First Time Builder Attempts Totally Custom Modded Build
Topic started by: Corpsmen Ed, Date: 10-11-2012 01:29 AM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/125458.html


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #1, 10-11-2012 01:29 AM
      Hey all, I just wanted to introduce myself and share my build that I am starting.

My name is Ed and this will be my first build....EVER.

I have always wanted to build up a Fiero, ever since I owned an 85 notchy back when I was in the military. I originally considered doing a Lambo kit build - but decided to stick to just sweetening up the Fiero itself.

Mainly, I wanted something I could do with my 13 year old car fanatic son to give him some hands-on car knowledge and experience.

To make things even more interesting, I have little to no experience doing this myself. I have grown up around cars and am good at building things with my hands, but I am not a mechanic or bodyman. So this should be interesting.

BUT I have an empty garage, a dream, lots of tools, an eager helper, and knowledgeable friends and family. If all else fails, I'm only a couple hours away from V8 Archie's (I live in Indiana)!

As soon as I figure out how to post pics on here, I will.


Phirewire (codylkline@gmail.com) MSG #2, 10-11-2012 02:30 AM
      I'm interested. You can post pics by uploading them only to one of many sites (Photobucket, Imgur, ect) and then copying the BBCode the site gives you when you click to share a photo it would look something like [IMG] PHOTOLINK [/IMG ]

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #3, 10-11-2012 08:45 AM
      Okay, here goes....

If all goes as planned, I will be starting with this 1988 Formula...



Things on my to do list...
New Poly all around
Big Brake upgrade
update suspension
Swap in 3800 Series 2 SC
Tranny to be determined (currently has stock manual in need of rebuild)
Customize interior
Big staggered wheels & tires
Custom bodywork & paint (Originally thinking Matte Black with Yellow Accents....drawing below not shown in black to show detail) Although, now I kind of like the two tone paint. lol

Here's my design...



I'll be picking you brains as we go, so wish me luck.


Lou6t4gto (loubreslow@gmail.com) MSG #4, 10-11-2012 09:40 AM
      I Like you design. where you put the 2 "Gilles" in front of the rear wheels, I put 3 Like 68 corvette. make sure you post "Progress pictures".

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #5, 10-11-2012 12:25 PM
      Thanks guys for the interest and info on how to post the pics. I hope to pick up my project car this weekend. I'll post more pics as soon as I do. I have been itching to get started on this for about 3 months now.

sirtimeless MSG #6, 10-11-2012 01:01 PM
      I would love to see this finished.

Kind of makes me want to start some body work on mine



Phirewire (codylkline@gmail.com) MSG #7, 10-11-2012 01:44 PM
      the rear end looks like norms front end with a dodge challangers ass end. not bad I like it.

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #8, 10-11-2012 04:10 PM
      Thanks guys. I fully intend to bring this to completion. We are chomping at the bit to get started. I'm not rich, so I will be doing as much of the work myself as I can, which also means this won't be finished anytime soon. I have been reading everything I can find to help me with my build, and have been watching all the video I can find on stuff like sculpting with liquid foam and fiberglass.

My design is my interpretation of what our beloved Fiero might look like if it had remained into production until today. The whole thing has been made a little curvier, especially around the hips.

I also tried to address some areas of the original that always bothered me. For example:
1. The original nose/front airdam always looked like it was angled up too much. On my design, I put it out and down. More inline with supercars of today (like McLaren, Saleen, etc) and somewhat NASCAR. I also gave it a large triangular mouth intake to help with cooling. Someone mentioned it looked like Norm's Tilt Front. I really like Norm's stuff, but it's awfully expensive. Which is sad because I'm only 2 hours south of Norm. I don't really want my front end to tilt either.
2. The pop up headlights always seemed to be a source of headache, so I recessed them into the front fenders. Design inspired by my dad's new 2012 Corvette.
3. The rear of the original always looked too stubby, especially for the engine being back there. Without adding a frame stretch, I added some to length to the bodywork. When you add in the filled in side window panels, it makes the rearend look fuller.

Some other design features:
1. The triple taillights were inspired by the classic mustangs, with the third light appearing more directional.
2. The side vents were added for style and function. The inside drivers side vent will be for the engine intake, with inside passenger side vent for engine cooling. The outside side vents on both sides will be for brake cooling. The large vents in rear bumper area and rear-facing large decklid scoop for venting heat and air pressure.

Additional items being considered...
Hood vents of some kind to relieve pressure....
Gullwing doors....just because I haven't seen those on a Fiero....which might mean it's not possible

Anyway, thanks for all the positive feedback. I really appreciate it.


IanT720 (iant720@gmail.com) MSG #9, 10-11-2012 04:35 PM
      Whoa! Looks sick, can't wait to see progress!



ALJR (aljr@jgmanzi.com) MSG #10, 10-11-2012 06:23 PM
      Welcome!
Your rendering looks nice, would love to see it finished.
My sugestion would be to tackle one part at a time. Many a projects never get finished because people get overwhelmed...


Phirewire (codylkline@gmail.com) MSG #11, 10-11-2012 10:58 PM
      by gull wing door's I'm assuming like the ones that lift up like birds wings. Those wouldn't be possible with stock doors due to having no connection at top other than glass. normally there mouted to the top of door.

NUC19882M6 (tcunningham_84@live.com) MSG #12, 10-12-2012 01:01 AM
      A thought on those gull-wing doors; obviously doors like on a Delorean (sp?) won't work since the top is glass and can't hinge that much weight on the Fiero's door glass. However, what if someone did a compound hinge that attached at the sides, back, or front of the door and allowed it to pop out, raise, then tilt out? I suppose a picture would be easier to demonstrate what I'm saying, but maybe you can get my drift. Though a scissor type or "Lambo" door would be easier since there was recently a buy going on in the mall for them.

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #13, 10-13-2012 11:48 AM
      I haven't given up on the gullwing idea yet. I think using some type of horizontal hinge on the side of the door with poppers might do it. Maybe that opens out and up while rotating the door upside down before going about the top. Still thinking about it.

I am supposed to pick up my project car this weekend, but the guy with the 88 Formula is doing some last minute price haggling and pissing me off. I can get just a regular 88 Fiero for about $500 (maybe more) cheaper and about 200 miles closer. Is there THAT big a difference between the Formula and SE?

What do you guys think?


hiwil88formula (hiwil88@yahoo.com) MSG #14, 10-13-2012 02:13 PM
      Might want to consider a chop top as well the roof line looks too tall for your rendering. Looks awesome though, I'll be watching!

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #15, 10-15-2012 10:47 AM
      I did consider a choptop originally but decided against it. But we'll see how things go.

Still waiting on an answer to my question about the real differences between a basic 88 Fiero and an 88 Formula and whether it's worth a $650 price difference.

Thanks


Tha Driver MSG #16, 10-15-2012 12:59 PM
      I think the only real difference in the Formula is the V6, springs, & swaybars. Probably all of which you'll be changing anyway in your build.
That's a mighty ambitious project. Count on not hundreds but thousands (well over 1,000) of hours to finish it. Gonna be worth it, though, especially building it with your son.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #17, 10-15-2012 01:55 PM
      Hey THANKS ThaDriver!

Yeah, I figured about 3 years or more. Especially since I am working within a budget (basically meaning I'll buy the stuff when I have the money or when I can do it without my wife finding out LOL).

I have actually looked at your site before and may source you for some parts as I get more into the build, specifically the rear deck scoop.

Anyway, thanks again.
Ed


Tha Driver MSG #18, 10-16-2012 03:33 AM
      On the gullwing doors, I think you could fabricate door frames from 1/2" and/or 3/4" square tubing & use T-Top framework. You'd want to cut off the bottom of the doors & fill in the body there, but that would give you extra bracing, too. Again a lot of time involved...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #19, 10-16-2012 06:42 PM
      Yeah, the Gullwing door thing is Waaaaaaayyyy down on the list. I plan to start with the suspension & brakes, engine & tranny swap, body work, and finish with interior. We'll see how things go.

I decided against the 88 Formula. It wasn't worth the hassle the guy was giving me over price when I can get a regular 88 for $650 cheaper that needs less cosmetic work. Plus, the Formula was about 200 miles away, and the other car is on 15 miles away.


trotterlg (trotter@zipcon.net) MSG #20, 10-16-2012 08:42 PM
      Dosen't anyone else see this ending badly? Larry

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #21, 10-16-2012 11:59 PM
      Geesh Larry, thanks for the vote of confidence. LOL

Which part ending badly, the doors? Or the whole thing?

Come on, give a brother a little encouragement.


trotterlg (trotter@zipcon.net) MSG #22, 10-17-2012 12:17 AM
      I do wish you a lot of luck, but if it your first try an this type of thing I am thinking you will need it. You have bitten off a lot for a first time project. Larry

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #23, 10-17-2012 09:39 AM
      I get that, but I am taking my time and I do have resources.

Examples: My dad has built several cars, both street and strip, and knows about everything there is. Plus, he should have any tool that I don't.
My brother-in-law has his own welder and welds daily.
One of my fellow Firefighters is a bodyman and has volunteered his knowledge and help in exchange for Coronas.
And I'm not completely in the dark. I have grown up around cars my whole life. My parents owned a car parts place when I was growing up, and I spent more summers in a junkyard than most kids did in a pool. Plus, I have owned and worked on a fiero before.

But yes, this is a big undertaking.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #24, 10-29-2012 03:32 PM
      Getting started is taking longer than I would like. The deal for the 88 Formula I was trying to acquire fell through. The guy kept jacking me around on price. I then tried to acquire an 88 base in the next town over, but that turned out to be a scam. As soon as the guy found out I was local and wanted to see the car first, he stopped returning my emails and texts.

Anybody have an 88 then want to sell for less than $1000? lol

I might just go back to my original plan of using an 84-87. Seems like there is more available to chose from, even if it does require more work to upgrade. What are your thoughts?

Also, I have been scoping out headlights to use. It's hard to find ones with the right curve and angle. I don't think I want to use the vette's lights anymore. However, I am sticking with GM, if possible. Which means I am re-designing the taillights. No longer will they pay tribute to the classic mustangs with 3 vertical lenses. Instead, they will pay tribute to the classic Pontiacs with horizontal lenses. Stay tuned for the updated renderings.


revin MSG #25, 10-29-2012 03:58 PM
      Ed,
just get a 84-87 and START. you are wasting your time looking for the diamond in the rough(88)

The frame is the same except for some mounting points. you can always get the rear cradle and the front drive tran another time.
Hell 84-87 go for $100 and up!
I say getany Fiero in your price range and tear it all apart and go from there.
Gull wing doors?!? wow going to be very hard to pull that off. with that said, you may fail so bad that you will need another donor, get another one(84-87) just about anywhere.

So to start, get a low price 4 bannger and go from there. I'm telling ya, the frame with all the body panels off looks alike. fab to your hearts contend!


qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #26, 10-29-2012 04:05 PM
      88's are (in my opinion) the better choice, however, buy the cleanest, rust free car you can find. With all the mod's you plan to make, starting with the best car should be your highest priority. Even if you have to pay a few bucks more for the base car. Skip the GT's because of the extra coin they will cost. Pick up a 86-87 coupe, they are a dime a dozen. Again, get a rust free southern car.

Also, expect to make mistakes, and some will end up costing you, but you will learn. Ask a lot of questions and sometimes the best choice is to use a vendor for the parts you need. Figure on 2-3 times the money and 3-4 times the total time to finish it.

Read every thread you can on Pennocks and look at other forums too, and finally make sure to get some help when your in over your head. We don't want to see this project in the "mall" next year.

Good luck

Rob



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #27, 10-29-2012 05:47 PM
      Thanks guys for the feedback. I am definitely ready to start.

Here's the rendering of the new tail lights.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #28, 11-28-2012 11:36 AM
      I JUST PURCHASED MY CAR!!!

I'm soooooo excited!!!

Let the gamed BEGIN!!!!!


stickboy MSG #29, 11-28-2012 11:41 AM
      Interesting project. Post lot of pictures of your progress

IanT720 (iant720@gmail.com) MSG #30, 11-28-2012 04:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

I JUST PURCHASED MY CAR!!!

I'm soooooo excited!!!

Let the gamed BEGIN!!!!!


Goodluck! Lets see some pics!



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #31, 11-28-2012 06:43 PM
      I will definitely be posting lots of pics.

I pick up the car this Saturday. It's an black 88 notchie, 2.5, 5-speed.

It has 90K miles, but seems solid. No visible rust anywhere. Body and interior is a little rough, but I am modifying all that anyway.

Stay tuned for more pics this saturday!


Custom2M4 (custom2m4@hotmail.com) MSG #32, 11-28-2012 07:11 PM
      I like your aspirations and wish you the best. I will be watching.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #33, 12-01-2012 06:16 PM
      I picked up my fiero today!

First, a little backstory. I have been looking for MONTHS for the right project fiero. Craigslist, eBay, classifieds, etc. I saw this fiero on Craigslist and have been following it while waiting for my bonus check from work. Right about the time I got my check, the ad disappeared from Craigslist. I called anyway, and the guy still had it. When I went to look at it on Wednesday, I couldn't help feeling like I had seen this exact car before. Turns out, it was the same car I had looked at 2 months prior. Only then, it was parked in front of a guys house in THE VERY TOWN I LIVE IN with a For Sale sign on it. I had actually went back to buy it later that weekend and it was gone. Turns out the guy I bought it from had purchased it that same weekend before I could. Here it was again. It was almost like it was destined to be mine.

Unfortunately, my poor original timing cost me an extra $200 in purchase price, and having to transport it 15 miles vs. 6 blocks. Oh well. The guy I eventually purchased it from had bought it for a project car as well, and decided he had enough projects in the works right now. He told me he has own around 20 fieros, and currently has at least 2. Turns out, he is a Pennock Forum member and even has one of his builds documented on here somewhere. He was really cool to deal with too.

And now, the official BEFORE pics:

Here we are loading it on to my brother-in-laws trailer for the trip home.


All loaded and ready to roll. You can see my brother-in-law, Earl the fiero/car guy, and my nephew bullshitting back there.


Home Sweet Home. The Brother-in-law, my youngest son, and my nephew strike a pose.


My daughter, youngest son, and my teenager (and future shop mule) checking out the new fiero.


No visible rust under the rear decklid. Strut towers look practically new.


Minus the leaves, under the hood looks clean and solid. No rust there either.


I had an interior pic, but it didn't turn out. Stupid phone. Anyway, it is rough, as are the body panels, but I am changing all that anyway.

Now, where do I start first?


Tha Driver MSG #34, 12-01-2012 11:09 PM
      Usually it's best to do mechanical, body, interior. So I'd do the engine swap (detailing out the engine compartment of course), brake upgrades, wheels & tires. Get it running & driving ready to go. Then the body to match to the new wheels (keep them covered to keep off the fiberglass & overspray). Then you can do the interior without having to worry about covering it with dust & overspray.
HTH,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #35, 12-02-2012 08:14 PM
      Well, we got off to a quick start today, stripping off the body panels.

Here the boys are hard at work removing the front fenders


We started around 230pm and by about 5pm we had both fenders, both rocker panels, the taillights, the rear facia, and both side vent panels removed.

Here is Max, my teenager, working to remove the bolts on the rear clip


We never finished removing it, as it was getting dark and we were still wrestling to get it to release from the roof line. Can't figure out why or where its still connected.

Anyway, so far, I still haven't found any rest. Most of the metal looks in really good shape. I did notice the rocker and side vent panel on the passenger side seemed like it had been painted black over an original white, but I didn't notice any damage underneath to suggest an accident or repair. The weirder thing is, the hardware attaching the panels on the driver side was all different and not stock, even though the panels appeared to be (the fender had the correct idea tag on it, but mixed hardware holding it on - hex screw, plastic clips, aluminum rivets, and 10mm bolts).

My teenager has me working at break neck pace to keep up with him, so our only delays my be money-related.

Stay tuned.


TheRealShadowX (therealshadowx@gmail.com) MSG #36, 12-02-2012 08:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

We never finished removing it, as it was getting dark and we were still wrestling to get it to release from the roof line. Can't figure out why or where its still connected.



Get the 3 nuts on the inside?

Roof, under the headliner.



ericjon262 MSG #37, 12-02-2012 09:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

My teenager has me working at break neck pace to keep up with him, so our only delays my be money-related.

Stay tuned.


Lol, I know the feeling!


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #38, 12-03-2012 02:29 AM
      Thanks Real Shadow. I figured we were missing something.

TheRealShadowX (therealshadowx@gmail.com) MSG #39, 12-03-2012 02:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Thanks Real Shadow. I figured we were missing something.


Never a problem.

Forgot to mention, thank you for your service! It is truly appreciated.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #40, 12-03-2012 06:45 PM
      Thanks again Shadow. Although, I was in during peacetime and didn't do much but work in a hospital.

After I got home from work today, we got back to work tearing the body panels off the car. Thanks to the tip from Real Shadow, I removed the headliner and the 3 nuts holding the rest of the rear clip on the car



We were working against the fading light, but we also managed to removed the front hood.



Not bad for a little less than an hour.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #41, 12-04-2012 06:52 PM
      After work today, the boys were once again waiting for me, asking if we could work on the Fiero.

I put them to work removing the front facia, while I labeled the different compartments of our makeshift hardware/fastener box.





I finally had to take over removing the facia because 2 of the 4 bolts in the center underneath, that attach it to the rubber thingy that shrouds the radiator and makes like a tunnel to the radiator which I obviously don't know what it's proper name is, were rusted. I managed to get one out with pliers, as they were too rusted for the 7mm socket to bite into. Unfortunately, in my attempt to get the other bolt out, I ended up tearing the rubber thingy. Totally had my arse kicked by those nuts. **hangs head in shame**

With the help of the outside garage light, I did manage to remove the deck lid though.


Probably won't get to work on it tomorrow, as I have a Fire Department meeting. But here is hoping that Thursday is more productive.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #42, 12-05-2012 11:24 PM
      After work, before my Fire Dept meeting, I did manage to remove that waffle-looking thing behind the front facia. I think its some kind of bumper impact cushion. I also removed the headlight assemblies and the headlight motors.

The boys weren't much interested in helping tonight. Well, the 8 year old (Sam) was, but I think the 13 year old (Max) is losing interest already.

The sad part is this was supposed to be a project to teach Max more about cars, but Sam seems more interested. And honestly, he seems a little better at it.

I think Max will come around again once the tear down is finished and we start the build.


ericjon262 MSG #43, 12-06-2012 12:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

After work, before my Fire Dept meeting, I did manage to remove that waffle-looking thing behind the front facia. I think its some kind of bumper impact cushion. I also removed the headlight assemblies and the headlight motors.

The boys weren't much interested in helping tonight. Well, the 8 year old (Sam) was, but I think the 13 year old (Max) is losing interest already.

The sad part is this was supposed to be a project to teach Max more about cars, but Sam seems more interested. And honestly, he seems a little better at it.

I think Max will come around again once the tear down is finished and we start the build.


Kinda the same way my younger brother and I were, some people just dig it, others don't. just make sure they're getting their hands dirty, they'll thank you one day!

What do you plan to do for a powerplant?



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #44, 12-06-2012 08:28 AM
      I am doing my best to get them dirty. Even if it does require every ounce of patience I have.

As for powerplant, originally I was thinking 3800 sc series 2. Seems like it is one of the easier ones, with lots of power and decent fuel mileage. I want to stay V6, because this car will be a daily driver and gas is expensive. I would love to do one of the new 3.6L V6 like in the new caddies and buicks, but seems like people say that is impossible.

Any suggestions?


Yarmouth Fiero (im_gman@hotmail.com) MSG #45, 12-06-2012 12:30 PM
      Hi Ed and gang

Nice to see you taking on this project with the kids. I just started our project this year with my 13 and 15 boys now that they are showing an interest. Hang in there as their interest flucuates. I'm seeing the same thing at times but overall they are hanging in there and learning alot as we go. Your project is looking great and before you know it, a couple years will fly by and you'll have your project finished and on the road.

Here is our thread.........

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/123520.html

Best of luck and we'll all be watching your progress.

Edit: oops.. my boys are 15 and 17. Where did those 2 years go?

[This message has been edited by Yarmouth Fiero (edited 12-06-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #46, 12-06-2012 12:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

I am doing my best to get them dirty. Even if it does require every ounce of patience I have.

As for powerplant, originally I was thinking 3800 sc series 2. Seems like it is one of the easier ones, with lots of power and decent fuel mileage. I want to stay V6, because this car will be a daily driver and gas is expensive. I would love to do one of the new 3.6L V6 like in the new caddies and buicks, but seems like people say that is impossible.

Any suggestions?


just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it's impossible! it would be difficult, as there is not as large of a variety of controllers available that can handle 4 cam VVT, direct injection and DBW throttle. AFAIK, there's only the stock PCM, which also looks for inputs from other modules of the donor car. of coarse, that doesn't mean you can't lock out the VVT use one of the eariler non- DI motors and run a '7730.

after looking at your plans for the car, I'd love to see it get a N* or High Feature engine, and not one of the plain jane 3800sc swaps, but that's just me.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #47, 12-06-2012 04:27 PM
      Yarmouth,

Thanks for th encouragement with the kids and your link. I will definitely check out your build.

ericjon262,

Thanks for the positive feedback. I am still figuring all this stuff out, but I did toy with the v8 idea. Nothing is set in stone yet. Who knows, maybe I'll drop a 426 Hemi in it. LMAO


pprbart@cs.com (pprbart@cs.com) MSG #48, 12-06-2012 04:56 PM
      I have done a lambo build replica. It was 2200 hrs to complete. That was with the body already molded. Your design is going to require an extensive expertise in making molds and then molding fiberglass panels that have to be assembled together. If you dont have the expertise now i suggest you consult with someone who has done one of a kind fab work..
This has been done by some few who have their creations published in kit car mag. I had to make many of the interior panels and made my own rear end from abs sheet plastic guled together to make the mold. Practice makes perfect. Good luck to your project. i dont mean to be skeptical and want to leave without that. Use as much already defined curved objects to make your curved surfaces. abs cannot be heated to mold shapes so it has to be done with no radius surfaces. A simple thing like a curved refuse can surface is a start.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #49, 12-06-2012 06:00 PM
      We are a LONG way from doing any body mods, but I get what you are saying and I appreciate the heads up. I am using the time of tear down and suspension and powertrain build up to learn as much about glassing and molding as I can. Probably be next year before we start that, if not the year after.

I am thinking of creating the original body mods out of a combination of pourable urethane foam, corrogated cardboard, preformed plastic panels (like the original body panels), etc. Then we'll probably pull some splash molds from that.

This is definitely a learning experience. I spent about an hour today reading up on how to form and mold your own taillights. LOL


ericjon262 MSG #50, 12-06-2012 10:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Yarmouth,

Thanks for th encouragement with the kids and your link. I will definitely check out your build.

ericjon262,

Thanks for the positive feedback. I am still figuring all this stuff out, but I did toy with the v8 idea. Nothing is set in stone yet. Who knows, maybe I'll drop a 426 Hemi in it. LMAO


put a modern engine in it, the 426 does make alot of power, but it's a dinosaur. but definitely do something different.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #51, 12-08-2012 05:05 PM
      Between the rain and other commitments, it has been slow going on the fiero. I mentioned before that I removed the headlight assemblies.

SEE


I also made some more hardware/fastener dividers.

Here is some shots of our parts pile getting bigger



Today, I removed the rest of the roof and door skins.




One of the roof bolts stripped and caused me all kinds of grief. Here's a shot of where it was


I also removed the broken windshield.

I had never removed a windshield before, and can honestly say, it sucked. I'm just glad it was already broken, cause if it hadn't been, it would have been by the time I finished.



That's about all I'm going to be able to get done until I move it into the garage after Christmas. The wife currently has the garage full of presents and stuff.

Although Sam (the 9 yr old) had been very excited about helping, even going so far as to ask me yesterday "when can we EDIT the fiero again?", they weren't much help today because the neighbor boys came over to play "with them". Instead, the neighbor boys spent most of their time watching me work and asking questions incessantly.

Turned out, my 4 yr old daughter was quite the help. She was very eager to hand me tools and tell me how I was doing things wrong (just like her mom, lol).


RCR (rcrabine@comcast.net) MSG #52, 12-08-2012 06:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Although Sam (the 9 yr old) had been very excited about helping, even going so far as to ask me yesterday "when can we EDIT the fiero again?", they weren't much help today because the neighbor boys came over to play "with them". Instead, the neighbor boys spent most of their time watching me work and asking questions incessantly.

Turned out, my 4 yr old daughter was quite the help. She was very eager to hand me tools and tell me how I was doing things wrong (just like her mom, lol).


Don't let it get to you. I have two boys and a girl, also. My youngest, the daughter, is more help than the other two combined.

I've got this one bookmarked. Eager to see what you have in store for us. Keep up the good work.

Bob


Tha Driver MSG #53, 12-09-2012 01:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:
Turned out, my 4 yr old daughter was quite the help. She was very eager to hand me tools and tell me how I was doing things wrong (just like her mom, lol).


This made my day. They're so independent at 4 & of course know everything (better take her advice - LOL). Need a photo of your cutest helper...
I use baggies for hardware - bolts don't spill out if you drop them. Label them with a marker for each part you take off.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts



ericjon262 MSG #54, 12-09-2012 07:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Tha Driver:

I use baggies for hardware - bolts don't spill out if you drop them. Label them with a marker for each part you take off.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"




I agree with the above, it will really help later!



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #55, 12-14-2012 09:13 PM
      This weekend, I'm going to try and get the car in the garage so I can start tearing apart the suspension.

First, I gotta get the wife to get her Christmas crafts out of the way.

I also put up the Prothane 84-87 Fiero poly suspension kit, which I bought before I purchased my 88 project car, in the Mall. If you need one, check it out.


Anti-H8 GT MSG #56, 12-14-2012 11:32 PM
      Awesome! This sounds like a pretty awesome project! And to do it with your kids is even more awesome! I know they will thank you for it in the future! I have ALWAYS been a total car NUT, to the point where I drove my family INSANE with my incessant talk about different cars and random facts about them. Unfortunately, nobody in my family is into cars, nor has any interest in working on or even looking at them. So if your 13-year old is as much a car fanatic as I am, he won't lose interest in the long run. I wish somebody would have worked on something like this with me.

Now, the rest of your plans sound awesome! I love the matte black and yellow theme you're thinking of. As for the body, custom will be pretty freakin' sweet, but a TON of work! Nonetheless, I'm definitely eager to follow your progress!!! Seeing how quickly you progressed with the deconstruction of the body panels has me definitely considering removing all of mine and having paintwork done off-car rather than taking the whole car in to get sprayed when I get to that point. Best of luck!!!


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #57, 12-15-2012 12:13 PM
      Anti-H8 GT,

Thanks for your kind words. Teaching the boys about cars was definitely my main purpose in starting this project. My dad was always working on cars and all I ever got to do was hand him tools and "hold the light". And although I learned a lot by watching him all those years, I want more for my boys.

In fact, me and the boys FINALLY got the Fiero moved into the garage this morning



And they are chomping at the bit to get started on the suspension.


Tony Kania MSG #58, 12-15-2012 01:22 PM
      You Sir, are a good Father.

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #59, 12-15-2012 08:55 PM
      Well, the 88 is in the garage, up on jack stands, and barefoot.

Let's see what we have to work with:

Right Rear (passenger side)


Right Front


Left Front (driver side)

Looks like someone replaced the swaybar connection on this side with poly. However, the missed the shock which is completely gone on this side.
Here's another angle, showing the shock completely rusted in half:


And finally, the Left Rear (driver side)


About what I would expect on a 25 year old car.

Anybody notice anything in these pics I missed? Any tips on where to start?


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #60, 12-16-2012 07:07 PM
      Went over to my dad's today to borrow his hub puller and ball joint fork, and he couldn't find them.

To make matters worse, he had a #45, #50, and #60 Torx bit, but NOT the #55 I need to remove the brake calipers. Ugh!

Guess I'll have to buy one. I might be able to borrow one from my Fire Dept brothers. We'll see.

Otherwise, I'm at another stand still. The boys are not happy.


Tha Driver MSG #61, 12-16-2012 08:01 PM
      You don't need the hub puller or the balljoint fork. A solid rap (or few) on the spindle with a big hammer where the balljoint goes through will drop the balljoint. The same big hammer will drive out the axles, just use a 2x4 so you don't mess up the axle threads.
Now get to work.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #62, 12-24-2012 12:15 AM
      Well, I hope everyone is having a wonderful holidays.

It's been slow going with the 88, mainly because I couldn't find anyone with a #55 Torx socket for the brake calipers. I asked EVERYBODY, and finally resigned myself to picking one up on payday.

Then my father-in-law went and purchased a whole set just so he could loan me the #55! What a GREAT guy!

After 4 Christmas parties in the last 24 hours, I was struggling to find time to work on the car. But I spent about an hour in the garage tonight and managed to tear apart the passenger side front suspension.

The Torx bit worked great. Everything came off fairly easy.

Except the top retaining bolt of the shock absorber, it liked to spin. Even with a pipe wrench on the stem and a wrench on the nut, it wouldn't budge.

I finally broke out the Matabo and cut the nut and stem off. Which dropped the knuckle off the upper balljoint. Then I had to "tap" the lower one to get the knuckle off. "Tap" is being nice.

Anyway, its off. Not sure how I'll get the hub off the knuckle without the hub puller, but I'll worry about that later. Still need to get the control arms off and ready for sandblasting and powder coat and new bushings.
On a side note, I am thinking of these for the headlights:


Only mounted lower on the front facia of the new custom frontend like this:

The are for a Cobalt.

But that's still a ways down the road.


ericjon262 MSG #63, 12-24-2012 07:54 PM
      I don't really care for them, I don't like wrap around headlights on Fieros either though...

so far, the best pop up delete I have seen, is RCR's, I can't wait to see them finished!

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/076365-3.html



Phirewire (codylkline@gmail.com) MSG #64, 12-25-2012 01:36 AM
      I agree with wrap around lines comment, they don't fit the fiero, fieros don't really have that wrap around body. Though its good to think about what you want while working it keeps you motivated. Besides your plans could always change mid project.

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #65, 12-26-2012 07:22 PM
      Well, I had a little trouble with this


That bolt on the left, that holds the Upper Control Arm to the front cross member refused to budge. I tried penetrating oil, tried tightening a little before loosening, tried a breaker bar, tried a wrench and hammer. Nothing.

The one on the right came out easily.

Eventually, after the head of the bolt had started to become stripped, I brought out the matabo again. I cut/ground off the head of the bolt. Unfortunately, I also ended up brazing the bolt to the part. DOH!

I figured that out after trying a BFH and pry bar to get it to release, of which I only succeeded in having the pry bar slip and hit myself in the face.

About this time, my dad showed up. He was curious as to why my face was bleeding and decided he better show me how it was done. For the next 2 hours, it was just like old times, with him under the car yelling at me to "Hold the light" and "hand me that wrench".

Finally, he came to the same conclusion that I had already. I would have to get my Brother-in-law over here with his torches.

He also took this opportunity to let me have it for starting a project without the proper tools (even though he assured me that he would have any tool that I would need). Ugh! He was all, "Where's your punch? Where's your chisel? Don't you have a sledge hammer? Where's your smaller breaker bar? Blah,blah,blah"

Gee, thanks a lot dad. LOL


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #66, 12-27-2012 10:47 PM
      Made some major progress on the Fiero the last two nights. I'll get some more fresh pics up soon. I need to get a better camera, cause the phone pics are kind of crummy.

Anyway, the passenger side front suspension is completely torn down. I didn't even need the torches. LOL. I even got both ball-joints out. Still need to tear apart the calipers and remove the rotor from the hub and from the knuckle. I'm probably going to have to break down and buy or rent a hub puller.

Next, the drivers side. It should go much quicker now that I have a better idea what I am doing. LOL Not to much, the shock absorber is already busted on that side.

Stay tuned.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #67, 12-29-2012 11:20 PM
      After a quick trip to Lowes to pick up some new toys, I got down to work on the 88 tonight.

I spent about an hour cleaning off all the rust off the passenger side crossmember and sub-frame around the wheel-well. Started out with the 4 1/2 inch wire wheel on the matabo. Then switched to the wire wheel on the rotary tool for more fine point cleaning. And finely went with the wire brush for more concentrated cleaning. Then I washed the whole area down with soap and water and waited for it to dry while I watched a movie with the kids (Princess Bride - CLASSIC!),

Then I coated the whole area with Industrial Grade Rust-O-Leum Primer.



I'll hit it tomorrow with some Industrial Grade Rust-O-Leum Flat Black Enamel. It will get a couple coats before I am done.

Then I went to work tearing down the Drivers Side.



I still have a little more to do, but MAN does it make a big difference once you know what the heck you are doing. LOL

I got the same amount done tonight in about an hour and a half as it took me 4 evenings on the passenger side.

**Sorry you guys didn't care for my choice of headlights. It may change before I get around to that, but don't be surprised if the car ends up with some form of wrap around lights. It is supposed to be an concept of an updated Fiero if they were still building them today, and almost all the new GM cars have some form of wrap around headlight. Plus, I think that style will look better with the nose I have envisioned. But, like I said, that is still a long way off and could change.**

Happy New Year Everyone!!!


ericjon262 MSG #68, 12-29-2012 11:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:
**Sorry you guys didn't care for my choice of headlights. It may change before I get around to that, but don't be surprised if the car ends up with some form of wrap around lights. It is supposed to be an concept of an updated Fiero if they were still building them today, and almost all the new GM cars have some form of wrap around headlight. Plus, I think that style will look better with the nose I have envisioned. But, like I said, that is still a long way off and could change.**

Happy New Year Everyone!!!


no need to be sorry, it's your car, I was just giving an opinion.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #69, 12-30-2012 08:43 PM
      ericjon,

I appreciate your opinion and the fact that you follow my measly build. Thanks again.


Today, I got 2 coats of Industrial Grade Rust-O-Leum Black on the Passenger side that I primered yesterday. I also finished tearing apart the Drivers side. It was a PAIN IN THE A**, because the bushing bolts on the lower control arm REFUSED to come out. The nuts came off with a little PB Blaster and a breaker bar on the deepwell 18mm, but the long bolts were rusted to the inner sleeve of the bushings. I tried a sledge, pry bar, punch, etc. Not luck. I ended up cutting off both ends of the forward bolt with the matabo. That allowed enough wiggle room to get the back bolt to turn out with a ratchet on the head and a pry bar pressing against the threaded end.

WAY more rust on the drivers side. I spent probably an hour and a half cleaning off all the rust with the various wire wheels and brushes.

Finally got the 13 yr old (Max) to come out to the garage to help, but he only stayed about 5 mins when he realized it was too cold for his shorts and sweatshirt. (Which might explain my current case of bronchitis.) Plus, as he said, "All the fun stuff is done now."

I then washed the drivers side down with soap and water to get it ready to prime tomorrow.


**As a side note, someone following the build sent me a PM asking for various pictures of the roof and stuff. I would be happy to oblige, but I accidentally deleted the PM before I could respond and can't remember who asked for what. I also apologize for not checking my PM's lately. I kind of forgot about that feature and noticed tonight that I had 5. Oops.**


fierogt28 MSG #70, 12-30-2012 09:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

ericjon,

I appreciate your opinion and the fact that you follow my measly build. Thanks again.


Today, I got 2 coats of Industrial Grade Rust-O-Leum Black on the Passenger side that I primered yesterday. I also finished tearing apart the Drivers side. It was a PAIN IN THE A**, because the bushing bolts on the lower control arm REFUSED to come out. The nuts came off with a little PB Blaster and a breaker bar on the deepwell 18mm, but the long bolts were rusted to the inner sleeve of the bushings. I tried a sledge, pry bar, punch, etc. Not luck. I ended up cutting off both ends of the forward bolt with the matabo. That allowed enough wiggle room to get the back bolt to turn out with a ratchet on the head and a pry bar pressing against the threaded end.

WAY more rust on the drivers side. I spent probably an hour and a half cleaning off all the rust with the various wire wheels and brushes.

Finally got the 13 yr old (Max) to come out to the garage to help, but he only stayed about 5 mins when he realized it was too cold for his shorts and sweatshirt. (Which might explain my current case of bronchitis.) Plus, as he said, "All the fun stuff is done now."

I then washed the drivers side down with soap and water to get it ready to prime tomorrow.


**As a side note, someone following the build sent me a PM asking for various pictures of the roof and stuff. I would be happy to oblige, but I accidentally deleted the PM before I could respond and can't remember who asked for what. I also apologize for not checking my PM's lately. I kind of forgot about that feature and noticed tonight that I had 5. Oops.**


Yeah Ed, that was me. I can forward the PM if you want. Thanks for the help.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #71, 12-30-2012 10:27 PM
      fieroGT,

That would be great. Sorry again about deleting it. And thanks.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #72, 12-30-2012 11:45 PM
      Just some pics I forgot to post



And I went ahead and shot some primer on the drivers side.



ericjon262 MSG #73, 12-30-2012 11:52 PM
      Keep up the good work! ever decide on a power plant?



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #74, 12-30-2012 11:58 PM
      Originally planned on a 3800 SC series 2 or 3, but it is so hard to find a decent low mileage one without breaking the bank. I have no desire to completely rebuild an engine. Nor do I have the know-how.

Plus, after reading your build, I might try something different. I would love to do the elusive 3.6 out of one of the newer caddies. Maybe mated to an F40. But that if a HUGE undertaking and expense. Plus, it doesn't look like anyone has successfully completed that swap.


ericjon262 MSG #75, 12-31-2012 12:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Originally planned on a 3800 SC series 2 or 3, but it is so hard to find a decent low mileage one without breaking the bank. I have no desire to completely rebuild an engine. Nor do I have the know-how.

Plus, after reading your build, I might try something different. I would love to do the elusive 3.6 out of one of the newer caddies. Maybe mated to an F40. But that if a HUGE undertaking and expense. Plus, it doesn't look like anyone has successfully completed that swap.



Glad I could be inspiring! My main concern with the the 3.6 is the size, I haven't measured, but I imagine they are a large engine, which could make packaging tougher.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #76, 01-01-2013 02:51 PM
      After a trip to Lowes to get some more paint and other goodies, I put a coat of Black on the drivers side.

Then I worked on burning out the lower control arm bushings. Two came out easy. Two not so easy. I bent one bushing flange, and dinged up another.

I tried burning out the upper control arm bushings but got cold and gave up. Anybody have any tips for easy removal of the upper control arm bushings?


Lou6t4gto (loubreslow@gmail.com) MSG #77, 01-02-2013 01:57 PM
      go to harbor freight & get a "Ball jount / bushing press" they are relatively cheap on sale. (Or, maybe you could rent one) that way it only takes 2 minutes to remove one & replace it. I think I paid $20 for it.

css9450 (css9450@liquid2k.com) MSG #78, 01-02-2013 03:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou6t4gto:

go to harbor freight & get a "Ball jount / bushing press" they are relatively cheap on sale. (Or, maybe you could rent one) that way it only takes 2 minutes to remove one & replace it. I think I paid $20 for it.


Remember though its an '88 and has that shaft through the bushings in the upper control arms. It complicates things.

Best thread on here that I've seen was where the guy made C-shaped spacers to keep from distorting the flanges on the control arm while still allowing them (the spacers) to be removed and installed around the shaft.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #79, 01-02-2013 10:43 PM
      Thanks guys. I got them out. It wasn't pretty, but with a drill, ballpeen hammer, chisel, matabo, and lots of PB Blaster, they came out. Needless to say, I have some straightening, grinding, and threading to do before they go to powder coat.

Balljoint/bushing press would have been easier. Definitely picking one up before the new ones go back in.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #80, 01-04-2013 12:03 AM
      After looking around for a local shop to do the sandblasting and powdercoating of my upper and lower control arms, the nearest I could find wanted several hundred dollars and several weeks lead time. Since I'm on a budget and would rather use that kind of extra cash towards my swap, I am going to just clean and paint them myself.

I was able to straighten the bends and dents out tonight. I also wire wheel and ground off the old coating and what little rust there was. After a little parts cleaner, and some soap and water, they don't look half bad.

When I get around to painting them, I'll post some more pics. I keep forgetting to take my phone out in the garage with me, and then don't want to get it with greesy hands. LOL

Right now, I am fixing to order the new ball joints from Rodney and some new bushings from either Rock or TFS.

Stay tuned.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #81, 01-05-2013 06:26 PM
      Got a lot done on the 88 today. And I remembered my camera!!!

Here's some random shots:
Caliper, knuckles & hubs, and some tools




Control arms drying on makeshift rack



After running to Fastenal this morning only to find out they were closed, I made a trip to Autozone and Napa. I was looking for some new bolts that hold on the lower control arm (that go through the bushings) to replace the one I cut off with the Metabo. No luck.

I also was hoping to find someone to re-thread the ends of the shaft that goes through the upper A arm (that attaches it to the subframe and holds the bushings) so I wouldn't have to replace them. I buggered up the threads pretty bad with the sledge getting them out. Unfortunately, all I got were referrals for various machine shops.

Undeterred, I fixed them myself by grinding down the buggered tips and cutting new starter threads with the rotary tool, then used Dad's Tap & Die set to rethread them. Worked great!
See?



It occurred to me today that I haven't been in any of the pics on this site, so here's my ugly mug.


Here is my latest project. Cleaning and priming the dust shields.
Uncleaned on the left, cleaned on the right

My friend Metabo shows off his handy work

And my choice of covering for this job

[This message has been edited by Corpsmen Ed (edited 01-06-2013).]

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #82, 01-07-2013 01:49 AM
      I cut down my coil springs 1 1/2 coils


Then I primed and painted them


Then I spent what was left of the day (after watching my Colts lose in the playoffs) cleaning rust off what hardware I will be reusing and painting some other pieces.


I also ordered a whole bunch of new parts this weekend. Here's a breakdown of what I got, from where, and how much.
From Rock Auto
Moog K6170 Control Arm Bushings $10.95
Moog K6163 Control Arm Bushings $13.17
shipping $8.82 = Total $32.94

From Amazon
KYB KG4513 Gas-A-Just Shocks $63.20
shipping $0 = Total $63.20

From Rodney Dickman
1 x 1988 Front Paddle Bolts () = $14.98 Quantity Two pair
2 x 1988 Upper Ball Joints () = $46.00
2 x 1988 Outer Tie Rod Ends () = $42.00
1 x Fiero - Zero Lash End Links () = $43.95 model year 88 front
2 x 1988 Lower Ball Joints () = $56.00
shipping $14.50 **But Rodney discounted my order $14.40, so shipping only ended up costing me $.10!!!**
Total = $203.03

And From The Fiero Store
Part #68617 1988 FRONT UPPER SPRING PADS = $14.95
Part #57015 LOWER CONTROL ARM BOLTS & NUTS (2 sets) = $15.90
shipping $6.41
Total = $37.26

Grand total for New Goodies ordered = $336.43


So far, this project has cost me the following
1988 Fiero = $700
Misc (pant, tools, wd40, etc ) $100 (?)
New Parts = $336.43
Total = $1136.43
DON'T TELL MY WIFE!!!


css9450 (css9450@liquid2k.com) MSG #83, 01-07-2013 12:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:





From Rodney Dickman
1 x 1988 Front Paddle Bolts () = $14.98 Quantity Two pair


While you're on Rodney's site, I highly recommend ordering a pair of his Paddle Nuts also. If I recall, the FSM calls for replacement of both nuts and bolts any time the control arm is removed. But even so, why not buy new nuts to go along with the new bolts? The ones Rodney supplies are thread-deformed and are not going to work themselves loose which could happen if you re-use the originals.

You DID get lucky, however, when you removed the old paddles. Mine got all twisted like pretzels! Which if you can imagine was really fun trying to remove...

[This message has been edited by css9450 (edited 01-07-2013).]

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #84, 01-07-2013 05:43 PM
      css9450,

I considered that, but since mine were in really good shape (minus some rust) I decided to clean off the rust, clean the threads, paint, and reuse them.


My first box of goodies came in today!!!


Guess what? I only ordered enough bushings for ONE SIDE!!!

I can't believe none of you caught that.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #85, 01-08-2013 09:15 PM
      More goodies arrived today.

Look!


fierogt28 MSG #86, 01-09-2013 12:00 AM
      Hi Ed, thanks for the help.

BTW, could you tell me where those Moog bushings are made??

It should be indicated on the box. I'm curious to see if they are made in Spain.

Thanks,



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #87, 01-09-2013 11:08 PM
      fierogt28,

The box says "Made in Mexico".


My stuff from The Fiero Store came today!

Coil spring cushions and Bushing bolts.



I have some dilemmas I need the Forums help with.
- First, I removed the 3 bolts holding the hub to the knuckle. Now, how the heck do I get them apart?

Are they pressed in? Or just rust-welded?
I have tried soaking in tons of WD-40, a rubber mallet, brute strength. NADA!
Any tips????

- Second, my calipers seemed in pretty good shape when I first removed them. Upon closer inspection...



What do you recommend?
Do I buy a seal kit and rebuild them? I had a heck of a time getting the 2 tension pins, that hold in the pads, out of one of them. Not sure I could even get them apart.
Do I buy some Reman ones? I have read that they are mostly junk.
Do I bite the bullet and buy the NOS ones?
What are your opinions?

I plan to do the Corvette rotor upgrade. Does anybody know if there are still any forum members still making and selling the offset brackets?

Ed


fierogt28 MSG #88, 01-10-2013 12:12 AM
      Ed, I bought 1 pair of 88 front calipers from CalipersOnline. The price is pretty good for factory fully loaded calipers.

The rears, you'll need to get re-mans for sure. Or rebuild them yourself.

I rather get rebuilt re-mans so there is to guess work or issue from you rebuilding them. Just return you old
rear calipers. *Make sure you keep all the brackets, spring pins and pad retainers. Those aren't available anymore.*

The fiero store calipers are priced at 110$ each. Its way cheaper to get the 88 calipers from CaliperOnline for 125$ / pair.
They sell the same exact thing, all loaded, bolt on ready to go.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #89, 01-10-2013 08:33 AM
      fierogt28,

THANKS! That was the way I was leaning, I just wasn't ready to pull the trigger yet. Thanks again.

Any ideas on the Hub/Knuckle issue?


css9450 (css9450@liquid2k.com) MSG #90, 01-10-2013 10:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Any ideas on the Hub/Knuckle issue?


You could take them to any auto parts store that offers machine shop services; they'll press them out. That's what I did with mine; it was something like $10 for the pair.

Alternatively, there is an old thread on here where the author started the bolts onto the back side of the knuckle, and ahead of them the bolts pushed some spacers that served as a little ram to press on the bearing's flange surface. With three bolts and spacers, he just tightened them a little at a time until they eventually popped the bearing out of the knuckle. He used cutoff lengths of an old pushrod for spacers if I remember right.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #91, 01-10-2013 09:11 PM
      css9450,

Thanks for the tip. I'm going to try and run them by Auto Tech tomorrow. They supposedly have an arrangement with a local machine shop.


Well, no new packages today. Kinda sucked.

[This message has been edited by Corpsmen Ed (edited 01-10-2013).]

RCR (rcrabine@comcast.net) MSG #92, 01-11-2013 06:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:
I have some dilemmas I need the Forums help with.
- First, I removed the 3 bolts holding the hub to the knuckle. Now, how the heck do I get them apart?

Are they pressed in? Or just rust-welded?
I have tried soaking in tons of WD-40, a rubber mallet, brute strength. NADA!
Any tips????
Ed


Mine were rust welded too. I had to beat the @#$ out of them, using a cold chisel to split them. My hubs were bad and needed to be replaced anyway. If yours are good, you may want to leave them (not my best suggestion).

Fieroguru is still selling the kits (13"). I did have a thread on a DIY system using 4'th gen F-body calipers and 13" Cobra rotors.

Bob


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #93, 01-12-2013 01:40 AM
      RCR,

Yeah, I'm kind of scared to keep messing with them. The guy at Auto Tech told me he would press them out for me for $20, if I removed the caps on back. He said he didn't want to be responsible for crushing them in the press. I got the caps off really easily. The bearings looked clean. The grease in one was red and new looking, the other was kind of black and not as packed. What scares me the most is that I can't tell if they are still good or not. Hubs are expensive, but I definitely don't want to tear the front end apart again. They spin somewhat easily by hand, but seem rougher than I would expect they should be and stop spinning on their own as soon as you pull your hand away. I wasn't as gentle as I probably should have been getting the rotors off either, and worry maybe I messed something up. I did notice they spun better with the caps removed, but they are kind of dinged up a bit. I mainly wanted them out so I could clean and paint the knuckles, repack the bearing grease, and replace the wheel studs. Maybe I can do all that without having the hubs pressed out of the knuckles.

Oh, and thanks for the tip on the brake adapters. I'll do some more checking. Fierofan25 also replied to a PM I sent him about the ones he used to make. Thanks to him as well.

[This message has been edited by Corpsmen Ed (edited 01-12-2013).]

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #94, 01-12-2013 08:11 AM
      The person who did the write up on hub removal was, I believe, Formula88.
Edit - Here...
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050410-2-056279.html

I might be inclined to just replace them. This is especially true if you feel roughness when you turn them, although that may be caused by the grease being displaced when you hammered the rotors off. If they smooth out, they may be okay. I'm sure others will chime in.

Having said that...
Rodney Dickman is now selling roller bearing replacements. They should be at least as sturdy, if not more so, than original equipment. Others have purchased the "ebearings" replacements and have not had good luck with them. (You definitely don't want to use the cheap replacements if you are going to drive "spiritedly", or on any kind of road course, or with wder/sticker tires. Rodney all the way.)



Custom2M4 (custom2m4@hotmail.com) MSG #95, 01-12-2013 06:25 PM
      I had to torch my OEM bearings, and get a couple screwdrivers on each side and pound them under it.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #96, 01-12-2013 08:27 PM
      Raydar,

Thanks for the link. I had read that thread a long time ago and forgot about it. I tried it and it totally worked! See below...


Custom2M4,

I may end up resorting to that.


So, after re-reading the link Raydar shared, I spent the day attempting to separate the hubs from the knuckles. My hope was to get them separated so that I might clean and paint the badly rusted knuckles, and then I could at least start re-assembling the front suspension with my new parts while deciding what to do about my hubs (re-grease/reuse or replace).

Since I didn't have an old push-rod lying around that I could cut up, like recommended in the link above, I had to find an alternative. I happened to have an 18" extended 1/2" wood boring drill bit that I bought when I built the kids wood swingset 5 years ago, and haven't used since. I cut the 18" smooth shaft into several pieces about 2" long. (Determining the correct length turned out to be one of the hardest parts about this project, and resulted in several smaller cut pieces).

The write-up in the link above also recommends buying or obtaining several 12 x 1.75 threaded bolts about 1/4" longer or more than the bolts used to hold the hub to the knuckles. It just so happens, the brake caliper bolts fit this requirement perfectly.

(Hub bolt on left, caliper bolt on right).

After sliding the cut pieces of drill bit through the back of the knuckle bolt holes until they rest on the wheel flange (this was the HARDEST part of this project. Getting all 3 to hit solid flange and not have one line up with a hole. Sure seemed like mine had extra holes. lol)


...and following them with the caliper bolts



...the hub separated fairly easy.




MAN, those things were nasty!

But I think they cleaned up nice.


And all primed and painted.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #97, 01-14-2013 10:00 AM
      Waiting on the parts I ordered from Rodney so I can start putting the front end back together. I have everything else I ordered.

Next on my list:
New NOS calipers from Calipersonline.com (to be painted yellow and hand lettered "Fiero")
Big brake kit from fellow Pennock member
Possibly new hubs from Rodney

These may have to wait for my tax check.

I've been reading up on the rear suspension stuff in the meanwhile.
So far, my plan is coil-overs, reman calipers with big brake kit, new bushings.

Any recommendations???


deloreanant MSG #98, 01-15-2013 04:43 PM
      Looking good

fieroguru MSG #99, 01-15-2013 05:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Big brake kit from fellow Pennock member

Any recommendations???


[shameless plug]
If you have 17" or larger wheels, then I think this is a very good brake kit for the 88's...

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/060122.html


[/shameless plug]


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #100, 01-15-2013 05:05 PM
      My stuff from Rodney actually arrived yesterday, but since we missed the mailman, I had to pick them up from the Post Office today.


I could not be more impressed with the quality of the parts. He even did an excellent job packing them for shipment.


It's like Christmas morning all over again!

(zero-lash endlinks, 88 upper & lower ball joints, 88 outer tie rods, 4 paddle bolts for upper A arm)

I'm already planning my next order from Rodney. Its great that we have quality vendors like him.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #101, 01-15-2013 05:07 PM
      deloreant,

Thanks.


Fieroguru,

I actually had your kit in mind for my brakes. Thanks though.


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #102, 01-15-2013 09:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:
...
Fieroguru,

I actually had your kit in mind for my brakes. Thanks though.


I've got one. It's quite nice. Highly recommended.





Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #103, 01-17-2013 08:16 AM
      Thanks for the recommendation, Raydar.


Well, I have all my parts that I've ordered so far. Just waiting on some free time to work on the car. Probably will be Saturday. Pics and updates to follow.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #104, 01-19-2013 02:14 AM
      Made a little trip to Autozone to pick up some stuff for this weekend.



Some Red RTV, Synthetic grease, Anti-seize, Lock Tight, and brake/parts cleaner.



Also rented/borrowed a Torque wrench & Ball Joint/bushing press.

$272 LATER!!! (At least I'll get $214 of that back when I return the torque wrench and press.)

I went ahead and pressed the bushings and ball joints in.



Got a little carried away with the Anti-seize



These SUCKED!!!



These were EASY!



I have a 3 day weekend this weekend. God I love working for the Fed!

My plan is to get the front suspension reassembled before I go back to work on Tuesday. Hopefully, I can get the boys to help me.

Wish us luck!


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #105, 01-19-2013 08:26 PM
      Today I installed the upper ball joints I got from Rodney. Again, awesome quality parts from Rodney.

I also decided to try and salvage the original front wheel hubs. Originally, I was going to bite the bullet and spend the $320 for new ones from Rodney.

But, my dad (who has a lot more car mechanic experience than me) said my old hubs were still good. He spent several minutes spinning and listening to them, and said they still had plenty of life left, as they still freely spun and didn't bind up or make noise, like they would if a bearing was pitted. He recommended I regrease and reuse them.

Most of the stuff I read said this was impossible, because they are sealed bearings and can't be taken apart to repack with grease.

Eventually, I did find a write-up by someone who said YES, you can repack sealed bearings, and told how.

So, I figured it was worth a shot.

First, I used brake/parts cleaner to remove all the 25 year old grease from the bearings.



Then, I used a combination of things to repack the grease into the bearing and the hub until no more would fit.

These included straight-edge razors, my fingers, an air compressor, and finally (and MOST USEFUL) a folded McDonald's straw.



You just keep packing and packing until no more will fit and everything keeps squishing out. (That's What She Said)



And then, after cleaning up all the excess grease, I put a small bead of RTV under the lip of the cap prior to putting it back on.



ericjon262 MSG #106, 01-20-2013 11:36 AM
      looking good! be sure to pot some anti seize on the bearing before you press it back into the knuckle, that'll help with removal later if the go bad.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #107, 01-22-2013 02:02 AM
      Done!!! (kind of)

New Moog bushings and Hardware (from Rodney & TFS) all around





New upper & lower Ball joints (Rodney)






New Zero-lash sway bar end links (Rodney)


New outer Tierods (Rodney)



New KYB Shocks



Also, I cut my bump stops down an inch


Passenger side


And some of the drivers side just so you know its done too



As soon as I get some new wheel studs, I'll reinstall the hubs.


fierofan25 (elyboy04@netzero.com) MSG #108, 01-22-2013 11:55 AM
      Doing a great job. Keep up the good work!!

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #109, 01-22-2013 10:25 PM
      Thanks FieroFan!

Now I just need to find a good deal on some wheel studs. Autozone wanted 2.49 a piece! That's $25 for the front ones!!

Rock auto has them for about $1 a piece, but then charges about $10 shipping.

Any suggestions?


fierofan25 (elyboy04@netzero.com) MSG #110, 01-22-2013 11:51 PM
      try advanced auto
put a124 in the coupon space


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #111, 01-23-2013 12:43 AM
      I just ordered 10 new wheel lug studs from RockAuto for $13. INCLUDING shipping!!

BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #112, 01-23-2013 09:21 AM
      Man, you arent messing around! I hate the clean up stage... nothing worse than getting all that grime off! I bought a steam cleaner recently and cant wait to use it on my '88!

Having the kids help is awesome. My son, Chase (6) is the one that usually helps me. Its very handy having a "tool monkey"! I have very fond memories of helping my dad, in the garage, before he died when I was 13. Miss you dad! Anyway, I hope my kids can someday look back and talk about how much they enjoyed helping me work on cars as well.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #113, 01-23-2013 11:14 PM
      BV Motorsports,

Thanks! Yeah, my boys were my biggest motivation in starting this. Specifically my oldest. While they both love cars, Max (my 13 y/o) has been more consumed by them the closer he gets to driving age. I remember fondly being out in the garage with my dad, being HIS shop monkey, when I was growing up. My dad was always working on cars out there. We had several drag cars and muscle cars while I was growing up. The ones I most remember "helping" dad on were a '65 Plymouth Belvedere (drag car: 426 Max Wedge, 22" wrinkle walls, 4.88 gears, etc), a '73 Corvette Stingray, and a '69 Chevelle 396 SS. Mostly I just handed him tools, held the light, or sat inside and pretended to drive. The only times I usually got to "turn wrenches" were when we went to the junkyard to get parts for the 4-wheel drive business my parents ran.
I wanted my boys to get more hands on experience with this project, in hopes that they would not only learn more about how cars work, but so they would feel comfortable working on their own someday. The title of this build thread is a little far-reaching and cracks me up now when I read it. Our original idea was to build a kit car, because my 13 y/o is in love with Italian sports cars. Partly due to funds and sheer work load, but MAINLY due to the fact that I wanted him to see that American cars could be cool too, we decided to do a custom Fiero.
Although, lately, I'm having trouble getting ANY help. Bunch of lazy bums.


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #114, 01-23-2013 11:35 PM
      I can tell you one of my most proud moments. My oldest son, Bryan, at the time was 6. We were working on my 4.9 87GT, aka "the Blur", and I was rebuilding the suspension. I needed to separate the lower ball joint. I said out loud to Bryan, "What tool do you think I need here"? I swear on a stack of bibles, the kid walks over to my tool box and comes back with a freakin' pickle fork! I kid you not! That kid used to have quite a racket back in the day. I cant tell you how many Fiero (members from the Va Fiero club) & Starion engine bays he cleaned with a bottle of Simple Green and a toothbrush. He hustled everyone of my friends to let him clean thier engine bay. He'd climb in there and go to work. Now, I cant get him to clean anything! LOL

Here Bryan is helping me get the 2.8L turbocharged 88GT fixed up back in 2008


Isnt it funny how much more they want a "father & son project" the closer they get to getting their drivers license? Bryan is hounding me to pick up another Fiero for "us". LOL Yeah, us... RIGHT.......


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #115, 01-24-2013 01:40 AM
      Ha! That's awesome.

I keep asking Max, and he says, "Call me when you get to the fun stuff."


lambo2013 (rstew156@ford.com) MSG #116, 01-24-2013 11:12 AM
      Your doing a great job and lots of great pics. Whenever I'm working in the garage it seems I get everything all back together then think to myself, "Dang I should have taken some pictures" Too late!

Something to keep in mind. With cutting your rubber stops by an inch your tires will travel up into the fender more and may rub, (even more with larger tires) if your body kit is close to the stock inner wheel liner. Just a thought.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #117, 01-24-2013 09:31 PM
      lambo2013,

Holy crap, thanks for the tip! I'll keep an eye on that.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #118, 01-27-2013 01:11 PM
      My new wheel lug studs came from Rock Auto came in.



I figured installing these would be fairly simple.

After applying liberal amounts of Anti-seize to the knuckle....



I spent about 3 hours trying different techniques to get them to seat properly. This turned out to be way harder than I planned.

First, I tried pressing them in with a vise. No luck. Then hammering them in with a sledge. Bad idea.

I even tried using the lug nuts to torque them in. This kind of worked, but only to a point.

They still wouldn't fully seat. I tried putting a rim on and torquing it down, but that didn't help.

Finally, I put an old washer from the LCA bushing bolts on between the wheel flange and the lug nut, then torqued them down.



SHAZAAM!



They seated so easily I almost felt like crying. Like a proud new father looking at his newborn son. Or something.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #119, 01-28-2013 11:11 PM
      I need some opinions on what I should tackle next. I originally planned to move to the rear suspension, but I figure that will be easier when I drop the cradle to do the swap. That will have to wait on warmer weather. I could do brakes, but I don't see that being a very lengthy process.

Speaking of, do I need to re-install the original dust shields if I am doing the 13" brake upgrade? And should I upgrade the MC? I plan to use the NOS front caliper and Reman rears from Calipersonline.

Any thoughts on what comes next?


fieroguru MSG #120, 01-29-2013 08:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Speaking of, do I need to re-install the original dust shields if I am doing the 13" brake upgrade? And should I upgrade the MC? I plan to use the NOS front caliper and Reman rears from Calipersonline.


The dust shields are removed for most brake upgrades on the 88's, including my 13" brake kit. The common rotors used are deeper than the stock 88 rotors, so the new rotors would rub the dust shields if they remained in place.
The master cylinder should only be upgraded to match a caliper piston diameter change. If you are keeping the stock calipers, keep the stock master cylinder.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #121, 01-29-2013 02:56 PM
      FieroGURU,

Thanks! I thought they were left off, but wasn't for sure. Guess I should have asked before I cleaned and painted them. LOL Thanks for clarifying about the MC too.
And I am still planning to use your kit. Just waiting for my Tax Check.


Soooooo....What do I tackle next???? Anyone????


fieroguru MSG #122, 01-29-2013 04:38 PM
      If you haven't replaced it yet, the passenger side rack bushing is probably shot and could use replacing (Rodney sells a brass version).

Wouldn't hurt to pull the blower fan motor and clean out any debris in there from critters.


Tha Driver MSG #123, 01-29-2013 05:47 PM
      Wouldn't hurt to seam seal the entire spaceframe while it's apart...
Not sure I'd buy the calipers yet. It's going to be a while before it's running & they could stick or even be bad/wrong part.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #124, 01-30-2013 08:11 AM
      Tha Driver & FieroGURU,

These are GREAT ideas. Thanks guys!

I'm making a list now.

Anymore ideas???


turboguy327 (turboguy327@aol.com) MSG #125, 01-31-2013 08:05 PM
      Just a heads up. WD40 does no good for getting rusted parts apart. Its a lubricant not a rust penetrate. Pick up some PB blaster or thrust for spraying on rusty stuff.

fierofan25 (elyboy04@netzero.com) MSG #126, 01-31-2013 11:06 PM
      I was at a junk yard one day and I needed some leaf springs. I found the ones I needed but the bolts were very rusted and would not move. So I went back to ask the sale's man(very old man) if he had some pb plaster he said no I have somthing better. He handed me a spray bottle with dish soap and water in it. I said I did not want to wash the car I need to get the bolt out.LOL, He said give it a try you will be amazed. I though with nothing to loose, I would give it a try. I sprayed it a a couple time. waited a few min and to my surpise the bolts came loose. I keeped spraying as I loosened the bolts. I went back and paid for the parts and ask the guy what in the bottle and he said dawn dish soap mixed with 50/50 antifreeze. I still use it , alot cheaper than bp blaster. Thanks Lonnie

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #127, 02-01-2013 12:17 AM
      I've actually been through 2 cans of PB Blaster already. Had a third can that quit working when it was still half full. WTF! Although the guys at Autozone swear by it, I wasn't that impressed. It's expensive and stinks like hell. LOL I switched back to WD-40 mainly due to cost, but haven't needed it much since switching back. Brake & Parts cleaner seems to do a good job on rust too. I haven't tried the dish soap for loosening rusted parts, but I do have a bucket of dishwater in the garage that I clean all the parts with after I wire-wheel the rust off and before priming them. Thanks for the tips though. I might give PB Blaster and the dish soap thing a shot when I tear into the cradle.

Speaking...anymore ideas on what to tackle next.


lambo2013 (rstew156@ford.com) MSG #128, 02-01-2013 08:11 AM
      Try this web site: http://www.por15.com/ They carry lots of great products for older rusty cars and restoration. Most of the products are a bit on the expensive side but they work great.
I have used a few of the products with really good results. Most recently I used the gas tank sealer for my Fiero as the tank had some rust in the fuel when I dropped it to put a new HO pump in.
I would guess your car would be the same as its almost 30 yrs old.. Good prevention before investing a bunch of money into an engine or changing it out.


Fenton MSG #129, 02-01-2013 03:08 PM
      I like the profile of your car sketch, nice and angular. I liked the first set of tale lights better, the thin horizontal ones look too 80's in my opinion.
Maybe try slanting them like this (if you are making them from scratch).



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #130, 02-01-2013 11:15 PM
      Lambo2013,

Thanks for the link. I'll check them out.


Fenton,

Thanks! I appreciate all the opinions I get from forum members. I definitely like your rendering. I do still like the vertical lens, just worried what some members would think of me putting Ford style lens on our beloved Pontiac. Since that part of the build is still a ways off, I'm sure the headlights and taillights will change numerous times before they are installed. Thanks for the feedback.

Speaking of, what are your opinions on headlights?


ericjon262 MSG #131, 02-01-2013 11:36 PM
      you don't plan to stretch the car do you? if not, I would sit down and start thinking long and ard about what you want to power it, and what it will take to get it in there, that way you don't mess up a modded body panel while fitting a engine and trans combo.

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #132, 02-02-2013 10:07 AM
      Just a quick suggestion...
When you reinstall the calipers to the knuckles, use blue Loctite or similar to secure the fasteners.
88s seem to be notorious for having the bolts back out. Some of the results have been expensive near-disasters.
(One former member had the rear rotor and wheel shattered. And he was only going about 20 MPH, creeping in traffic, when it happened. )


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #133, 02-04-2013 09:28 AM
      ericjon,

I don not plan to stretch the frame, that is correct. Body mods will probably be the last thing I attempt. Definitely after the engine swap.


Raydar,

Thanks for the tip. I have the more expensive Red Loctite, which came in a blue bottle (I thought I was buying the blue). Hopefully that will work. A small bottle was $28!


I finally installed the other hub and wheel studs, and am now officially on hold until I decide what to do next. It's still a little cold for the engine swap. I prefer to do that when I can open the garage up. Money might also be an temporary issue. Any ideas on whats next?


ericjon262 MSG #134, 03-12-2013 12:49 PM
      any updates?

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #135, 04-02-2013 03:51 PM
      Nothing new to report. Went from waiting on my tax check, to paying off bills and taking a family vacation. Now that the weather is breaking, I'll try to get out in the garage more. Honestly though, I was a little burnt out after finishing the front end and needed a fiero break. But I'm ready to get back on it.

NoMoreRicers (wilson.kegler@gmail.com) MSG #136, 04-17-2013 04:36 PM
      Bump! Back to work mister!

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #137, 05-01-2013 02:33 PM
      Yea, yea...I hear ya. I have been dying to get back in the garage lately. Between coaching T-ball, work, Fire Dept stuff, and planning my return to the standup stage, I haven't had much free time.

Funds have been tight too.

But I promise I am not giving up on this project and will return to it shortly.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #138, 06-30-2013 12:07 AM
      Me and the boys visited the 30th Anniversary show in Indy today. I took a bunch a pictures and posted them on one of the forum pages for people who didn't get to attend the show. Anyway, now the boys are really pushing me to do a chop-top. It does make the car look longer, but I like the original height.

Also, heard some guys talking about the gearings problems with the F40 tranny, so I might cross that off my list.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #139, 08-06-2013 04:30 PM
      I managed to finally get my garage cleaned out and organized. SOOOooo much more room to work now. I even built a workbench.

As soon as I get so funds, I will be ready to roll on the build again.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #140, 03-21-2014 03:14 PM
      After over a year of no funds, no motivation/desire, and tons of family drama, I am finally getting back to work on my car.

And planning so HUGE changes.

Stay tuned.


RCR (rcrabine@comcast.net) MSG #141, 03-21-2014 05:43 PM
     

Bob


Neils88 (nellerin@dal.ca) MSG #142, 03-21-2014 06:11 PM
      I'm excited to see where you go with this. I love watching custom ideas come to life.

ericjon262 MSG #143, 03-22-2014 01:55 PM
      Sweet!

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #144, 03-24-2014 11:07 AM
      Just sent Ryan at Sinister Performance an email about possibly doing my swap for me. I would love to do it myself, but don't really have the equipment or know-how to make sure it's done correctly. Not to mention the time.

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #145, 04-01-2014 03:03 PM
      Ryan @ Sinister Performance says 2 years before he can get to my swap. I went ahead and had him put me on the waiting list, but might try to go ahead with it myself.

Finished cleaning out the garage so I could get back to work on the car, and have been engine & tranny shopping. Still haven't found my 3800SC. Debating whether to stretch the frame to achieve the look I want, and whether to switch to a longitudinal engine setup if I do.

Plans & ideas, plans & ideas. Picking up a welder this week, to teach myself some welding.

Down the road:
- 3800 SC series 2 or 3
- 4t65hd (most likely)
-Big brake kit (including new break lines, caliper, pads, rotors, master cylinder, etc)
-Coilovers in back
-wheels & tires (staggered - 18" or 19" rears, 17" or 18" fronts)
-custom interior
-Norms frontend - with some mods
-Archies wide-body kit - with some mods (unless I do my own - still learning everything I can about expanding foam & fiberglass)
-cutting out truck for space & due to newly found rust
-custom exhaust exiting centerline of backend
-relocating all cooling to rear of vehicle (sides & back) for proximaty to where it's needed - Had an overheating issue with my last fiero, and GM mechanic told me that was a design flaw with those cars having Rad in front & engine in back, and that has stuck with me ever since. Plus, makes room for small trunk relocation to front area.
-Gullwing doors - I haven't given up on this idea. I know it's next to impossible, but there has got to be a way with minimal cutting. Plus, everybody has lambo doors, and it would really set my car apart from the rest.

My initial design really hasn't changed much otherwise. Maybe color choice has changed from flat black with yellow accents to Jetstream Metallic Blue with silver accents. That is mainly due to the limited availability of the wheels I want in the previous color.

Stay tuned for pics and more progress reports. Comments welcome.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #146, 04-03-2014 03:16 PM
      FOUND my engine!!! It's a 3800 SC Series 2 with 120,000 for $400. Comes with the 4T65E-HD trans. Out of a running & driving 2001 Grand Prix.

If all goes well, I should have it next week, or the week after at the latest.

Here's my question for the forum:

Should I do anything to it? If it's a strong-running leak-free motor, should I mess with it? Should I still tear it apart and replace the gaskets? What upgrades besides the reduced SC pulley are a must?


Lou and Blue (mrlduet@yahoo.com) MSG #147, 04-04-2014 08:12 PM
      Congrats on the motor purchase. Man, I wish I could get a series 2 3800sc for that price! I don't even want the tranny! I would use my 4 speed stock tranny. But everything around me is at least double the price you paid for your motor.
Keep posting progress and pics!



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #148, 04-07-2014 09:43 AM
      Me & the 15 year old have the engine and cradle almost out of our car!!!

Turns out, when he is grounded from TV/Computers for poor grade performance, his willingness to turn a wrench increases exponentially.

Put a deposit on the new 3800SC Series 2 & 4t65e-hd and should be picking it up this weekend. The yard needed time to get it pulled from the 2001 GP that it's currently in, and we needed time to remove our 2.5 Iron Duke & 5-speed Isuzu for the core exchange.

I meant to take some pics for the forum, but was too busy turning wrenches. I'll try to get some tonight as we resume.

That bring me to a question...What all do I need to pull from the core before exchanging it? What all shound I pick up for the new engine/trans while at the yard?


davylong86 MSG #149, 04-07-2014 05:57 PM
      Great work Ed! Im getting ready to do brake up grade and the info and pics will be of great help,thanks. On another note, I have 4 teenage boys who got tagged with the nickname crasher brothers, so yes they will be helping.

Lou6t4gto (loubreslow@gmail.com) MSG #150, 04-07-2014 07:04 PM
      Been watching this thread for awhile, Waiting to see some Pictures of you actually doing the "BODY Alterations" that you made Pictures of ! what you've done so far looks excellent. I want to see HOW you do the bodywork

Reallybig MSG #151, 04-08-2014 12:15 AM
      I'm not a fan of pulling apart a perfectly good running engine. If you chose this engine for lower miles and heard it run, just toss it in the car. I'm sure down the road you'll want to do a few performance upgrades, so if it needs new gaskets then, that would be the time I'd mess around with it. I had a look under the valve covers of my 4.9 seeing as how I needed to swap them anyhow, and all looked well. Checked under the oil pan as the gasket needed replacing and all looked well. It's been running strong ever since tossing it in the back of my fiero. I hope you have the same luck!

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #152, 04-08-2014 02:09 AM
      Finished unhooking everything tonight.





I should mention, I found this forum page EXTREMELY helpful:
Here

Got the wheels chocked


I don't have a hoist, so I'm using the jack & 4x4 method:


Here's the sweet cradle dolly I made:



Everything is unhooked, and ready to go. I would have gotten it pulled tonight, but for a single stubborn front cradle bolt on the passenger side. I tried EVERYTHING, and finally decided to let it soak overnight in a healthy dose of WD-40. I was getting tired also, and figured I'd have more wits & strength about me later this week. (Tomorrow, I'm taking pops to doctor & then fixing a friends plumbing, so no fiero work.)

I did run into a few problems.
Like to never got the coolant lines unhooked from the compressor. Then, my rear cradle bolts were free-spinning, so I had to cut "the flap" in the frame rails to access them. Ended up having to cut the retainers off with the sawzall. Looks like I'll be purchasing some of the Free Floating cradle bolts from Rodney.
Previously said stubborn front cradle bolt.

Also, my E-brake cable had rusted completely through. This car has the weirdest rust issues. Hardly any, but where it does, they are crazy.
The rear cradle bolts were free spinning due to rust, but none on the outside of the frame rail.
Then the E-brake cable. Most of the brake lines look pretty rusted, so I'll be getting all new lines for the entire car.
The bottom of the car and frame is completely rust free, but one of the coolant line supports is so badly rusted it's barely there.
It is a Midwestern car, so rust is expected.

The worst rust spots I've noticed so far are these:
Passenger side trunk bottom


Driver's side inside upper frame rail about 6 inches behind the firewall


davylong86,
Glad I could help. I plan to do a brake upgrade in the near future, so I'll be looking for your thread as well.

Lou6t4gto,
You and me both. LOL I am constantly thinking about the various body mods I want to do, and researching & thinking about how best to accomplish them. But I'm still quite a ways away from that. Body comes last, so stay tuned.

Reallybig,
Thanks for the helpful tip. Since I don't currently have an engine stand, I plan to wait and see what the engine looks like out of the car when I get it here, before I plan to change gaskets. I only planned to do gaskets and reduced SC pulley for engine mods anyway, so we will see.

Thanks everybody.


LornesGT MSG #153, 04-08-2014 11:53 PM
      I don't know how many hours I fought that same bolt. It was rusted to the sleeve, hammered and turned and hammered and turned. It was so frozen in place that turning the bolt was impossible the rubber bushing just returned it to it original position. I cut at the rubber mount to get to the sleeve and spread it with a screw driver and injected over and over PB blaster. When the bolt final spun free of the sleeve I smacked it with a hammer to get as far out as possible then pryed it out and turning it with a socket at the same time. So far with all the parts I have removed mine seems to only have very minor surface rust. Just because of the those bolts I see how some get tired of it all and give up.

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #154, 04-10-2014 09:03 PM
      After fighting that stupid bolts for 3 days, including using breaker bar, punch and sledge, dremel and matabo cutoff wheels, and even trying to drill it out with a carbide bit. I finally resorted to breaking out the torches for the head side, and removed the battery tray with matabo to get sawzall in to cut back side bolt between the cradle and frame.

It's out!



Me and the 15 yr old spent the rest of the evening striping it for the trip to the yard this weekend. Pull the wiring harness, A/C compressor. Is there anything else I need to pull?

The new motor comes with the ALT and starter. Wiring harness and ECM were already sold. Plan to source one. Most likely from Ryan at Sinister Performance.

Last question. Axles. How the hell do I get those tricups out of the trans. Manual says prying with a large screwdriver should work, but it didn't for me.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #155, 04-11-2014 08:39 PM
      Thanks to archive posts by FieroGuru and theOrgre, I managed to get the cups out. Not really sure I'll even need them though.

Motor is all unbolted and ready to exchange at the junk yard tomorrow.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #156, 04-13-2014 07:46 PM
      Picked up my motor Saturday. It looked a lot better than I was expecting.



However, when the kid was loading it onto the trailer with the forklift, he dropped it off the side of the skid it was sitting on from about 3 feet onto the concrete floor.

GRRRRR!!!!!

The only noticeable damage was the dipstick and oil fill cap.



Also a small broken piece on the bottom of the thing the oil fill cap screws onto



I did manage to get most of the wiring harness with the engine. No ECM or coil packs though.

Also, can anybody tell me forsure whether I got the 4T65E or the 4T65E-HD?



[This message has been edited by Corpsmen Ed (edited 04-13-2014).]

fierofan25 (elyboy04@netzero.com) MSG #157, 04-13-2014 10:44 PM
      I have a computer out of a 2000 Monte Carlo you can have.

MstangsBware (stephen_p38@yahoo.com) MSG #158, 04-13-2014 11:35 PM
      Trans is the HD version...Any questions feel free to ask as I have all the answers. Dip stick would have been busted anyways as they r a common failing part.

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #159, 05-01-2014 09:22 PM
      Ran into a bit of an issue while tearing apart the cradle and rear suspension for powdercoating. We found a couple of places on the drivers side if the cradle that had rusted through the metal. After wire wheel and grinding, they didn't appear too big, so we took it to a welding shop before sending it to powder coat. The welding shop said that the metal was too thin in the area around the rust holes, to properly fix. They tried to patch one, but it just melted through and got worse. They suggested I either pick uo a used cradle from a junkyard or have a tubular one made by a fabricator. Geez.

If I go the tubular route, I may go ahead and have the whole back end done that way and include a stretch, since there is also a half-dollar sized rust hole in th e upper frame rail on the same side.

Thoughts?


Lou and Blue (mrlduet@yahoo.com) MSG #160, 05-01-2014 09:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by turboguy327:

Just a heads up. WD40 does no good for getting rusted parts apart. Its a lubricant not a rust penetrate. Pick up some PB blaster or thrust for spraying on rusty stuff.


There's also a great penetrating oil called AeroKroil sold by Kano labs. It has to be ordered from Kanolabs.com or google Kanolabs. You have to enter a business name to order it but just make up a business name. I used "West End Ales" as my buisness name, which was my nanobrewery's name. Orange can, purple liquid, works awesome. They call it "The oil that kreeps".
Great stuff!
Just another option, I never had much luck with PB Blaster myself.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #161, 05-02-2014 02:05 PM
      Just got back from a different welding shop. Much bigger outfit that before. The guy was like, "We can definitely fix that". I asked him about going tubular. He said they could do that too, but it's VERY pricey. He assured me that he could fix the cradle to be just as good as new or even tubular for $100. YAY!

I'll post pics when I pick it up next week.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #162, 05-19-2014 08:34 AM
      I've been making tons of headway on the car. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to post any pics because PIP keeps giving me an error message saying "connection failed".

Got the cradle back from the welding shop. Looks brand new. Guy only charged me $60!

Finally finished cutting out the trunk and inner fender wells, grinding off all the old insulation mounting tabs and rusty areas, and sanding/wire-wheeling every part of the firewall and frame in the engine compartment and rear frame area.

Then I degreased everything. The used the Metal Prep/Etching stuff.

Last night I gave everything a nice good coat of POR-15 (Including my right hand). As soon as I can get PIP to work, I will be posting some pictures of the current state.


RCR (rcrabine@comcast.net) MSG #163, 05-19-2014 11:18 AM
      PIP works fine. Verify that your firewall settings didn't change.



Bob


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #164, 05-21-2014 12:54 AM
     









Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #165, 03-10-2015 10:11 PM
      Hey guys. Just wanted to let everyone know I'm still here and plan to finish the car. Was waiting on time and money, both of which seem to have worked themselves out. Been playing with the design of the car as well. Will post some pics soon. I even did a clay model!!! Stay tuned.


Glad to see Fierorog finally got around to making all the swap mounts for the 3800/4T65HD into an 88. I'll be placing my order soon so I can start mounting the motor.

[This message has been edited by Corpsmen Ed (edited 03-10-2015).]

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #166, 03-23-2015 08:24 PM
      Finally got the garage cleaned out and ready to work again.

Also been playing with the final design of the car again.



Its a rough paint sketch, but it borrows some of my favorite design features from these really cool cars.

The fender curves and hips from this:


The front end is a mix of these:



The sides and exhaust from this:



The tail from this:


I may end up changing this a million more time by the time I'm ready to start the body, but I did make a clay model of it and it looked pretty sweet. Then the wife accidentally squished it. LOL

I never posted pics of the repaired subframe and the rusted out areas of the frame rails that were fixed. I'll try to get those up soon.


RCR (rcrabine@comcast.net) MSG #167, 03-24-2015 06:07 AM
      That looks pretty cool. I'm looking forward to seeing you bring it to life.



Bob


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #168, 03-19-2016 08:08 PM
      Due to going back to school and trying to open my own business, all while working full-time, it's been almost 3 years since I've had the time for money to work on the fiero.

I guess it's time to give up on my dream and sell this thing.

Anybody want to take over my project? I'll let everything I have for the car go for $2500. That includes the 88 car, which has been stripped down - all the rust removed and thoroughly coated, most of the original parts, many new front suspension parts, and the 3800 SC series II with auto trans.

This is a complete package deal. Not interested in parting this thing out for the next couple years, cause that would be too sad, so don'the ask. Individual pieces are not being sold separately. It is all or none.

If you are interested, call or text me at (765)506-2367.


Neils88 (nellerin@dal.ca) MSG #169, 03-19-2016 08:30 PM
      No reason to give up on it. It may seem too much right now, but you've made great progress and you know eventually the bug will hit you again. One day you'll want to get back into a project like this and it would be a shame to start over after getting so far with it. Why not put a cover on it for now and hold on to it until you are ready.... One year....three years...ten years...twenty years... it's all the same. Don't give up on yourself or your dreams....Dreams don't have to happen over night.

Lou and Blue (mrlduet@yahoo.com) MSG #170, 03-20-2016 07:47 PM
      Have your teenager finish the car! Don't sell it! Even if it's just a swap.



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #171, 03-01-2018 09:22 PM
      Finally got the time and money to work on the build. It's back on. Stay tuned!

P.S. Does anyone know who I can get the axles for my swap from? It's a 3800 SC out of a 2001 Grand Prix with the HD auto tranny going into my 1988 that had a 4 cyl w/ 5sp manual. I plan to use Fiero Rog mounts.


Neils88 (nellerin@dal.ca) MSG #172, 03-01-2018 10:07 PM
      Great to hear the build is back on! I figured you wouldn't be able to stay away from it...

olejoedad (welch.joe.714@gmail.com) MSG #173, 03-02-2018 08:04 PM
      You have a PM concerning axles.

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #174, 03-09-2018 10:12 PM
      Thanks for the Axle info. Now I wish I would have saved my old axles. I think I did get the tripots with the new Trans, but thats about it.

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #175, 03-14-2018 09:54 PM
      Finished cleaning out the garage this weekend, so I could actually get to the car. Wife and kids have been piling junk in there for the last 3 years and you could barely even see the car. I also managed to get the motor moved into the garage so I could start tearing it apart. It came out of a running vehicle, but has been sitting in my driveway for almost 3 years, so I figured I would go through it and at least replace the gaskets and seals. I'll try to get some update pics posted real soon. Maybe this weekend.

I was reading back through this old build thread from the beginning, mainly to see what all I had originally planned and where I left off. I can't believe how much has changed since I started this project. The 15 yr old son that was helping me is now almost 19, married, and is serving in the Air Force at Holloman AFB in New Mexico. The 9 year old is now 14 and taller than me. He might be willing to help, but who knows. Nobody in my family expects me to finish this car after not working on it for 3+ years. The wife really just wants it out of the garage. I told her, the only way it is coming out is if I drive it out. LOL I also told her to build me a new garage to work in if she wanted this one freed up badly enough. She is too much of a tightwad to to do that though.

Stay with me folks. I need your imput and added motivation.


2.5 MSG #176, 03-16-2018 07:51 AM
      Heres more motivation, get working on it and get excited about it, even if its only a little at a time

Spadesluck MSG #177, 03-16-2018 02:07 PM
      Glad you are able to get back to it. Many projects like this get lost over time. I am stationed at Cannon AFB New Mexico. Holloman is not "to" far from me, its actually a nice base as well.

[This message has been edited by Spadesluck (edited 05-28-2019).]

RCR (rcrabine@comcast.net) MSG #178, 03-18-2018 05:00 PM
      If you need to see some patience, check out my build. Like you, the only way it's coming out of the garage is being driven. Hasn't happened much over the years.

If you enjoy it, keep working on it. We enjoy helping and watching.

Bob



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #179, 03-21-2018 10:08 PM
      Finally got the motor inside.



Now, I need to start the tear down.

I also got the garage cleaned out and the car uncovered. (Mostly)



Stay tuned!


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #180, 04-02-2018 10:21 PM
      Ordered my coilovers from Fieroguru. Ordered more POR-15 to coat the cradle and rear suspension pieces. Been trying to order my swap motor & trans mounts from Fierorog, but we keep missing connections.

Still need swap axles, as I have no available pieces to build my.
Also need to figure out what all I need to do to this motor before mounting it. It was running when they pulled it from the 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP at the yard. But it did have 120,000 miles and has now been sitting in my driveway outside for almost 3 years. Thinking I should replace most of the gaskets at least. Going to get Fierorog's various alt relocation and tensioner pulley brackets. Also thought about changing SC pulley size. Any thoughts on all this???


olejoedad (welch.joe.714@gmail.com) MSG #181, 04-03-2018 08:56 AM
      Definitely reseal the engine with the exception of the head gaskets.
Start with stock pulley, change later if you want more power down the road, stock pulley will give plenty of power for now.

Edit to add....
Check supercharger coupler and change supercharger snout oil.
Replace the water pump.

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 04-03-2018).]

Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #182, 04-09-2018 07:42 PM
      Lots of things going on over here at the homestead.

First, I got the tranny broke free from the motor



After a quick trip to Lowes to get the bolts I needed, I got it mounted to the engine stand.



And here is the first pile of stuff I managed to pull off it.



Most pics on stand





Got my gasket set in the mail from ZZP



And started tearing off the top end



Everybody says it's a good idea to replace the water pump, but mine looks brand new. In fact, I am surprised how clean this thing is for coming out of a car with 120K. Granted, it was running when it was pulled. But it also has been sitting outside in my driveway for the last 3 years. And I have yet to find a nest or anything nature related. And I can turn this thing over by hand pretty easily. Unfortunately, that has made it difficult getting the crankshaft pulley off the front. Any tips?



Got the supercharger pulled last night



Then, I came home today and found a nice little surprise waiting on my porch.



My coilovers from Fieroguru!



I can't wait to get this things out and play with them. But they were so nicely packed and I am no where near ready for them yet, I will have to resist the temptation.

Tips and feedback appreciated.

Stay tuned.


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #183, 05-27-2019 09:59 PM
      Everything has got to go! See something you like or want, send me a PM. And do it ASAP.

New car requires garage space immediately.

Whatever is left within a month is going to the scrap yard.


La fiera MSG #184, 05-29-2019 09:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg:

Dosen't anyone else see this ending badly? Larry

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

I got to give it to Larry, he was right from the beginning!


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #185, 05-29-2019 11:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

I got to give it to Larry, he was right from the beginning!


Yes, Yes, I failed to complete my build. Mr. Larry is so wise.

Except, I'm not sure it all ended so badly...




Plus, I learned a lot about cars along the way.

[This message has been edited by Corpsmen Ed (edited 05-29-2019).]

olejoedad (welch.joe.714@gmail.com) MSG #186, 05-30-2019 12:06 AM
      Gee Ed, why would you want that old thing?



πŸ‘πŸΌπŸ‘πŸΌ


La fiera MSG #187, 05-30-2019 02:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Plus, I learned a lot about cars along the way.



That's what counts and congrats on your new car! It is very nice!



Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #188, 05-30-2019 09:21 PM
      Thanks guys. I am over the moon. It basically has everything already on it that I was going to do to my Fiero. And I got it for about what I would have spent on the total Fiero project. I just don't have to wait another 4 or 5 years to enjoy it. I'm not getting any younger.



La fiera MSG #189, 05-30-2019 11:27 PM
      Now what you have to do is join your local SCCA club and sign up for a track day!
You'll get an instructor that will help you become one with your new machine.
That's the only safe place you'll get to put your new car to perform to what it was
designed for. I'm an instructor myself! Good luck and enjoy your Evora!


Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #190, 06-15-2019 11:24 AM
      I am happy to announce that a fellow Fiero Forum member stopped by my place today and purchased everything I had. It's all gone!

I could not be happier that the car will be going to a community member. Not only do I not have to haul it to a scrap yard, but I don't have to sell it off piecemeal and bit by bit.

I really appreciate all the feedback and support I have received from members over the years. Fieros will always hold a special place in my heart, as will the friends and contacts I have made on this site. I look forward to seeing all the great builds that continue and seeing these nice rides in person at various shows and cruises. Thanks again to everyone.


Tony Kania MSG #191, 06-15-2019 11:31 AM
      Very cool ending to this thread.

Our best to your best...


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #192, 06-16-2019 09:47 AM
      Been here since 2000 and have seen many projects started then abandoned. Also seen projects that took 10+ years to complete. Projects sometimes take 100's of hour to complete and not everyone has the time to spare. Except for my ragtop project I try to keep the mods mild to enjoy the car now not later.