion relating to setting the static timing.

First of all, the cap position can be anywhere you wish to orient it... as long as the rotor is pointing to the terminal used for #1... and the piston is at the top of the compression stroke for cylinder #1.

The only thing restricting where the distributor can actually be positioned is the wiring harness. Obviously the connection for the ICM can't be pointed away from the coil if you expect to connect the harness etc.

Below is the 2.8 in my Formula. To do the initial static timing, I have the timing mark for cylinders #1 and #4 (the wider mark on a known good harmonic balancer) set to 0° with #1 piston on the compression stroke. If I'm installing the distributor, I drop it down so that when fully seated, the rotor is pointing at the indicated bolt on the upper intake. I then rotate the outer distributor so that the terminal I'm using as #1 (as it could be any which one you want) is lined up with the rotor. The terminal I've selected seems to work best in regards to orienting the distributor towards the coil. The engine is now timed well enough to start, and dynamic timing can now be set with a timing light (or for the old guys like me, by ear). Nothing to it.





Humor me and do this !!! if you do this you will be amazed!! its not hard and is a basic timing procedure, works with every motor that uses a distributor



Johan MSG #53, 09-05-2016 03:37 PM
      I have tried this but when I'm about to adjust to 10 degrees before TDC I always end up turning the dist counter clockwise so my timing gets retarded. If I want my engine to run the rotor has to pass 1 prong on dist. If I line up rotor to #1, find tdc by using a screwdriver and set big groove on harmonic at 0, the engine runs really bad and the big groove on harmonic balancer pass 0 degrees when I get the flash from timinggun. I thought that I should turn dist clockwise to set timing before 10 ¤ tdc, but I guess I’m wrong there.

Now I also got the problem that I get chocks whenever I touch the top of the dist to turn it. The engine also dies after 12-13 seconds of running. I’m a little bit tired of this, feels like I’m going backwards on this one.


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #54, 09-05-2016 05:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

I always end up turning the dist counter clockwise so my timing gets retarded.


Turning the distributor counter-clockwise advances the timing!


Johan MSG #55, 09-05-2016 05:54 PM
      When I did a search I found this thread and it says the other way, so I'm confused

/Johan

[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 09-05-2016).]

Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #56, 09-05-2016 05:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

When I did a search I found this thread and it says the other way, so I'm confused


You've somehow stumbled across the one thread on this which is wrong. The rotor turns clockwise.


I don't understand how this wouldn't be apparent to you when you're timing the engine. You're using a timing light, right? Can you not see for yourself which way the timing moves when you turn the distributor?

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 09-05-2016).]

Johan MSG #57, 09-06-2016 06:46 AM
      It was the only relevant thread I found when I searched for counter wise.

Yes I use a timinglight when I set timing
Yes, I turn the dist, counter clockwise so the timing marks on the balncer go from passed 0 degrees to 10 degrees advanced (before tdc) and my distributor ends up like the picture below and I don't understand why it ends up there. The arrow is where I point the rotor.



Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #58, 09-06-2016 02:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

The arrow is where I point the rotor.


Well, it's apparent then that you're not following the way I suggested Here how to time your engine.


Johan MSG #59, 09-18-2016 05:07 PM
      Last post about timing, will leaved to a shop during winter. But i just want to clarify how i do it, so it’s no misunderstanding about my explanation. Sorry about bad picture quality.

With negative cable unhooked, I position big groove at 0, feel the piston at TDC with a screwdriver and drop dist, shaft as picture below. Where the rotor points don’t matter, I chose this position and put a white mark at upper intake.


Step 2
Put cap on as picture and starts engine. Place paperclip to short A and B. At this position the engine runs rough and it dies after 5 seconds of running, I get a flash when engine passed 0. So i turn cap counter clockwise to advance timing.


Step 3
When I turned the cap so it is like picture below the advance is 10 degrees. Now the engine runs for 5 seconds, then suddenly the advance is 20 degrees and i have 2500rpm on the tach.


Thanks for your time and answers, hope the shop can fix this.

Regards Johan


Johan MSG #60, 07-14-2017 09:18 AM
      Got my car back from shop with dist in right position, no more glowing manifold and got some Power. Unfortunately they couldn't fix my idle, so I need some help.

Engine fires up, start idle around 1600-1800, sometimes its hunting down to under 1000, revs up to 2000. But after a minute the problems start it’s suddenly revs up to 3000 and stay there, until I turn it off. If I change from P to R or D idle drops perfectly down to 1100. I can drive the car and last time I drove it, the idle was okay when the engine was hot.
CTS/ÉTC have 4000 ohm
MAT have 3580 ohm
MAP return 4,95 Engine off and 1,17 at idle.
EGR Tube is new and I have sprayed it with start gas with no increase in rpm.

Have center console out and easy access to ECM, is it possible to measure resistance and volt at the cables at the ecm or do i need ecm scan tool? I’m curious to see if the sudden increase to 3000rpm is in relation to sensor information.


T4Turtle (cylinderpressure@yahoo.com) MSG #61, 07-14-2017 11:28 AM
      You can back probe the signal wires at the sensor or computer for voltage readings. can you measure the vacuum at the intake? Possible an intake leak causing un-metered air to enter in. Best way to check is with flammable brake cleaner along all intake gaskets, still may not find it so a vacuum reading may be needed.

Johan MSG #62, 07-15-2017 06:33 PM
      Unfortunately I can't measure vacuum don't have any tools for that, but will try brake cleaner around intake.
I back probe some cables at the Ecm
O2 sensor D7, have 0,15 v engine off ignition on, when engine idle around 1700 rpm it drops to 0.08, after a minute when idle speed increase to 3000 rpm it's starts to change from 0.23 to 0.69, new value for every second. Don't knew that's normal or a result of wrong fuel mixture or causing wrong fuel mixture.
cts have 2.37v at Ecm, and Mat 3.49, shouldn't they be 5v?
Tps have 0.71 v

Johan


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #63, 07-15-2017 08:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:
...
O2 sensor D7, have 0,15 v engine off ignition on, when engine idle around 1700 rpm it drops to 0.08, after a minute when idle speed increase to 3000 rpm it's starts to change from 0.23 to 0.69, new value for every second. Don't knew that's normal or a result of wrong fuel mixture or causing wrong fuel mixture.
...


It is normal for the O2 sensor reading to jump around. "Nominal" is ~.445 volts, but it should transition rapidly between ~.2 volts and ~.8 volts if everything is working correctly.
(This won't happen until the engine is warm. When it's cold, you will probably see .00 volts, if you're using a volt meter. If you're using a scan tool, it will likely "plug in" a reading of .445 volts, until the O2 sensor warms up and starts working.)

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-15-2017).]

Johan MSG #64, 07-21-2017 06:12 PM
      Thanks, then I know that value from o2-sensor seems right.

Johan


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #65, 07-21-2017 07:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by T4Turtle:

Possible an intake leak causing un-metered air to enter in.


Fieros did not come equipped with MAF sensors.


phonedawgz (gofast@reddevilriver.com) MSG #66, 07-22-2017 03:37 AM
      The IAT controls the idle speed. Sounds like it is stuck, usually by crap building up in the hole the IAT inserts into. Unscrew the IAT and clean out the carbon.

Johan MSG #67, 07-22-2017 03:52 AM
      Thanks, then I know that value from o2-sensor seems right.

Johan


Snipescastle2 (benjamin.l.smith@hotmail.com) MSG #68, 08-09-2017 10:55 AM
      Try placing your hand over the throttle body and see if the RPM's increase, that will confirm a reasonable vacuum leak , perhaps the throttle body gasket is leaking or it could be the EGR valve diaphragm is bad. Your IAC valve might be choked up with carbon/sludge too.
it could be the intake gaskets are leaking underneath the intake. I would imagine the later would also contribute to oil consumption as well. Hope this helps!
Ben Smith



Johan MSG #69, 08-17-2017 04:56 PM
      Thanks Ben for your reply.

Don't know that you mean about 'placing your hand over the throttle body and see if the RPM's increase', but if I place my thumb over the iac valve the engine dies immediately. Have clean IAC valve a twice. Retighten the bolts holding the TB, but no change. Can't say that I have oil consumption, but I have odor from ex that I will look in to. Tomorrow I will leave the car to a shop specialist in American cars; they will start looking at valve lash adjustment, then the bad idle.

Regards
Johan


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #70, 08-17-2017 05:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Tomorrow I will leave the car to a shop specialist in American cars; they will start looking at valve lash adjustment, then the bad idle.


Is the valve train noisy? Hopefully the shop is familiar with this engine. I wrote about my experience adjusting valve lash on the 2.8 Here.


rogergarrison (fastandred@hotmail.com) MSG #71, 08-18-2017 08:54 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

I set my timing by ear. Advance the distributor a degree or two, each time you try it. When it starts to ping, under a heavy load, retard the distributor slightly, until it doesn't ping.

I set my 4.9's timing this way.
It appears the ring had slipped, since I had an "additional" ten degrees of advance, from where the timing light said was "correct".


This is the most reliable way. Specs cover the average cars. Every car has its own little quirks. You can use the 'pinging' as a sign of too much advance, but I also use a hot engine test. If it cranks too slow after setting a min or two hot, retard it slightly till it cranks normally. Both together is best. Id also suspect a leak in the tube too as causing the high idle. Ive had a few cars that would barely run set on spec, so ive learned to not trust that factory specs are the best. Found that with timing, spark plugs and even wheel alignment.



Johan MSG #72, 08-20-2017 04:37 PM
      I replaced the lower intake gasket so i had to remove two push rods, while doing that I felted on the other ones and i thought they were loose so I adjusted them, have read your thread Patrick about it. Since I never have done valve lash adjustment before and that one fiero owner here in Sweden think i should look in to it in order to fix my idle problem, i have decided to let a shop look in to the valve lash.

Here's a video of a start-up of my car. In the end of the video the engine revs up to 2800 rpm, right after I stoped filming it went down to 2400 rpm
https://www.youtube.com/wat...45o&feature=youtu.be

/Johan

[This message has been edited by Johan (edited 08-20-2017).]

Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #73, 08-20-2017 04:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Since I never have done valve lash adjustment before and that one fiero owner here in Sweden think i should look in to it in order to fix my idle problem, i have decided to let a shop look in to the valve lash.


IMO, your idle speed issue has nothing to do with valve lash.

 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

Here's a video of a start-up of my car. In the end of the video the engine revs up to 2800 rpm, right after I stoped filming it went down to 2400 rpm




It seems to me that your idle speed increases on its own just about when the ECU would be going into closed-loop operation.

Has the idle stop screw ever been tampered with on the throttle body?

Without re-reading this whole thread, here's what I think potentially might be going on....

Possibly the ignition timing was done without the ALDL jumper in place. The timing would then be too retarded, and the idle quality/speed would suffer. So the idle stop screw was tampered with to increase the idle speed. When the ECU goes into closed-loop operation, the ignition timing is advanced. This allows the engine to run better, which increases the idle speed. But because the idle stop screw has been tampered with, the IAC valve cannot bring the idle speed down to where the ECU wants it to be.

[EDIT] It also occurred to me that even if the ALDL jumper was in place during the ignition timing... if the outer hub of the harmonic balancer has spun (which is not uncommon with the age of these engines), the ignition timing will also be too far retarded... and what I stated above conceivably could still occur.

Neither of these two scenarios may apply here, but I felt it was worthwhile mentioning... just in case.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-20-2017).]

Johan MSG #74, 08-21-2017 09:16 AM
      I think you're right about closed-loop, Patrick, that's why I want to plug in a scanner to see what sensor values the ECU receives. If i shift into D or R the idle drops immediately to 1200 rpm from 2400rpm don't know why.

I have tampered with the idle screw, I waited as long as possible not to, but in the end it was my last hope. I used this method:

(warm Engine)
I just reposted this in another thread...
To set idle:
-Ground out terminals in ADL connector
-Put key in RUN
-Let sit for a minute to allow the IAC to screw in.
-Unplug IAC, turn off key
-Unground ADL(???I forget, but pretty sure)
-Start car and adjust the Idle screw to get it to run at like 500-600rpm.
-Turn off car and plug IAC back in and you should be good to go

I also unplug the battery before I started the Engine.


I have a jumper in the ALDL when I set timinig, but as you say the harmonic balancer can be off, that's why I will leave it to a shop so they can set it by ear.

/Johan


Patrick (mnofony@yahoo.com) MSG #75, 08-21-2017 02:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

I have tampered with the idle screw, I waited as long as possible not to, but in the end it was my last hope.


...

And all that accomplished was to create other problems. The idle stop screw needs to be returned to the factory setting. Basically, it only needs to be turned in far enough so as to prevent the butterfly from binding when closed.

 
quote
Originally posted by Johan:

If i shift into D or R the idle drops immediately to 1200 rpm from 2400rpm don't know why.


There's no mystery here. The IAC valve can do nothing regarding idle speed because the tampered with idle stop screw is holding the butterfly valve in the throttle body open too far. When the transmission is put into gear, the idle speed slows down simply because there is now a load on the engine.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-25-2017).]