Quad 4 swap (lot of pics)
Topic started by: sardonyx247, Date: 06-19-2012 04:54 AM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/123416.html


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #1, 06-19-2012 04:54 AM
      I am swaping in a Quad 4 DOHC High Output 2.3L into my 87 base couple daily driver.
I thought I would share the tons of pics I have and info.
The reason I am doing a Quad 4 is that I have 2 1/2 H.O. engines and I want more MPG than the duke has. (I am getting 30MPG now) plus double the HP is not bad either. I also got a whole Quad swap from Fierobsessed (his swap thread can be found here http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-1-039415.html ) I was going to do a turbo Quad swap back in 2003-2004 but I got my GT and, well, just kept working on that. Now that my GT is turbo charged I figured I would get back to my quad swap in the quest for MPG. And with the clutch going out on my duke I figured "what better time"
I do have to rebuild the quad and use the best parts of the 3 engines I have. I also allready have 2 full gasket sets. Being a quest for MPG means I want to spend as little $$$ as possible on this swap.
I started to tear down the engines 2 days ago and have spent most of my free time working on them so pics may/will come slowly.
So here are some pics to start untill I get more time to post. I am going to be posting TONS of pics as there is not enough Quad 4 swap info on here.




Cleaning up the engine that came out of Fierobsessed's Indy









Lots of close ups of the engine sitting on the cradle, different angles, to make sure I can get it all back together, and to show how everything fits.







Here is the \/ \/ \/ Indy it came out of









sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #2, 06-19-2012 05:05 AM
      Did I mention I have TONS of pics.


The engine mounts









The Slave adapter.



The modified T-stat housing



More engine pics







The transmission clearance. (or lack there of )



Solid cradle mounts.





A few different engine covers I have.







More pics later, need to sleep


carbon MSG #3, 06-19-2012 10:43 AM
      Love those manifolds, intake and exhaust... some engineer was really proud of those castings.

Stubby79 MSG #4, 06-19-2012 12:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

Love those manifolds, intake and exhaust... some engineer was really proud of those castings.


I'm with you. That's some nice engine pr0n!

Such a tiny engine for what it can do.


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #5, 06-19-2012 12:17 PM
      I knew a guy who had a quad four Fiero but I never rode in it. He reported that the power band down low felt exactly like his Duke but as soon as the revs hit 3000 RPM the power came on fast. I don't believe that he was getting better gas mileage than a Duke a something like 35 hwy mpg. I've heard of Duke owners with the 5 speed Isuzu's getting 39 to 40 hwy mpg. Good luck with the swap.



ericjon262 MSG #6, 06-19-2012 12:29 PM
      Loving it! keep up with the pics! nice to see another swap that's not a 3800!!



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #7, 06-19-2012 04:51 PM
      Time for more pics.

More pics before dissambly.








Exhaust, I don't know if I will use it as it is LOUD. Not that I mind loud but I allready have a loud Fiero.



What a great stock manifold.



Water pump is tucked in there good.



This coolent pipe ws moddified for the 84', I will just use a stock un modded one for the 87'
as the heater return ties into the coolent pipe on 87's



Broken wire on the alt I need to fix.



A/C compressor, I will have to make up new A/C lines as you can see the oil filter is in the way of useing stock Fiero lines.





Engine grounds.



The starter is also tucked in there, but at least it is on the intake side.







sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #8, 06-19-2012 05:29 PM
      More pics of the mounts.












A couple more pics of the solid cradle.





The tensioner bracket.







sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #9, 06-19-2012 06:25 PM
      Pics of the throttle body, this is not a stock Quad 4 TB, it is a 3.4 DOHC TB








The adapter, with matched bored out intake.






Gasket for it.



Linkage adapter.



Water pump.










sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #10, 06-19-2012 07:20 PM
      The stock double rollor timming chain. What a great thing. and cam gears.












The chain tensioner.





The block.


















Time to go work on it some more, will post more pics later.
I'm sure your ISP (Internet Service Provider) hates you by now anyway
I have alot more pics and more to take too, stay tuned.


mwhite (mike.white@rogers.com) MSG #11, 06-19-2012 09:23 PM
      I am glad to see another Quad4 Fiero in progress. It was a fun little FWD engine that loved to rev. I started down the road of building a Quad4 Fiero, but the project got derailed when my Quad4 block was un-usable.
I may have some odds and ends you could use. I have the W41 EFI chip that is supposed to be good for 5hp over the H.O chip. I also have some rebuild parts that you may need too. Send me a PM if you are interested.


ericjon262 MSG #12, 06-20-2012 12:28 AM
      TOO AWESOME!

Just an FYI though, the throttle body is off a shortstar not a 3.4 DOHC, I've got two of those TB's in my garage.

What are your plans for the swap, just a rebuild? or maybe on of those fancy spinning exhaust things that go woosh?



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #13, 06-20-2012 07:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mwhite:

I am glad to see another Quad4 Fiero in progress. It was a fun little FWD engine that loved to rev. I started down the road of building a Quad4 Fiero, but the project got derailed when my Quad4 block was un-usable.
I may have some odds and ends you could use. I have the W41 EFI chip that is supposed to be good for 5hp over the H.O chip. I also have some rebuild parts that you may need too. Send me a PM if you are interested.


The chip I have is allready a W41. I think I have what I need, and I hope to have this swap done by the time anything could arrive in the mail. But I will PM you to see what you got.

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

TOO AWESOME!

Just an FYI though, the throttle body is off a shortstar not a 3.4 DOHC, I've got two of those TB's in my garage.

What are your plans for the swap, just a rebuild? or maybe on of those fancy spinning exhaust things that go woosh?



Mainly just a rebuild, and getting all the power I can N/A with what I have to work with.
I allready have a "Vacuum drivin centrifugal exhaust muffling device" on my GT and with that, I know boost makes my MPG damn near go in the negitives, (can't stay out of it, too much fun) and stock compression being 10:1 doesn't give me any room for boost. And I just don't want to boost this swap.

I was also told the TB is a 96-97 3.4 DOHC Throttlebody.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 06-20-2012).]

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #14, 06-20-2012 10:58 AM
      Definitely a 3.4 DOHC TB. But, it looks like they are pretty much the same anyway. Keep up the good work, I'd love to see this back on the road.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #15, 06-20-2012 05:39 PM
      Time for more pics.


The cam towers.




The bottom end. Well the stock windage tray anyway and oil pickup.












The cast aluminum oil pan. mmm milky oil.




The combustion chambers. Unfortunately this head is cracked so I can't use it. So time to tear down another Quad.





sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #16, 06-20-2012 06:12 PM
      Quad number 2.
There are some brackets/heat sheilds/etc that were missing from the first Quad, so this engine will "fill in some blanks"
Hopefully this head will not be cracked.



























sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #17, 06-20-2012 06:18 PM
      The missing brackets.


The heat sheild on top of the exhaust.



The front engine lift bracket.



The intake support bracket and transmission lower cover.



The lower exhaust manifold bracket.





The rear A/C bracket.



The front A/C bracket, small but still a bracket.



Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #18, 06-20-2012 06:31 PM
      Curios about the milky oil, that one is a surprise. The CC's look free of leakage, you would have seen a clean piston. I wouldn't put too much weight into minor cracks between valve seats and spark plug holes. That head may still be the best one you'll find, unless of course the milky oil was the result of a more serious crack in the head. If you have pictures of the cracks I'd like to see them. It took me quite a while to find a head that was, at least at the time, free of cracks. It came from a 91 Q4 LO. IIRC. Not like there isn't a whole lot of these in a yard very close to you

The only places I could see being the source of the leakage would be either a serious cracked head, water pump, headbolts, a leaky headgasket, or water getting in externally. Either way I'm still a bit surprised that it has milky oil.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #19, 06-20-2012 06:48 PM
      Yes the cracks are very small, don't know if they would show up in a pic. But they are there none the less. As far as using the cracked head "Just say no to crack"
And picked-a-part wants close to $90 for a DOHC head and they are not the easiest to pull. The milky oil is what was left over in the pan, I don't recall the oil being too bad as I drained it. As for seeing the cracks you are encouraged to come see them in person.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #20, 06-20-2012 07:10 PM
      Tear down of Quad no.2













Full of water, poor engine.




And the DIRTY head.





BUT it is crack free, it is not an 086 head but it is a 753E head rated at 5 less HP, (non ported) and less prone to cracking.
The exhaust ports are a little smaller, intake is the exact same and valve sizes are the same too.
Took a few hours cleaning out all the carbon from it, and the valves don't look so hot.
I need to figure out what all to use head wise at this point.

More to come.


Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #21, 06-20-2012 09:20 PM
      One more thing, The transmission on my old Quad is a 3.94:1 unit from an Achieva SCX. It NEEDS work. It is functional, but I think some synchros and or shift forks were messed up from day one. You're probably going to have to mishmash a few Getrags to make one good one.

Also, with that slave adaptor, You do obviously use a stock getrag slave. However... The shift arm that it actuates is much shorter then the Fiero's Getrag. There are two consequences to that. You would need to put a clutch stop in place to restrict the travel. The other issue is that the pedal is fairly hard. It feels like a very heavily sprung pressure plate, even though it is stock.

I've heard that the plastic slave that is designed for the Q4's getrag with the Fiero's master has too short a stroke, so this was the solution I came up with. I didn't use a stroke limiter, but probably should have.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #22, 06-21-2012 07:40 PM
      Here is how I like to keep the bolts organized.
If it is going to be a long time between disassembly and reassembly, ziplock bags and marking the bags with a sharpie is a better way.




A good way to keep the valves in order




The pile of parts, really a small pile compared to other engines.




The fuel rail and injectors.




The bottom of the cam covers.






The tappets that fit in the cam covers and sit on top of the valves.






I thought this was a cool feature. The valve springs sit on top of bearings instead of just the head.



[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 06-22-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #23, 06-22-2012 12:28 AM
      damn! after reading up a little on the quad four, I wish I had done a Q4 swap instead of my 3500 I'm working on! 180hp four cylinder! that's impressive!



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #24, 06-22-2012 06:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

damn! after reading up a little on the quad four, I wish I had done a Q4 swap instead of my 3500 I'm working on! 180hp four cylinder! that's impressive!



And that is stock before any modding, fully modded I have seen them up to 220 N/A. That was 8 years ago, prob more now. Boosted ones are hitting over 400HP.
I am hoping for 200hp myself.

Fierobsessed hit 166.6HP at the wheels in the indy, with no porting. video here --> http://www.streetfire.net/v...o1666-hp-6_17460.htm


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #25, 06-22-2012 07:11 AM
      Speaking of porting.....


Here is the 753 head I have to work with. Rated at 5HP less than the 086.








The intake ports, same size as the 086 head. BTW the 086 is the best flowing head.




The exhaust ports. They are a litte smaller than the 086 head. Thus the 5HP less and the exhaust manifold for the 753 is a little smaller too, but I won't be useing that manifold.




Exhaust ports, 753 on top, 086 on the bottom.




I made a template from the 086 head.




How it looks on the 753 head.




I used a sharpie to mark the differance.








sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #26, 06-22-2012 07:32 AM
      After opening up the exhaust ports.

The 086 exhaust port to compare.




One side of the port opened up to match the 086 head.






All the ports matched.
















The cutting tool I used, it is a very aggressive aluminum cutting bit, cuts very fast and doesn't clog up.




And what I used to make sure the port are the same size as the 086.




Now it flows the same as the 086 head.
I still have to port the bowls on the exhaust and smooth it all out. Then smooth out the intake side, no gains on opening up the intake, just smooth it out. Most gains on porting a Quad head comes from the exhaust. I do have this very nice cut-a-way of a Quad head.




More porting to do tomorrow.


Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #27, 06-22-2012 07:45 AM
      It's a good little engine. It got me 33 MPG on the highway without breaking a sweat, I probably could have gotten much more out of it if I wasn't busy making SO much noise.

It is an engine that does deliver! It's SMALLER then a duke displacement wise, and it is only a bit heavier. It gets the same mileage as a duke, but puts out twice the power easily. It's also a bunch of fun to drive!

It's not an easy swap however. It requires a bit of work to make the mounts work, and even then, you're very hard pressed to get it to fit under a deck lid because it is so tall. A good exhaust is hard to do too since the exhaust must exit the rear of the engine, you are almost forced to either cut the trunk, or make a snakey mess single exhaust, or go without a cat. Or do what I did and make a few noise complaints in the process. At least it sounds NOTHING like an import for some reason.

I'm glad I did the swap, but I'll be happy again when the next engine goes into the Indy. When I get my act together that car is getting some royal treatment... Not disclosing yet, not in Dave's build thread anyway. This is his baby.


Quad GT (quadgti@gmail.com ) MSG #28, 06-22-2012 12:31 PM
      Since 1992 Ive been driving my "85 GT with a Quad 4 16V H.O.
This little motor just never quits and loves revving
Soon Im going to have to do a full rebuild, any particular mods that you suggest? Turbo? Now that would be interesting.


MarkS (mshucks2@earthlink.net) MSG #29, 06-22-2012 06:18 PM
      Great thread!! Used to be a site, Mantapart that had lots of stuff for the Quad, sadly, looks like it is no longer. When he was retiring (2010), looks like he tried to sell the business, but seems no one picked it up.

BR's,

Mark



gtoformula (rick.maybury@verizon.net) MSG #30, 06-22-2012 10:33 PM
      PM sent re Kent Moore Quad 4 tool set

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #31, 06-24-2012 09:01 AM
      Now that the head flows like a stock 086, time do do some bowl work porting.
I opened up the bowls to be the same size as the valve seats, there was a good 1/8" to remove, blended the bowls into the ports, and smoothed the short side radius.
Then did a mirror polish on all of it. This will help carbon from sticking to the walls of the port.


Taping off the valve seats. I used lots of tape and if you hit the tape at all add more tape.
This will/should stop the valve seats from getting nicked.
I also used old valves in the intake to protect those seats.










The rough cut.












The finished exhaust ports, so smooth and shiny. Should be good flowing.












Before and after, The finished bowls.







sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #32, 06-24-2012 09:25 AM
      Compared to a stock 086 head.

086 on top, ported 753E on the bottom.










Now I have to port the intake, but on a Quad 4 head you just have to clean up the intake, not much to be gained there.


A bunch of parts ready to be cleaned. I took the best parts of the 3 engines.








Our parts washer, it is able to do HIGH pressure HOT soapy water. It is soooo nice.
It runs off of gas for the pressure and deisel for the heat, and special rigged to be able to do high pressure soap too.








Cleaned parts, courtesy of my friend Tim.








Engine mounts.




Tim spent a few hours and wire wheeled/brushed the cradle, to get ready for paint and to get rid of that east coast rust.






I got a bunch more to do tomorrow, almost time for reassembly, and only a week into it.


Questions and comments are always welcome too.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #33, 06-24-2012 09:35 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad GT:

Since 1992 Ive been driving my "85 GT with a Quad 4 16V H.O.
This little motor just never quits and loves revving
Soon Im going to have to do a full rebuild, any particular mods that you suggest? Turbo? Now that would be interesting.


Mods to suggest.?.?
Not sure on years that have these,
get the small crank pully, I think 90-92'
the biggest exhaust manifold, some are smaller than others, but they look the same.
the W41 cams 5HP
The W41 chip 5HP, and raises the redline from 6700 RPM to 7400 RPM. I can always burn you a chip if you need one.
Good free flowing exhaust,
get a high flowing head and have it ported.
gasket match the intake manifold

Use a power adder, boost and NOS are always fun, but must be built for.
And that is whole nother build itself.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 07-30-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #34, 06-24-2012 06:58 PM
      Keep it up!



Carcenomy MSG #35, 06-25-2012 02:41 AM
      Just a quick question regarding Quad4s, what's the story with the 2.4 Twin Cam LD9? Do any of the W41 or Quad4 HO parts fit it?

Pretty cool build by the way, quite fond of the concept. It just looks the part in a Fiero.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #36, 06-25-2012 05:08 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:

Just a quick question regarding Quad4s, what's the story with the 2.4 Twin Cam LD9? Do any of the W41 or Quad4 HO parts fit it?

Pretty cool build by the way, quite fond of the concept. It just looks the part in a Fiero.


The 2.4L came after 95, the only way to get the cams to fit is you have to get the Intake cam from a 95 as the power steering gear is different, (called "the secret cam swap") but I believe the exhaust cam fits. I have seen a page with the H.O. Intake manifold moddified to fit, I think they cut off the flange and welded the 2.4 one on. The rest of the parts I don't know off hand.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 06-25-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #37, 06-25-2012 06:18 AM
      I finished up porting the head today, yea
I didn't really touch the intake much at all. Where the valve seats go into the head there was a little bump, smoothed that out. The divider between ports I knife edged a bit, but the rest I left alone. Porting the exhaust is where all the gains are on the Quad 4 head.


But I did polish the combustion chambers to a nice shine. You want to remove as little of metal as possible, just to get a good polish on it. (It eliminates sharp points causeing hot spots, and it helps stop carbon from sticking) I used the old valves I had and polished away.


Before and after the sanding.






More before pics.






All polished out, and done porting and polishing the head.




Now comes the intake manifold.
The intake on the head is bigger than the intake gasket, so the gasket needs to be opened up to match the head.
In this pic the new gasket has been opened up and is overlayed on the old gasket, the black in the post is how much it is opened up over the base gasket.
Kinda hard to see but it's there.






Now that the gasket matches the head, the gasket is alot bigger than the intake manifold ports. Time for more porting.
This shows just how much the manifold needs to be opened.






Again I used a sharpie to mark off the port.




But since I couldn't get the sharpie close enough due to the thickness of the gasket, I also used a sharp nail to scratch a line closer to the edge.
You can see how much needs to be removed and blended in.






Now you can see how much better it is.






On the left port above, there is a bump in the port I also smoothed out to open up the port to match the other ports.

Porting has shown some good gains in the Quad 4, thus where I plan on getting the other 15HP to bring me to 200HP, plus what the bigger throttle body gives too.
On a reg FWD Quad 4s they have headers now good for 15-20HP, having the free flowing exhaust on the Fiero should help quite a bit too

Almost done prepping the parts, then it's time to reassemble.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #38, 06-25-2012 07:31 PM
      Here are some good links.

Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Quad-4_engine

And tons of specs on the Quad 4, the 2.3L is half way down the page.
http://www.quad4forums.com/forums/techdata.php


Carcenomy MSG #39, 06-26-2012 02:31 AM
      Some pretty interesting reading. Damnit, I was going to use that 3800 in my shed from my old Fiero but heck if you haven't gotten me excited about a Quad!

zkhennings MSG #40, 06-26-2012 09:14 AM
      I like.
I wanted to do a quad 4 swap for a while but went another route instead... What did you use to polish the compustion chamber? And did you use those cutting bits in a dremel? I plan on a bunch of porting and polishing real soon and I need to buy bits for a dremel or an air grinder (I have both) And Im just not sure where to get them


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #41, 06-26-2012 07:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

I like.
I wanted to do a quad 4 swap for a while but went another route instead... What did you use to polish the compustion chamber? And did you use those cutting bits in a dremel? I plan on a bunch of porting and polishing real soon and I need to buy bits for a dremel or an air grinder (I have both) And Im just not sure where to get them


This is the porting kit I got years ago, I forget where the aluminum cutting bit came from, the carbide bit was gotten at local tool-mart type place, they usally have them cheap(er) they work with a drill or air grinder.
I also used a bunch of small flap wheels, for the die grinder too.
I polished the combustion chamber with a small 120 grit flap wheel in a dremel, then finished with the cross buffs that come in the porting kit.

Air grinder works best, drill also works just goes slower, dremel is good for small/tight spaces, otherwise way too slow.

First get a porting kit it has most everything you need, if not everything.
Carbide bits take out metal fast, so only get one once you feel ok about grinding/porting. Practicing first on a junk head is always best.
The aluminum cutting bits cut aluminum very fast, only use when you know what you are doing.
Flap wheels are great for smoothing, and come in different grits.

Here is a Great guide on porting. http://65corvette.nonethewi...echnical/diyport.pdf


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #42, 06-26-2012 07:40 PM
      On to more pics.


There is a check valve it the corner of the block, to keep oil from draining down so it has oil on start up.
Sometimes the ball can come out so make sure it is there.




The block.










The oil pump and windage tray.










The windage tray and oil pump bracket.




The oil pump.






How it lines up on the crank.




The crank and rods. 5 main caps and its only a 4 cyl. And 2 counter weights per piston.










The end plate cover, with rear main seal in it.






And where it goes.





sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #43, 06-26-2012 08:16 PM
     
The pistons.








The pistons have floating pins, GM really put alot into this engine. The can be removed without a press, only a clip on each side holding in the pins. nice.










The pistons all weigh within a gram.




But one of the rods is 15 grams overweight from the other ones.
So I have some balancing to do.



Carcenomy MSG #44, 06-27-2012 01:42 AM
      I've been reading the crap out of the links you gave, and more. I'm officially excited about the Quad4 now, I hope you're happy!

You're not exactly shagging around, keep up the good work!


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #45, 06-27-2012 07:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:

I've been reading the crap out of the links you gave, and more. I'm officially excited about the Quad4 now, I hope you're happy!



I'm getting there, this swap is comming right along. The closer to being done the more excited I will get. Don't get me wrong I am having a ton of fun doing this swap.


I got the balancing done now, so now all the pistons, pins, rings, and rods together weigh within 1 gram of each other. I didn't feel like going down to 1/10 gram as there is prob that much oil or carbon left on one.


15 grams is alot to take off these rods, not alot of balancing pads on them. So after grinding and smoothing off the whole pad on the bottom,.......




I decided to polish the beam to get the last bit of weight off. It even makes the rod stronger too. I would polish the other rods, but one, not needed for the power I am going to run and two, it would make the other rods too light for me to be able to match this rod to them.




Now all good.




I tried to make a setup so I could balance each end of the rods, (I know a bit of overkill)
I tried many different setups and just could not get consistent readings, the static friction wouldn't let it happen. And after balancing the rods I see there is not really a balance pad on the small end so it would not have worked too well anyway. Here is one of the things I made to try, prob would work if I had a bearing on the big end. It did work to an extent but not good enough for me.





sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #46, 06-27-2012 07:46 PM
      When I pulled of the trans from quad no2, I found this carnage.






The trans seems to be ok, which is the good thing as I still need to figure out what trans I am going to use.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #47, 06-28-2012 03:22 AM
      What a great thing the Quad 4 comes with piston oil squirters stock. As you can see with the hole in the rod and bearing.
When the crank comes around it squirts oil up through the hole to the piston, GM did all the tech in this engine.








Always test the starter before you put one in.




I wanted to post some good pics of the mounts in case some one wanted to recreate it.
You (and I) can thank Fierobsessed for the mounts.


























The cutout for the trans.




The cutout for the A/C.





Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #48, 06-28-2012 03:28 AM
      Nice clutch!!!

The one that is on my old motor is practically new, its a stock replacement, nothing special.

I'm really surprised that ONE rod was so much heavier, was there any obvious reason? Like a visibly chunkier rod beam? The rods and pistons did all come out of the same H.O. engine. So something has to give.

Good job on the head, it looks like a winner.

I'll be in NY for the next week and a half, If I had a chance I'd be up at the shop, I wan't to see this come together. I kinda want to see WTF is up with that 3.94 transmission. I have a couple sets of good used synchros on hand. Maybe make one nice transmission? I also have those brackets I took when we pulled the swap. I MAY not need them in the future as I'm going F23 with the L67/32 and the F40 on the LQ1. Just seems like the right way to go these days if you want anything powerful to last you know?


Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #49, 06-28-2012 03:36 AM
      Oh, and about that rear mount. That one has a little story...

Originally, I was trying to fit a rather large muffler between the cradle and the trunk wall. I made my clearance on the cradle, and it intruded on the rear transmission mount area. So I did that little piece of metal to hold that one funny looking mount. If I were to redo it, I'd probably have not clearanced the cradle, used a stock mount on the cradle, and a custom low profile mount on the transmission. That mount is way hard compared to the other two rather soft mounts. But it HAD to be ridgid to keep the transmission from smashing the cradle in that one spot. This setup is mounted as LOW as was physically possible, and still straight and level. And it just manages to clear the torsion spring and decklid. It is a tall engine!


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #50, 06-28-2012 03:39 AM
      The one rod looks exactly like the others, but a half an ounce is a big differance.
I was planing on useing your clutch, cause it looks fine.
I will be going through all the trans I have to choose from to make a good one. The trans from the 2nd one seems like a good 3.94, I might go the 3.61 if it comes together right. For MPG.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #51, 06-28-2012 03:46 AM
      The factory specs says under 2 grams for all the rods in the same engine, so this one rod was way outa spec, now all are under 1 gram.
And yeah it is a TALL engine.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #52, 06-28-2012 04:48 AM
      Oh, and all the pistons were within a gram of each other, so it was the rod.

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #53, 06-28-2012 04:51 AM
      Best mileage, I'd say use a 3.61 Quad 4 getrag, and press on a Fiero's 5th gear. So you'll end up with the same gearing you are used to in 5th on your GT, and you can still sport the performance oriented gearing of the Quad 4 ratios 1st, 2nd and 4th. 3rd we all know is the same in all transmission.

As it is, the 3.94 box is still *Slightly* taller on 5th then a standard Quad 4's 3.61, it uses the Fiero's 5th gear. So at the very least, you can source the parts from that box if you want the Fiero's 5th. Plenty of options with those two style boxes. You already are fully aware of the advantages of the later differentials too. You can make a really nice transmission with what you've got on hand. One thing to keep in mind, is that the only way to get a shorter 3rd gear, is to use a 3.94 differential. That's the only reason I sprung for an SCX transmission in the first place. It's a shame the shifting was all messed up on that transmission. The gears were good though.

The gear side case on the 3.94 was very different to the older 3.61's it had a few parts fitment issues, The spots where the transmission cables are mounted, both shift and select had bolt bosses in the wrong spots. I would not use that case if you have the opportunity to swap them.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #54, 06-28-2012 07:12 PM
      Here is a good site explaining the differances between years of the Quad 4.
http://www.quad4forums.com/...owthread.php?t=19015


hercimer01 MSG #55, 06-28-2012 08:04 PM
      Nice work Dave!!

Sorry I sold the 3.4 4 speed auto Formula you built for me. I sold it cuz i finished my L67 into my 86GT. But I did buy an 88 coupe with 97K on it that I've been resurrecting for the gas mileage reason too.

The best gas mileage I got with the Formula was 26 MPG.
My L67 in my 86GT gets 23 MPG.
I'm putting a 4 speed auto in the 88 duke. I'm curious as to what I will get.

Nice work as always.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #56, 06-29-2012 06:05 PM
      Thanks for the comment.

I still have alot to do.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #57, 06-30-2012 07:32 AM
      I haven't had many pics the last couple of days, had some unrelated things to take care of.


Here is the crank, this thing is HEAVY, I would say 35 - 40 lbs, heavy for a 4 cyl crank. (or prob for any cyl crank)
The oil holes for the mains go all the way through and the rods tie into the mains holes, so the rods are always getting oil, instead of only half the rotation like most engines.




The bare block all clean after the pressure washer, I also used a screwdriver and a wire brush to clean out the coolent passages.
Not even the slightest ridge on the pistons holes, this block is great, no need to bore or new pistons.










The pressure washer revealed some red paint under the balck, like some hideous past, more black paint is in order.






Here are the two gaskets sets I have. I bought one, then my cat ate one of the cam cover gaskets, so I started looking for the gasket I needed, then I found a second gasket set on ebay very cheap minus the head gasket. So it worked out great, this was years ago. They are different sets, I figured I would show pics of the differences between the two.






Here is the KS 2660




and the HS 9515 PT




I hope all these pics help someone someday.
I do wonder if I have blown up a phone or two trying to view this mobile.


skuzzbomer MSG #58, 06-30-2012 03:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

I do wonder if I have blown up a phone or two trying to view this mobile.


Nope, but you have crashed my browser countless times


hypo327 (mickey_327@verizon.net) MSG #59, 06-30-2012 04:28 PM
      Sweeeeeet! Thanks for sharing! Let us know how it performs!

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #60, 06-30-2012 07:06 PM
      Always remember,

If you can't keep it in your car....
Keep it wrapped, and Keep it clean.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #61, 07-02-2012 04:17 AM
      To knock out this seal just set it on some blocks of wood, like shown, and use a screwdriver and a hammer to knock it out.





sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #62, 07-02-2012 04:27 AM
      Time to paint some parts. I wire wheel'd all the east coast rust off first, there wasn't much, but things just don't rust out here in Vegas.


Before. Timming chain cover, rear main seal housing, and water pump housing.




After.




Before. The engine mounts and balancer.






After.

















sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #63, 07-02-2012 07:39 AM
      Questions, Opinions, Comments?.?.?

ericjon262 MSG #64, 07-02-2012 09:33 AM
      looking good, keep up the good work! it's nice to see something different.



Carcenomy MSG #65, 07-03-2012 06:35 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

Questions, Opinions, Comments?.?.?


Sure. When are you coming to build me one?


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #66, 07-03-2012 08:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:


Sure. When are you coming to build me one?


As soon as you pay for travel expenses, room and board. I would LOVE to go build you one.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #67, 07-03-2012 08:56 AM
      Painted parts after the paint is dry and the tape removed, ah as the pile of ready to assemble parts grows.




More prepped, cleaned, and de-rusted parts ready for paint.
The alternator, A/C, and belt tensioner bracket.




From left to right, the stock coolent tube, the engine lift bracket, the oil dipstick/fill tube, and lower A/C bracket.




Lower exhaust manifold heat shield, upper heat shield, lower exhaust manifold bracket.




All painted, (paint's still wet)














About 2/3rds done painting, almost ready to put all these painted parts together.



stickboy MSG #68, 07-03-2012 11:52 AM
      great thread

I like the quad 4. If I didn't have to pass PA's visual emission check, it would be on my possible engine swaps list. Since I use my fiero as a daily driver for more than 5,000 mile a year, no egr valve means it wouldn't pass.....


ericjon262 MSG #69, 07-03-2012 01:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by stickboy:

great thread

I like the quad 4. If I didn't have to pass PA's visual emission check, it would be on my possible engine swaps list. Since I use my fiero as a daily driver for more than 5,000 mile a year, no egr valve means it wouldn't pass.....


why not? the quad four didn't have one factory. and when you tell them it's been swapped from a 199x olds xxxxxx they should base their inspection on that. I would check with a smog ref/ do some reading up on it before I wrote it off.



Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #70, 07-03-2012 02:48 PM
      I found that I could not legally register my pace car in Las Vegas due to that very issue, at least going through the proper legal channels (or challenges)

It was another case of, "well this car came with an EGR, and I do not see any EGR".

The DMV required that the manufacturer of the Engine (GM) write a letter, certifying that this engine was in fact a drivetrain from a "91 Beretta" and that it meets all the emissions equipment requirements of that engine.

Unfortunately, I did everything I could to get that letter, and NO one, NOT one person was willing to put their name on a document that would only serve as a liability to them. So there was a way to do it, but it would never happen.

There are ways around this...
You could put the EGR on it, and that would make it compliant.
Or just find an inspector that is corrupt, or incompetent.



ericjon262 MSG #71, 07-03-2012 03:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

I found that I could not legally register my pace car in Las Vegas due to that very issue, at least going through the proper legal channels (or challenges)

It was another case of, "well this car came with an EGR, and I do not see any EGR".

The DMV required that the manufacturer of the Engine (GM) write a letter, certifying that this engine was in fact a drivetrain from a "91 Beretta" and that it meets all the emissions equipment requirements of that engine.

Unfortunately, I did everything I could to get that letter, and NO one, NOT one person was willing to put their name on a document that would only serve as a liability to them. So there was a way to do it, but it would never happen.

There are ways around this...
You could put the EGR on it, and that would make it compliant.
Or just find an inspector that is corrupt, or incompetent.



I still don't see why it would matter if it blows clean... but thats another thread.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #72, 07-03-2012 05:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

I found that I could not legally register my pace car in Las Vegas due to that very issue, at least going through the proper legal channels (or challenges)

It was another case of, "well this car came with an EGR, and I do not see any EGR".

The DMV required that the manufacturer of the Engine (GM) write a letter, certifying that this engine was in fact a drivetrain from a "91 Beretta" and that it meets all the emissions equipment requirements of that engine.

Unfortunately, I did everything I could to get that letter, and NO one, NOT one person was willing to put their name on a document that would only serve as a liability to them. So there was a way to do it, but it would never happen.

There are ways around this...
You could put the EGR on it, and that would make it compliant.
Or just find an inspector that is corrupt, or incompetent.


This is Vegas, they all are corrupt, or incompetent, you just went to the wrong kind of incompetent, thus why he wouldn't pass you.



ericjon262 MSG #73, 07-03-2012 06:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:


This is Vegas, they all are corrupt, or incompetent, you just went to the wrong kind of incompetent, thus why he wouldn't pass you.



LOL!


Reallybig MSG #74, 07-03-2012 09:10 PM
      Everything is looking great! As you're painting, I am reminded of my engine. I painted my 4.9 black and silver (aluminum) trying to keep things clean and stock looking. With the valve covers black and the oil pan black, the whole engine just disappears in the black engine bay. A lot of my detail work just isn't noticed. I wish I had chosen a different theme color....food for thought depending on your desires for an end result.

Keep up the good work! The Quad 4 was one of my serious considerations but decided on the 4.9 because I found one low miles in great condition. Maybe next time!


fourpoint9 (stevenmsimpson@comcast.net) MSG #75, 07-04-2012 05:21 PM
      Awesome job. I bought a Quad4 and then decided to do a 4.9L. Now that that one's done I'm doing the Quad4 in a Blue 87 coupe with 88 rear suspension.
I bought a rebuilt W41 block from a Quad4Forums member and used all the stuff from the wrecking yard motor I bought.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/086515-2.html


zkhennings MSG #76, 07-05-2012 03:01 PM
      I faked having an egr. I just used some metal wire to attach it to the cross over and then just shoved the tube under the intake and wrapped where it met the crossover with a metal foil and thin sheet metal. It looked very convincing. But I guess my fiero does not have to pass emmissions any more so they did nt even look under the hood. I thought it did because the RMV's site said 83 or older did not have to pass while mine is an 85, but I learned later is a 25 year old deal and the dmvs site was outdated. But regardless I am sure my fake egr job would have fooled them.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #77, 07-05-2012 08:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Reallybig:

With the valve covers black and the oil pan black, the whole engine just disappears in the black engine bay. A lot of my detail work just isn't noticed. I wish I had chosen a different theme color....food for thought depending on your desires for an end result.

Keep up the good work! The Quad 4 was one of my serious considerations but decided on the 4.9 because I found one low miles in great condition. Maybe next time!


I want it all to fade into the engine bay.


A few more painted parts. Some misc. brackets and the water fill housing.






All the black parts so far.





josef644 (josef644@hotmail.com) MSG #78, 07-05-2012 10:16 PM
      This is a swap I always wanted to do. I check in every few days and see your progress. Keep up the good work.
-Joe


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #79, 07-06-2012 07:59 AM
      Reassembly time.


The bare block.






The pistons and rods.




The "free floating pin" on the piston is held in by a clip on both sides of the pistons.
You can see the clip here.




And how the clip sits in the piston. Make sure the rod is facing the correct direction when reassembled on the piston.
(The oil squirt hole on the rod is on the same side as the valve reliefs.)




The main caps.




The crank back in the engine waiting for the main caps to be torqued down.




Putting the pistons back in. Make sure the arrow on the piston is pointing to the front of the engine.




I always tap the sides of the ring compressor down with a hammer to make sure the compressor is square with the top of the block.
(It helps the rings not pop out if there is a gap)




The boots on the rod bolts, you can also use rubber hose.




All the pistons in and torqued down.




With the windage tray, oil pump, and oil pick up support on.






I ran thread chasers in all the bolt holes on the block. If you use a tap, use a good quality tap like craftsman, do not use harbor freight taps, they are just a tad bigger and will make the bolts loose. I made my own thread chasers from old bolts and a dremal to cut the grooves in the bolts.






I still have to finish up and assemble the head before I can put it back on, and a bunch of seals to replace.
More to come......




sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #80, 07-07-2012 01:11 AM
      I'm going camping for a few days so this will have to wait.
But I will leave you with an awesome video series on the Quad 4,
A GM training video on rebuilding the Quad 4.

ENJOY


Part 1


Part 2


Part 3


Part 4


Part 5


Part 6


Part 7


Part 8


Part 9


Part 10



Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #81, 07-07-2012 12:27 PM
      Thanks for all the pictures. There are two or three of us working on Quad swaps right now, but fourpoint9 is making the most progress. Here's his thread:

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/086515-2.html

He has good pictures of how he did his exhaust. He used the same kind of engine mounts you did. I was planning to go that route, but now I'm thinking I may use the stock lower and upper mounts from my '92 GTZ.

Please keep posting pics as you go.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #82, 07-13-2012 03:48 AM
      Yeah he allready posted his swap. And as for making the most progress, I would hope so, he started a year ago, It is looking good so far though.

I just got back from taking a week off, it has been raining sideways since I got back. I haven't really wanted to open my Quad to the elements yet. I can't paint the last parts for the same reason. I did get my dash programed, and I am working on a bigger booster for it (prototype, no welding). When the rain lets up I will be posting another obsence amount of pics of the reassembly. I haven't decided on what exhaust I want to go with yet. I have to rewire the harness, figure out the fuel lines, reprogram the ECM a bit, build a trans. So I got some work to do, and crash a few browsers while I am at it. Wish me luck.




Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #83, 07-13-2012 04:16 PM
      Wish you could send some of that rain to Oklahoma. Fourpoint9 started his swap about the same time I started mine, but other projects keep popping and delaying mine. I've had to replace a transmission in one daughter's car twice, and fix a blown head gasket on another daughter's car. Now I'm rearranging my shop before diving back into the Fiero.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #84, 07-15-2012 08:53 AM
      I got all the tools needed to rebuild brake boosters today.
This is the first one of the bigger boosters with the correct rod and not a welded rod that I made,
It is going into my Quad4 Fiero. I figure if I am going to double the HP of the duke, may as well double the brakes too.






I also got all the jumpers set on the dash I am going to use, for the higher rev limit and 4 cyl setting.
I will post pics when I install it. The stock tach just won't go to 7400RPM


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #85, 07-15-2012 02:16 PM
      What is that booster from?

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #86, 07-15-2012 05:35 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

What is that booster from?


It is the S10 type and Fiero booster combined.

They are available in the mall.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/060500.html


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #87, 07-16-2012 09:26 PM
      To install the seals use a block of wood and a hammer.




Seals installed.






When you install the rear main seal housing cover put on the gasket first over the two dowel pins, and add some oil to the lip of the seal, then slip it on.




The block all preped for paint, with the rain and high winds I decided to hold off on painting it just yet.











Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #88, 07-17-2012 01:36 PM
      I love all the pics and the step by step descriptions. It's been four years since I had my Quad apart, and even then I only put a new head and timing chain/gears on it, I didn't disassemble the bottom end. That was almost 100,000 miles ago, so it's ready for a complete rebuild when I pull it out of the GTZ for the Fiero swap.

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #89, 07-17-2012 01:43 PM
      Two more questions:

-Where did you get the polyurethane bushing for the custom transmission mount?
-How did you make that thermostat housing?


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #90, 07-17-2012 04:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

I love all the pics and the step by step descriptions.


I want this to be both pics of my swap and a how-to.

 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Two more questions:

-Where did you get the polyurethane bushing for the custom transmission mount?
-How did you make that thermostat housing?


Both came from PFF member Fierobsessed.
They were part of the swap stuff I got from him.




sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #91, 07-17-2012 04:32 PM
      The oil pan painted.






The block painted, it shines back the camera flash off the wet paint.






Without the flash.






Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #92, 07-17-2012 04:34 PM
      Looks great. What kind of paint are you using?

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #93, 07-17-2012 04:52 PM
      Rust-oleum 500deg engine paint, gloss black.

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #94, 07-17-2012 05:25 PM
      The polyurethane insert was part of a Fierostore dogbone re-bush kit.

The thermostat housing was a normal Fiero 4 cylinder piece. I cut off the flange where it bolts to the head, and made one that matched the quad 4's head, then welded it on. I also cut off the outlet and welded in an extension using parts from another quad's water return tube. I also welded a bung to the bottom and screwed in the quad 4's heater core outlet. This was VERY important! because the quad 4's heater core outlet has a 1/4" (ish) restrictor inside it. The engine is so rev happy that it tends to over-pressure the heater core. I blew my first heater core, then made that little change.

I'm not sure, but I think I may have cut off the neck itself and re-clocked it and welded it back on. I don't remember if I did that or not. It was 8 or 9 years ago that I did it, so my memory is a little rusty about the details.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #95, 07-17-2012 05:32 PM
      Cool. Doesn't the Quad's t-stat housing have two fittings, one for temp sensor and one for fan switch? Does the duke's have the same two?

And while I'm pelting you with questions, how did you solve the clutch slave cylinder issue? Looks like you made an adapter plate to use the Fiero slave cylinder, instead of using the Quad/Getrag slave with an adapter fitting, right?

[This message has been edited by Quad Raider (edited 07-17-2012).]

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #96, 07-17-2012 08:01 PM
      The quad 4, and all gm enines using a "P4" style ECM do not have a fan switch. It uses the Coolant Temperature Sensor, which reports actual coolant temperature to the ECM which then controls a relay that runs the fan based on programmed set points. There is one more temperature sensor, and it is only used to operate the temp gage and light on the dash. That sensor is in the head right next to the thermostat housing. The duke did have an additional sensor for the fan.

As for the slave... The original slave cylinder was a large plastic one. No matter what i did, I could not get enough stroke out of that slave to get the clutch to release. It was either due to the fact that the slave cannot be bled, or just that it was too large a diameter for the master to actuate. I made an adaptor that will use a standard fiero getrag slave. But, then the stroke turned out to be a bit on the long side, and the clutch pedal is very hard and touchy, but still totally drivable. Rodney Dickman does sell an adaptor that does this same thing. Should probably be used with a pedal limiter, or an adjustable banjo, which rodney also sells.

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 07-17-2012).]

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #97, 07-17-2012 11:50 PM
      Actually, I forgot that I put the sensor in the head as opposed to the water neck. So you are right about the two sensors in the water neck. I swapped the sensor for the heater core outlet I think...

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #98, 07-18-2012 12:58 AM
      The adjustable banjo he sells will not work as a pedal limiter, his will only make the pedal longer to be a band aid fix for other problems with a clutch system. IE: a garbage product. I will cut down and rethread my own banjo.

And yes there is one sensor in the custom neck and one in the head, the stock stat outlet has a throttle body feed with the two sensors inline with that. Without the need or want of TB coolent flow, what Fierobsessed did will work just fine. and for the ECM controled fan the 87 duke fan is allready ECM controlled, so no problem there.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #99, 07-18-2012 09:44 AM
      I remembered that I just happen to have examples of both engines sitting in my shop, so I took a couple photos:



This Quad is a spare non-HO I bought at a salvage a couple months ago. It still has the throttle body coolant lines attached. I removed them on the HO in my GTZ daily driver years ago. I never noticed the restriction on the Quad's heater hose fitting, so thanks for the tip about that.

[This message has been edited by Quad Raider (edited 07-18-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #100, 07-22-2012 06:27 AM
      I haven't done much on the quad lately, I have been playing with my new brake booster equiment

I did get back to it today, and did some work on the head.
The surface needed cleaning bad, the old gasket was stuck on pretty good.






It took awhile being an aluminum head I didn't want to scratch it, so I had to figure out what would work and not scratch it.
I used rubbing alcohol and a scothbrite pad, and ALOT of elbow grease later, it came out pretty clean.





sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #101, 07-24-2012 09:28 PM
      I Lapped in the valves to get a good seal.
I used lapping compound and a hand lapping tool. Wich is basicly a stick with suctions cups on it.




I added a little oil to the stem so it spins freely.




Then you add lapping compound the the valve where it touches the seat and use the tool to spins the valve tapping it up and down as you go.
there are a lot of how tos on lapping online so I won't get too into it.




The lapped valves on the left, not yet lapped on the right. You can see the gray ring around where they got grinded together.




The lapped exhaust valve seats on the left, non lapped on the right.




Before.




After.





sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #102, 07-25-2012 10:02 AM
      To install the valve seals put on the valve rotator (bearing) and then use a deep scocket to pound on the valve seals.




The exhaust valve seals on.




All the valve seals on.




With the valves in the head, I lubed up the valve stems with assambly lube.






The head reassembled.









Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #103, 07-25-2012 01:39 PM
      These photos are awesome. I'll be referencing them when I rebuild my engine, hopefully this fall. Are you using a standard valve spring compressor?

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #104, 07-25-2012 08:13 PM
      I used the big C clamp style.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #105, 07-27-2012 07:29 PM
      Here are the cams.

This is the power steering pully.






What a pain to get this off. I used a big 3 claw puller and had to brace it with a huge pipe and a cheater bar on the wrench. I put a bolt into the cam to brace the puller on, BTW this bolt is SAE not metric. This pulley will not be going back on.






To seperate the cam housing cover, there are bolt holes used to pry the cover apart.








The intake cam, in the housing. Notice the lack of cam bearings, the quad is machined so well it doesn't need them and the cams ride in the housings.
BTW on the gaskets, blue is intake and red is exhaust.






The cams, still dirty, I havent cleaned them yet.




My head casting, notice the E, it shows that this is a replacement casting and should be stronger in the right areas.




Now that the cams are out of the housings, time for paint.










I put in some studs for the cams housings to slide over so they wouldn't fall off. I could have painted it all seprate but I was sick of taping and decided to paint it all at once.




With fresh wet paint.








Now that the parts are painted, time to assemble it all..........



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #106, 07-29-2012 08:39 PM
      Here is the block ready for parts. The pistons are down half way as when you put the cams on you dont want the valves to hit the pistons.




Turn the crank to either 3 oclock or 9 oclock




With the head on.






The lower cam cover, after I cleaned the gasket sealing surface I taped it off, so any oil that drips on it comes right off with the tape and no need to reclean it all.




The exhaust cam with assembly lube.




The exhaust cam in, with the red gaskets.




Make sure the peg on the cam is at the 12 oclock position.




The bolts I used from Fierobsessed so I can easly put on the IDI cover in the reverse direction. They look like small bolts put on top of other bolts and welded on.




Make sure you use 'Locktite pipe thread sealent with teflon' or 'Permatex #14' on the cam cover bolts. The reason for useing it is it stops any loosening of the bolts from heat cycles or vibration, as this is a high vibration engine.




I stored the lifters/tappets the wrong direction so the oil drained out, they should be stored bottom side up as seen in the next pic.




You can see the oil hole in the side of the tappet above, since they drained out I put them in a thing of oil and pumped the button in the middle untill no more air bubbles came out the hole.




The intake cam and tappets.




The cam housing.




The intake cam on, with the blue intake cam gaskets.




Again make sure the cam peg is at 12 oclock.




The cam covers on.






Now to get the water pump bearing and gear in. I used a big socket to drive in the bearing
Use locktite red on the outside of the bearing.




I used a smaller socket in the big socket to support the inner bearing race as I drove in the gear, make sure the hole in the center of the gear is clean as it feeds oil through it.




To keep track of where the studs went on the timing cover housing I dotted them with a sharpie.




More to come....

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 07-29-2012).]

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #107, 07-30-2012 12:49 PM
      Have you ever considered using studs instead of head bolts or cam cover bolts? When I installed a re-manufactured head four years ago, some of the upper threads in the cam cover bolt holes were bad. I ended up having to make my own studs to reach the good ones. I see from your photos that I could just make four longer studs in order to turn the IDI cover around.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #108, 07-30-2012 03:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Have you ever considered using studs instead of head bolts or cam cover bolts? When I installed a re-manufactured head four years ago, some of the upper threads in the cam cover bolt holes were bad. I ended up having to make my own studs to reach the good ones. I see from your photos that I could just make four longer studs in order to turn the IDI cover around.


I have spent sooo much time getting rid of the studs the PO put in this engine, it was hell. studs on the cam covers suck as when you 'unbolt' the cam covers you can tip them sideways and all the tappets/lifters stay in the cam covers, that does not work with studs, you go to pull it off the studs and they all want to just fall out. Luckly I only had a couple fall out, before I stopped pulling up on one of the cam covers and it took two people, a magnet, and alot of time to get them out and keep them in order.

BTW as I was looking at it last night, for the IDI cover to fit with the bolts I used the holes in the cover have to be slotted and the bottom of the cover ground away a bit to make up for the bolt head thickness for it to sit flush where it is suppoed to sit.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #109, 07-30-2012 03:44 PM
      The Q4 looks like a '30's Indy engine if you polish the cam towers & covers....

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-30-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #110, 07-31-2012 08:30 PM
      The timing cover gaskets on, on the cam gaskets felpro has both as the same gasket, in both gaskets sets. it works but the silicone imprint is on the wrong side for one side.




The timing cover housing on. The flash made a cool pic. I used a rag at the bottom to help hold the chain from falling off. To take out the chain slack follow the vids on the bottom of page 2




When I put in the waterpump gear it pushed the bearing back a little. It should be like the pic below.




To fix it I did this.




The tensioner assembled and locked, again follow the vids.




Timing chain put in, tensioner put in and all slack gone.




With the new gaskets and all the timing chain shoes put in.




The cover on.




Fierobsessed stopped by and said I should prob check out his old oil pump, Glad I listened, it is all scratched up.






With the new pump on.




Then the oil pan wouldn't fit
I found the pickup support was just a tad bit different. (the left side is a little longer)




New support on.




Now the pan fits.




As it sits...



[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 07-31-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #111, 08-01-2012 08:07 PM
      Make sure to lube up the splines on the water pump with wheel bearing grease.




I spent alot of time cleaning and going through bolts, since I had 3 engines worth and one set I couldn't use.
I decided to get some pics to help people out finding some of the bolts they need. A bit excessive I know, but it may help someone in the future.










The water pump on and the engine mounts. the shiny spots are the flash, it is black all the way.



[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 08-01-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #112, 08-02-2012 07:40 AM
      The intake, oil fill tube and MAP sensor on, the flash makes it look dirty and weird, but trust me it is all Gloss Black.




The lower intake manifold support bracket that Fierobsessed was missing. (Could be just differences in years, but I added all I had from all the diff engines I had to work with)




The oil pickup tube and crank sensor.




Were the oil pan studs go for the exhaust manifold support.




Another bracket that was missing.




The knock sensor (torqued to 15lbs) and the ECM temp sensor (replaced the stock heater hose location)




I sanded off the paint where the alternator goes to ensure a good ground, top and bottom of pic.




The alt and A/C on with the belt






I was making good progress untill a scorpion walked by and I stomped him, at that point I figured I was good for the night.
The Joy of living in a desert.


BTW questions and/or coments are always welcome.


Carcenomy MSG #113, 08-02-2012 07:49 AM
      My only question is what made you want to paint your engine black? I bet it looks nice but it'd make spotting leaks a nightmare!

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #114, 08-02-2012 06:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:

My only question is what made you want to paint your engine black? I bet it looks nice but it'd make spotting leaks a nightmare!


The Fiero it is going into is black, polishing takes time and I allready have alot of polished parts in my GT.
And I want it to fade into the engine bay.

As far as leaks, even if the engine gets dirty as hell, it will still look good.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #115, 08-02-2012 06:04 PM
      You live in Nevada and black shows dust like crazy.

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #116, 08-03-2012 01:26 PM
      I think the black looks great. And I love all the photos.

Did you get the IDI cover to fit facing the other direction?

[This message has been edited by Quad Raider (edited 08-03-2012).]

weaselbeak (dynamic_88@hotmail.com) MSG #117, 08-03-2012 01:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:

My only question is what made you want to paint your engine black? I bet it looks nice but it'd make spotting leaks a nightmare!



With his attention to detail, I doubt there will ever be a leak.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #118, 08-05-2012 09:32 PM
      The IDI cover I am useing is from Fierobsessed's swap. It is allready moded for the studs. I will get pics of the mods when I can/get to that point.


Here are a couple of the brackets that were missing/ or just from the other engine.




And where they go and bolt up. (Behind the Alt and A/C)








The exhaust manifold painted in 1200deg paint.




With the heat sheild on.




The lower heat sheild on with the lower heat sheild bracket.




The front engine lift bracket. This was wierd the block it came off of had smaller holes for the bracket, to the point I had to drill out the bracket and find new bolts to fit it.
It goes to show there are small differences in blocks.

The bracket and the bolts I had to use. (they are from the lower front motor mount bolt for 2 Fiero V6s)




The bracket on. Almost done with the engine build, Just a few more mods.




I also found that the transmission from the second Quad I pulled apart has the 3.61 gears, perfect for MPG. Now I don't have to combine two to make one. It even has the stronger Diff in it allready, So I am good to go with that. (Providing it is a good transmission)



Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #119, 08-05-2012 09:57 PM
      That block is a 1993 SOHC block. It has a stronger front triangular brace on it because it was intended to have an entire engine mount there, It also had a cylinder deck with round holes when compared to the teardrop holes of the older block, which tended to crack sometimes. I had a cracked 91 block, so I got ahold of a SOHC motor, knowing that it was of a newer and stronger design block, even though the head was absolute JUNK!

This is why we mix match quads. The best parts never really came in just one engine. The 91 H.O. does have most of the best parts.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #120, 08-06-2012 08:18 AM
      I don't even know all the years and/or Quads this is from.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 08-06-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #121, 08-06-2012 08:19 AM
      My transmission painted hanging from an engine hoist.





[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 08-06-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #122, 08-07-2012 05:36 PM
      Here is the cradle, painted and hanging from an engine hoist.









Reallybig MSG #123, 08-08-2012 12:45 AM
      Wow! That is going to be one dark engine bay!

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #124, 08-08-2012 08:57 AM
      Well since I did the whole swap at night, it's fitting

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #125, 08-08-2012 09:28 AM
      Do you ever sleep?

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #126, 08-08-2012 05:08 PM
      Yeah! try getting ahold of him at 2:00 PM! Good Luck!

It's a Vegas thing. It's how we avoid the oppressive heat. Imagine working in a steel building when its 112 outside.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #127, 08-08-2012 05:11 PM
      I lived in Phoenix for five years so I know what you mean. It hasn't been much better this summer in Oklahoma.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #128, 08-10-2012 10:53 PM
      I will have to put this swap off untill Sept. I have vacation coming up and I need to focus on that.
When I get back I think I have about 5 days left untill it is in the Fiero and running.
I still have the wiring harness, exhaust, some painting and polishing on the IDI cover, and misc mods to the Fiero.




Carcenomy MSG #129, 08-11-2012 09:56 AM
      With the pace you've been keeping, I don't give too many bollocks just get that Quad in the hole!

Have a fun vacation, wish you weren't the only one who got holidays, my T-top could use the time. But since you are the only one, have a good time and I look forward to seeing the finished product!


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #130, 08-11-2012 02:17 PM
      Yes, have a great vacation. I look forward to seeing more of your excellent photos and instructions.

BMTFIERO (bmtfiero@outlook.com) MSG #131, 09-12-2012 12:35 AM
      a "whats going on" bump

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #132, 09-12-2012 01:22 AM
      I'm back from vacation, trying to recoop from vacation, and remembering where I was at in this swap.

Carcenomy MSG #133, 09-12-2012 01:39 AM
      You were painting lots of stuff.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #134, 09-13-2012 04:24 PM
      I did check the gears in the trans and counted the rotations and figured out what gears I have.

I have the
1991
1st 3.77
2nd 2.19
3rd 1.38
4th 1.03
5th 0.81
Axle 3.61

With these gears it is about the same as the 3.94FDR for 1st, 2nd and 5th and gives me better MPG for 3rd and 4th.
So it should still be quick off the line and good MPG at cruise.
And a max trans speed of about 190MPH @ 7400RPM, not that I have any intention of ever going that fast.


Here are all the trans ratios for the Quad4.

Quad 4 Getrag
1989
1st...3.50
2nd...2.19
3rd...1.38
4th...1.03
5th...0.72
FDR...3.61

1990
1st 3.50
2nd 2.19
3rd 1.38
4th 1.03
5th 0.81
Axle 3.61

1991
1st 3.77
2nd 2.19
3rd 1.38
4th 1.03
5th 0.81
Axle 3.61

1992-1994
1st 3.50
2nd 2.05
3rd 1.38
4th 1.03
5th 0.72
Axle 3.94

1991-1993W41
1st 3.50
2nd 2.05
3rd 1.38
4th 1.03
5th 0.81
Axle 3.94

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 09-13-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #135, 09-16-2012 07:02 AM
      It has been slow getting back into this swap. I have been doing misc work on the IDI cover, and on the wire harness. But to do any more on the harness I need the engine on the cradle so I can see how much length of wire(s) I need. So today I did some work on the transmission so I could get it all bolted together.


I started with hitting the flywheel and pressure plate with the DA sander to freshen up the finish and knock all the crap off the surface.




And mounted to the engine.




Next I found that the fork that moves the release bearing did not move as per my liking. It had few catches as it moved back and forth, then found one of the forks was a bit bent. (This is the trans that had the broke clutch, not sure if it matters) but I decided to swap out the fork as I had others.

The top bearing did not come out too well.




It should look like this. Another great thing from the Quad 4 line, it uses needle bearings instead of the bronze one like Fiero Getrags do.




The bottom one also has needle bearings too.




I wanted to get out the old grease and rust from the bearings, so I used some rubbing alcohol and let it sit and kept flushing it out untill it was clean.




The fork I installed.




All together.




The transmission bolted to the engine.






The Quad has a bellhousing thats bolts to the oil pan for extra support, it uses spacers to connect it to the pan.






The cradle all waiting for the engine and transmission.




And the engine and transmission mounted to the cradle.











Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #136, 09-16-2012 12:32 PM
      Looks great.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #137, 09-18-2012 06:24 AM
      Here is the dust/dirt sheild that goes in between the engine and transmission.
(Well half of it, it has two peices to it)




And where it goes, the other peice goes on the other side. (not shown)




Fierobsessed stopped by and dropped of some shift brackets for me.




I have also been doing work on the IDI cover and wiring, I will post pics of the IDI when it is done, pics right now just don't do it justice.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #138, 09-30-2012 05:34 PM
      I haven't had too much time to work on this. I have been busy fixing other club members Fieros.

I did get the IDI cover all preped and taped off waiting for paint. This took a LONG time to tape off and dulled 3 razor blades in the process.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #139, 10-02-2012 05:23 AM
      I had/got to fix another club member's Fiero, so again not much done today.

But I did get the IDI cover painted. I will pull the tape off tomorrow and see how good it really looks.
Now it's just all black.





sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #140, 10-03-2012 08:28 AM
      How it looks all polished out and painted





Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #141, 10-03-2012 09:42 AM
      Looks fantastic. What kind of paint did you use and did you clear coat it?

[This message has been edited by Quad Raider (edited 10-03-2012).]

stickboy MSG #142, 10-03-2012 12:20 PM
      Looks great!

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #143, 10-03-2012 06:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Looks fantastic. What kind of paint did you use and did you clear coat it?



The same paint I used on the engine, rustoleum engine enamel gloss black.
I did not clear coat it as clear dulls the polish and can yellow over time.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #144, 10-03-2012 06:54 PM
      Here are some more pics of how the IDI was modded to fit.


4 of the cam cover bolts had studs welded to the top of them.




To fit the studs the holes on the IDI cover had to be ovaled a bit. Then underneath the cover where the bolts go through it had to be ground down to accommodate the thickness of the bolt heads. And the post that sticks up was cut off.




I sanded flat the half ring to give a better contact area for heat transfer from the ICM module that is now on this side of the cover. I will add a spacer between the coil pack and the ICM to hold it against the cover to transfer heat.




The IDI cover is now done and ready to get the coil pack and go in.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #145, 10-07-2012 06:40 AM
      I have been working on the fuel lines.

First some pics of the stock fuel rail.






Dissambled.






The fuel rail has quite the capacity.




The standard fuel pressure regulator.




But, I found this one on the Quad 4 I stripped years ago.
It has a schrader valve, Bonus.




The fuel rail it was on.






Since I don't want the lines comming out in the stock location, I had to get a new line and bend it to where I want.
I pulled this off of a K5 blazer, but most GM lines should work as they are mostly all the same size.




The end has to have a flare on it like the stock line.
Stock on top, new one on the bottom.



The flare is a little smaller, so the o-ring may come off, but I will adress that later.


I found useing a tube bender to bend line, the line can pull and slip then kink.
So I used a flaring tool to hold the line against the bender and it worked great, I also used some WD-40 on the bender so it all would slide easy.






I got the fuel lines to come out where the stock non 84 lines run. (84s run on the other side of the engine)




And this is where my camera battery died. I will get more pics later of the lines.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 10-07-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #146, 10-08-2012 09:06 AM
      With the tube with the smaller flare, the perfect solution presented itself.
The fuel rail that has the schrader valve, uses a hard plastic o-ring like spacer behind the o-ring. So the flare catches it nicely and holds in the o-ring, problem solved.




How the fuel lines came out.




To join the Fiero lines to the Quad4 lines I used compression fittings, like so and the sizes.




The final placement of the lines.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 10-08-2012).]

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #147, 10-08-2012 01:26 PM
      Very nice work. Where did you get those fittings?

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #148, 10-08-2012 05:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Very nice work. Where did you get those fittings?


They have them on the shelf at Autozone for cheap. You can also get the at Lowe's or Home Depot, for 4 times the price.


34blazer660 (blazer660@yahoo.com) MSG #149, 10-08-2012 11:12 PM
      id like to check it out once you get it on the road, nice work

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #150, 10-09-2012 06:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 34blazer660:

id like to check it out once you get it on the road, nice work


Of course you can check it out, before and/or after it is all running.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #151, 10-27-2012 06:05 PM
      I had to make sure the fuel injectors worked and were flow matched to each other.
So I hooked up the fuel rail to our injector tester. It has a fuel pump with filter, return line, and injector connector on a switch.










I ran gas and injector cleaner through the injectors, they were pretty cloged to start.
I ran it through untill I got a good flow out of them.




Since I had it all hooked up, I decided to leave it all like this, when I went camping for a week. I wanted to make sure all the gummed up residue was cleaned out.
Thus the lack of updates to this thread for a bit.
When I got back I tested the fuel pressure regulator. I used a pressure gauge and a vacume pump.








I then weighed the output of each injector, to make sure they all flowed the same.




So far so good.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #152, 11-04-2012 12:43 AM
      Here is what I did for the ICM to help it fit on the backwards cover.

First of all I got a nice black IDI, instead of the other 5 white ones I have.




I added heat sink grease to the IDI cover where the ICM makes contact with it.




Then I made a spacer to hold the ICM to the IDI cover. I used a piece of conveyor belt wrapped in 3 layers of rubber from an old tube, glued all together.








It slides in between the coil cover and the ICM to hold it tight against the IDI cover.




With it in place.






I have been really busy lately and not enough time to work on it. I have been working on the harness when I find some time.
I've had to remove all the 84 stuff, convert it to an 87, fix some things in the harness, upgrade some wires to what I want, and add a fuel pump hot wire kit.


Carcenomy MSG #153, 11-05-2012 12:00 AM
      Every time I open this thread and see a picture of a transmission it makes me sad.

Then I scroll down and see progress. Then I'm happy again. Looking good man.



Reallybig MSG #154, 11-05-2012 03:26 AM
      Great work! Now let's get to page 5.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #155, 11-06-2012 12:36 AM
      I got the wiring harness all soldered up last night. I still have to put loom on it and tape it all up.
I will get pics tomorrow.
I was able to add a fuel pump hotwire kit(so to speak) into the harness. Now I have a good gauge wire feeding the fuel pump relay off of a fused connection by the battery. Doing so I was able to eliminate about 16 ft of small gauge wire, and now I have an extra fused ign wire at the C203 if I ever want to add something in the cab. I still want need to figure out a good cable system for the alt and battery. I want/need good power system in this Fiero for the stereo/amps. I allready have a 4 gauge going to my amps from the battery and a huge ground strap, but the alt wire needs more. (the one in my GT allready gets hot just at idle, I need to upgrade that one too)


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #156, 11-06-2012 12:59 AM
      Here is the ECM wiring diagram I used for the harness. This one is for 89-91, my ECM is from a 91'

http://www.kolumbus.fi/jani...wiring%20diagram.pdf


The other years can be found from the same place about half way down the page(don't worry about reading the page)

http://www.kolumbus.fi/jani.makynen/page3.html


For the C500 and C203 pinouts I used the 87 Servive Manual.
That and some other years can be found at Fieronews.net (and alot of other good Fiero downloads)
http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/downloads.php



Reallybig MSG #157, 11-06-2012 01:34 AM
      Oops.

[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 11-06-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #158, 11-09-2012 02:17 AM
      Here is the start of the harness.






I labeled each wire to where it goes as I unpinned the 84 C500
And I measured a piece of wood and clamped it to the cradle dolly and marked it where the C500 is and screwed on a stock power block.






Where I put the grounds.




Almost ready for loom, I have to shorten about a half a dozen wires.


.
.
.
.


Then I got distracted by the Thunderbirds practicing over the shop today, for the upcoming air show, so I got a few pics.
We see this almost everyday over the shop/club here, I know not Fiero related, but I thought I would share.






Four in tight formation.




All six.




This one was coming in like for a landing but nose pointed up and instead of landing, he took off again. coming in real slow sideways.




And this was is a little blury but he was going straight up.



The air show this weekend should be great. Nothing like working on a Fiero with a dog fight over your head.


ericjon262 MSG #159, 11-09-2012 02:23 AM
      I get to see the Blue Angels all the time here in Pensacola. pretty cool to think they don't where G suits like those chair force guys :P



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #160, 11-09-2012 03:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Reallybig:

Great work! Now let's get to page 5.


OK


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #161, 11-09-2012 03:02 AM
      Page 5

34blazer660 (blazer660@yahoo.com) MSG #162, 11-09-2012 03:10 AM
      i was out in my garage and they buzzed the house like 4 times, afterburners and all. a couple of B1B's were practicing as well. openhouse at nellis this weekend, its going to suck because i switch to midnights tommorrow, bleh.

[This message has been edited by 34blazer660 (edited 11-09-2012).]

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #163, 11-09-2012 11:10 AM
      Love the Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels. Saw the T-birds at McConnell back in September.

I have a stupid question about the wiring harness process. How exactly did you shorten/pin it for the Fiero? Did you attach it to the Quad, then one by one, by using the diagram, attach each wire to the Fiero plug, then go back and shorten each wire as needed?



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #164, 11-09-2012 04:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Love the Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels. Saw the T-birds at McConnell back in September.

I have a stupid question about the wiring harness process. How exactly did you shorten/pin it for the Fiero? Did you attach it to the Quad, then one by one, by using the diagram, attach each wire to the Fiero plug, then go back and shorten each wire as needed?



Pretty much, and /or reverse that. IE: from the plug to the harness. I tied in the C500 and the C203 to the harness. I had to unpin the 84 C500 and remove all that was not needed and add the 87 stuff. I think mainly I went from the plug and ran the plug wires to the harness. It isn't too bad, you look at the pinout for the C500 and see alt goes to the alt, coil power goes to the IDI pack, etc... once you get past being overwhelmed, it is not too hard.

The jets are practicing again today, this weekend should be great.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #165, 11-09-2012 04:54 PM
     
 
quote
once you get past being overwhelmed, it is not too hard.


That's exactly how I'm feeling. The harness is the only part of this swap that has me concerned. Fabricating engine mounts, relocating the battery, re-upholstering the headliner, all that stuff doesn't phase me a bit, but that harness is intimidating. Really appreciate you posting all the photos and descriptions as you go.


Carcenomy MSG #166, 11-10-2012 04:15 AM
      With harnesses just take your time. They look super intimidating initially but really it's all just a slow, methodical process. Don't rush it, and if you're making any executive decisions on how things are wired, document them so you don't have dramas later if repairs are needed.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #167, 11-12-2012 12:00 AM
      A few more pics of the air show this weekend, then on to the Quad 4 stuff.






And just to show how close they get to our shop. (the silver building)






Now on to the Quad 4 stuff,
I got my A/C worked out today, I pressure tested the compressor.
My friend Dave made me this nice tester.






It hooks to an air compressor and then you can just dunk the whole thing in water.





No Leaks!


On the 91' Quad 4 ECM it needs a A/C pressure sensor instead of hi/low switches, so one had to be added.
Here is the part and part number. BTW it can be bought at O'Rilleys for about $16








It has to go on the high side, the small line.
This is where I put mine.




The new part has to be crimped on, luckly my friend has a crimper.




The piece crimped on in place.






I also got all my wires shortened in the harness, just needs loom and then that's done too.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 11-12-2012).]

Fierostarvin MSG #168, 11-12-2012 09:48 AM
      Does the pressure sensor screw onto the schrader fitting?

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #169, 11-12-2012 06:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierostarvin:

Does the pressure sensor screw onto the schrader fitting?


Yeah it just screws on to the fitting, if you have an 84' you don't need this as the high side schrader is allready in the engine compartment.


hercimer01 MSG #170, 11-13-2012 01:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:







I want one! Got a source?


fieroguru MSG #171, 11-13-2012 02:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:

I want one! Got a source?


This looks like it:
http://www.yogisinc.com/ind...de=prod/prd10625.htm


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #172, 11-14-2012 08:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:


I want one! Got a source?


I have a great source, my friend Dave, he has one.


 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

This looks like it:
http://www.yogisinc.com/ind...de=prod/prd10625.htm


That looks like one. Not really worth it unless you have to make alot of lines. I can get custom hoses made in town for around $90-$100ish.
Otherwise you have to buy a crimper, ends, connections, hoses, etc. It adds up real fast.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #173, 11-14-2012 02:33 PM
      FYI, For A/C lines you can not use the Fiero V6 lines as they will get in the way of the oil filter, you need 87-88 4 cyl lines.
The 4 cyl lines move the line away from the oil filter allowing you to be able to change the filter.
The line shown above is from a 87'.

Edit to add, The V5 compressor swaps the suction and discharge ports so you need the 87-88 4 cyl line as they do that allready in the line.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 06-05-2014).]

Widow Maker MSG #174, 11-16-2012 03:52 PM
      Hey,

Just wanted to say thanks for putting up all the pictures in your build. I tore my 95 Grand Am apart and wasn't sure if I would bother putting it back together. Your pictures are great for remembering where everything goes (especially the bracketry).

Thanks, and good luck with the rest of it!

As for me, I wasn't looking for any great power change and am experimenting with putting a 96 2.4 engine in as a replacement.


ericjon262 MSG #175, 11-25-2012 11:20 PM
      alright now slacker... back to work! we need updates!



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #176, 11-26-2012 05:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

alright now slacker... back to work! we need updates!



I was out of town for a bit. I have been working out the exhaust and what I need for it.
The cradle was cut out for the exhaust it has now, but where it was notched it took out one side of a stock muffler spring mount.
So I can't use a stock style muffler, but I have an idea.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 11-26-2012).]

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #177, 11-27-2012 01:09 PM
      Now that my Beretta has gone to that big parking lot in the sky, I've finally started disassembling its Quad. Here's one of the problems I found, four bent valves:



The timing belt tensioner shoe broke, allowing the tensioner piston to push the belt farther than it was designed to go, which wore the teeth on the intake cam gear, which then allowed the valves to hit the pistons.

I'll be referring to this thread a lot as I put the engine back together.

[This message has been edited by Quad Raider (edited 11-28-2012).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #178, 11-28-2012 03:33 AM
      That is alot of damage. Good luck on the rebuild.

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #179, 11-29-2012 09:50 AM
      Did you use new rings, main and rod bearings, or did you reuse the old ones? If you reused the old ones, how did you know that they had life left in them?

The bottom end of my engine seems to be in good shape. I haven't disassembled the crank, etc. yet, but the cylinder walls are perfectly smooth. I've discovered that this is a replacement engine so it doesn't have the full 242,000 miles that the donor car had, but I know it has well over 100,000, since that's how many miles I put on it since I installed a new head gasket 4 years ago when it was given to me. The engine never smoked and didn't use any oil.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #180, 11-29-2012 09:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Did you use new rings, main and rod bearings, or did you reuse the old ones? If you reused the old ones, how did you know that they had life left in them?

The bottom end of my engine seems to be in good shape. I haven't disassembled the crank, etc. yet, but the cylinder walls are perfectly smooth. I've discovered that this is a replacement engine so it doesn't have the full 242,000 miles that the donor car had, but I know it has well over 100,000, since that's how many miles I put on it since I installed a new head gasket 4 years ago when it was given to me. The engine never smoked and didn't use any oil.


I reused the old rings and bearings, this is suposed to be a low cost swap.
The bearings you can tell if one of the layers of metal is wiped out or on its way, or if there are nicks or gouges in them.
The block on mine had no ridge on it and you can still see the cross hatch, The P/O did not say it smoked or anything like that. And I didn't see anything physically wrong with the rings.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #181, 11-30-2012 01:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

this is suposed to be a low cost swap.


Man, I hear you. Same here. I'm doing my swap as economically as possible, while making it as dependable and professional as possible. I guess that's what makes it such a challenge. And is also what will make it so satisfying if I pull it off.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #182, 12-08-2012 02:24 AM
      More pics


Here is the new shift bracket, I had to drill a new hole as the holes on the quad are closer together than the Fiero Getrag.




And where it goes. Still needs to be painted.




Parts left to paint.




The coolent line. Here is the one Fierobsessed used on the 84'.




Here is the one I am useing.






I had to bend it a bit to fit where I want it, under the hump in the cradle.
To make sure I didn't crack the pipe bending it, I made up a tester, I used an old inner tube and hose clamped it to the end and pressure tested it by dipping it in water after being pressurized. BTW you can use this method to test radiators.






No leaks.





Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #183, 12-08-2012 02:58 PM
      That leak tester is genius.

Where did you get that shift bracket? I'd like to make one like it.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #184, 12-08-2012 10:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

That leak tester is genius.


It is a trick to test radiators.

 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Where did you get that shift bracket? I'd like to make one like it.


Fierobsessed just handed it to me, I know not much help, but that is where I got it.


Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #185, 12-09-2012 05:12 AM
      Info on that bracket:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...111-2-091336.html#p3


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #186, 12-09-2012 02:24 PM
      Ah, it's a Rodney Dickman shift bracket. I may have to just buy one, but I'd much rather fab my own.

I have some questions about cleaning the engine and internal parts.

What's the best way to clean the carbon off the pistons?

I pressure washed my block, too. Should I take any extra precautions to make sure I've gotten all the water out of it? I blew it out with compressed air.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #187, 12-09-2012 11:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

What's the best way to clean the carbon off the pistons?

I pressure washed my block, too. Should I take any extra precautions to make sure I've gotten all the water out of it? I blew it out with compressed air.


To clean off carbon from the pistons I use a wire wheel,(brass is preferred) I know everyone is going OMG, but it works and doesn't damage or even scratch the piston. And I have done hundreds of pistons. To get the carbon out of the ring groves, use an old broken ring, if you have one, or a small screwdriver or pick, be care not to scratch it, you only want to get the bulk of the carbon out, then wire wheel. then rubbing alc. and brake cleaner to get it all nice and shiny.

Compressed air in every hole is how to do it. (To get the water out of the block)


ericjon262 MSG #188, 12-09-2012 11:51 PM
      mineral spirits has worked well for me on oil sludge, I imagine it would work well on carbon build up too.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #189, 12-10-2012 09:11 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

To get the carbon out of the ring groves, use an old broken ring, if you have one, or a small screwdriver or pick,


*DO NOT* do this. The risk of scoring the top or bottom surfaces of the groove is just too great. *ANY* scoring in the groove comprompises ring seal and thereby power.

Carb cleaner (NOT the same as brake cleaner) will take the carbon off of pistons... just turn the pistons upside down and let them soak for a few days. Once the majority of the carbon has been removed (the originally yellow carb cleaner will turn darker) and use a nylon bristle brush to get any that may be left out of the grooves.

Results:


Yes, these have been coated, but the grooves were masked during the coating process, so the cleanliness of the grooves is my work.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-10-2012).]

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #190, 12-10-2012 02:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Carb cleaner (NOT the same as brake cleaner) will take the carbon off of pistons... just turn the pistons upside down and let them soak for a few days. Once the majority of the carbon has been removed (the originally yellow carb cleaner will turn darker) and use a nylon bristle brush to get any that may be left out of the grooves.


That's some really good stuff, comes in a gallon can with a dip tray from advance or autozone, it'll make old parts look like new it does such a good job of disolving carbon build up. It's on the expensive side though if you don't need to use that much.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #191, 12-10-2012 02:24 PM
      Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Now back to Sardonyx's build.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #192, 12-10-2012 04:08 PM
      On the throttle body adapter I found alot of corrosion that had to be taken care of.
Looks like even the air from back east will even eat aluminum. I'm glad I live in the rust free part of America.




After alot of sanding, I used the disk part of my belt/disk sander, I got it smooth again.
I finished it all the way up to 320 grit, should be leak free.






There are lots of little details I am finishing up, just about ready to go.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 12-10-2012).]

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #193, 12-13-2012 04:18 AM
      oooh pretty! I see you even managed to smooth out the marks from all the manual milling.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #194, 12-13-2012 03:22 PM
      I wondered if you would notice that.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #195, 12-28-2012 04:30 PM
      Now that the holidaze are over, time to get back to this.

ericjon262 MSG #196, 12-28-2012 06:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

Now that the holidaze are over, time to get back to this.


I didn't say you could have the holidaze off... YOU'RE FIRED!


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #197, 12-29-2012 07:18 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


I didn't say you could have the holidaze off... YOU'RE FIRED!


So, if I'm fired, does that mean I don't have to post any more pics .?.?


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #198, 12-31-2012 03:02 AM
      Well I am going to post more anyway.

Here is the 3.4L DOHC throttle body taken apart for paint and cleaning.




You can see here the throttle body has bearings for the shaft, what a nice TB.




Here it is all clean and painted.




The rest of the parts I had to paint.






On to the exhaust, still in progress.
I used a magnet under the cat to help hold it in place and to space it away from the cradle.
Then blocks of wood to hold it up and steady.






I used thick paper to get the angle just right, I got the paper from the gasket kit, usally used to seperate the head gasket and the rest of the gaskets.




The rubber band is to get the angle right and then I used a pencil to trace around the rubber band.




The piece cut and fitted.




The piece welded up and the bottom angle too.




I needed a piece to act as a slip joint so I can adjust the tip up , down, side to side, after it is in the Fiero.
I tried getting a coupler at Autozone but it was a bit too big, so I got a piece of pipe and used a tail pipe expander, bought at Harbor Freight for $15, to open it up so the other pipe can slip in and slide around.
Here one side is welded to the bend.




I still have to get the length right for the tip, I might wait untill it is in the Fiero, this exhaust is so easy to take off and drop out it should be no big deal.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #199, 12-31-2012 09:39 AM
      Very nice work. Are you concerned that it might be too loud?

ericjon262 MSG #200, 12-31-2012 10:33 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:


So, if I'm fired, does that mean I don't have to post any more pics .?.?


I guess I'll let it slide this time...



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #201, 12-31-2012 04:08 PM
      I figured I would start page 6 with a good pic.




 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Very nice work. Are you concerned that it might be too loud?


I do have a muffling/resonater tip I am putting on. (Same brand as used on Ferrari's and Lambo's stock)

Here are my thoughts on it,
When Fierobsessed had it in his Indy he did not have any kind of muffler, his was loud.
My Turbo 3.4 GT has no muffler and just the tips, it is not too loud, loud yes but not too bad, much quieter than no tips.
My friends 4.9 has just the tips too, and his is not too bad either.
When Fierobsessed notched the cradle for his exhaust he took out one of the mounting points for a stock style muffler, so that was out too.
I want the best MPG I can get out of it, so straight through it is.
And being able to drown out the hon-duh fart can or vette next to me is just pricless.

I wouldn't mind quite, but it is what it is and if I find it being too much I can always do something else on it.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 01-08-2013).]

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #202, 01-02-2013 09:37 AM
      My Beretta had a completely worn out catalytic converter, so it was pretty much a straight pipe with a cheap muffler with a splitter at the end. It was louder than most cars but not annoyingly so. If I ever get to that point, my plan is to run the down pipe from the manifold toward the passenger side, then do a 180-degree bend back to the muffler in the stock location.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #203, 01-02-2013 11:52 AM
      I have duals, X-pipe and cats on my Northstar--which is basically two Q4's--and it's not bad... not quiet but not nearly as loud as it was with the straight pipes.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-02-2013).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #204, 01-03-2013 06:34 AM
      Depending on how it all comes together I may just start it up with out the tip, just to see how loud it is.
But even then it won't be as loud at idle as it will be at 7400 RPM.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #205, 01-04-2013 02:45 AM
      Here is the fuel rail bolted on. I used new o-rings on the injectors (They came with the gasket set)




Some of the shift brackets.




For the side bracket the holes are there, but not tapped out, They have to be drilled out a little and then tapped.
Make sure to use a good quality tap, like Craftsman, the cheap Harbor Freight taps make the hole a bit bigger and then the bolts are loose.






The lower side bracket on.







Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #206, 01-06-2013 01:54 PM
      I'd just like to take a moment and thank you again for posting all these photos and tips. They're a tremendous help, since my swap is taking so much longer than I had planned and hoped.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #207, 01-08-2013 02:36 AM
      The thermostat gasket is cool, it has one side that is sticky so it sticks to the stat housing and makes a good seal. I still used RTV on the other side as I hate leaks.






Other parts bolted on.




I got new spark plugs for it (AC Delco) and gapped them to .035 I torqued them to the spaecs on the cam covers.
The IDI cover is bolted down and ready to go.
As is sits now.






Now I have to bring my car to the shop and pull the duke out and prep the Fiero for it's new powerplant.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 01-08-2013).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #208, 01-08-2013 02:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

I'd just like to take a moment and thank you again for posting all these photos and tips. They're a tremendous help, since my swap is taking so much longer than I had planned and hoped.


My swap is taking alot longer than I thought too. Thanks for the comments, I'm glad to know this all is helping out. I was hoping this thread would help anyone ever working with a Quad4 regardless if it is in a Fiero or not.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #209, 01-08-2013 12:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

The thermostat gasket is cool, it has one side that is sticky so it sticks to the stat housing and makes a good seal. I still used RTV on the other side as I hate leaks.



That's one of the issues I discovered when I disassembled my quad. In the winter my heater would only blow lukewarm air, so I figured my thermostat had slipped during installation allowing coolant to flow around it. Turns out I was right, but I also had a slow leak around the housing that I couldn't see with the engine in the car.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #210, 01-08-2013 02:14 PM
      I was thinking about it and if someone did not use the sticky part and just put it on it would end up leaking. Prob due to RTV holding the sticky backing to the housing and just coming off of the gasket. So make sure to peel off the backing and use the sticky part.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #211, 01-10-2013 11:13 PM
      I drove the Duke down to the shop, that thing is soooo gutless when it has a slipping clutch.
The engine is half way out, it got cold so I came home. (I know not cold as most of you are used to)


ericjon262 MSG #212, 01-11-2013 12:05 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

I drove the Duke down to the shop, that thing is soooo gutless when it has a slipping clutch.
The engine is half way out, it got cold so I came home. (I know not cold as most of you are used to)


only when it has a slipping clutch???


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #213, 01-11-2013 12:47 AM
      Oh, and when the A/C is on.
It does feel gutless, but sadly it is still faster than like 80% of the cars on the road.
Duke's do have 135TQ

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 01-11-2013).]

ericjon262 MSG #214, 01-19-2013 04:34 PM
      where are you hiding? we need more pictures!



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #215, 01-20-2013 01:13 PM
      I have been helping on a couple other projects and working alot this past week.
I have a bunch to do on the Fiero itself, not all related to the Quad Swap.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #216, 01-31-2013 01:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

where are you hiding? we need more pictures!



Here are some more pics.
I have been sick, progress is slow.

The Duke that the Quad is replacing, still in the Fiero.




The PO of this Fiero put in bigger cradle bolts that jamed in the bushings.
I took off the fender to get good access to the bolt, I took off the weight off the bolt, ( by jacking the car untill I saw the bolt move in the hole) then an air hammer made quick work of the bolts.




Now there is a hole.




When you lift the Fiero, make sure to use the built in "strut tower support".
With a chain it makes a great lift point.






Here are some side by side shots.








ericjon262 MSG #217, 01-31-2013 01:29 AM
      OOOH SHINY!



Carcenomy MSG #218, 01-31-2013 03:26 AM
      What are you doing with the Duke anyways? If you're prepared to ship I could sure use that air cleaner housing...

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #219, 01-31-2013 01:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Carcenomy:

What are you doing with the Duke anyways? If you're prepared to ship I could sure use that air cleaner housing...


If you need parts we have tons of parts and we ship too.
(PM me for parts requests as not to clutter this thread)

I don't know what to do with the duke yet, it is a good running engine.
I'm sure it will end up in some car/Fiero.


zkhennings MSG #220, 01-31-2013 03:07 PM
      How long do you think until she's running? Looks great. Can I ask what did you paint your cradle with?

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #221, 01-31-2013 11:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

How long do you think until she's running? Looks great. Can I ask what did you paint your cradle with?


Hopefully soon, still a few more days untill I can put it in. I painted the cradle with the same paint I used on the engine, 500deg gloss black.


An update;
I got the fuel pump swaped out today.

For those that don't know...The Quad 4 needs a 3Bar fuel pump, IE a Fiero V6 pump.
The duke uses a low psi pump like a 1Bar. So I had to swap pumps. Now I have a good fuel pump to go with the duke, where ever it ends up.



hercimer01 MSG #222, 02-01-2013 12:11 AM
      So now that you have that engine figured out, are you gonna introduce that engine to your line up of options for swaps? Me first! Nice work!



zkhennings MSG #223, 02-01-2013 03:38 AM
      Check the can because the high temperature paint I used on my engine doesn't fully cure until it is heated to like 200 degrees. Which I think wouldn't ever happen on the cradle. I learned this the hard way when I got a little brake parts cleaner on my newly painted engine and I had thought the paint was chemical resistant. Well it isn't until it's been heated, at least that's how mine was.

ericjon262 MSG #224, 02-11-2013 07:04 PM
      BUMP! is it running???



pprbart@cs.com (pprbart@cs.com) MSG #225, 02-11-2013 07:27 PM
      quad 4 is one of gm's biggest disasters of its many. The cylinder head warped twice and not from overheating. Its just a poor design. GM had many fail on proving grounds testing but the brass used its anyway. I had to finally sell the car as a restoration vehicle. the cam support is also below strength. I cracked several times. Another gm disaster. Why would you pick such a dog.

the_bandit MSG #226, 02-11-2013 10:14 PM
      I've heard very bad things about the quad 4 and you seem to be an expert with them. I have also heard that they are excellent engines... What is the verdict with them? There's an awesome fiero near me that has the quad 4 HO motor. It looks eccelent , but I don't want to buy it if its a crap motor. (Sorry for posting such an off topic reply)

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #227, 02-12-2013 12:02 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pprbart@cs.com:

quad 4 is one of gm's biggest disasters of its many. The cylinder head warped twice and not from overheating. Its just a poor design. GM had many fail on proving grounds testing but the brass used its anyway. I had to finally sell the car as a restoration vehicle. the cam support is also below strength. I cracked several times. Another gm disaster. Why would you pick such a dog.


Do you have a build thread? If you do I'd like to go in there and take a big ol' dump on it. How rude can you be? If you've paid any attention you would see that this engine has a butt load of cherry picked parts to make it the engine that the quad 4 was supposed to be. I can't believe how inconsiderate you are.


Silicoan86 (jcoan86@yahoo.com) MSG #228, 02-12-2013 12:50 AM
      Your swap is looking fantastic. I can't wait to see the end result. This is one swap that I'd love to do someday.

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #229, 02-12-2013 09:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:


Do you have a build thread? If you do I'd like to go in there and take a big ol' dump on it. How rude can you be? If you've paid any attention you would see that this engine has a butt load of cherry picked parts to make it the engine that the quad 4 was supposed to be. I can't believe how inconsiderate you are.


Don't let the trolls get you down, Fierobsessed. Those of us who know the wonder that is the Quad 4 love this thread and the fine work and attention to deal it demonstrates.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #230, 02-12-2013 09:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pprbart@cs.com:

quad 4 is one of gm's biggest disasters of its many. The cylinder head warped twice and not from overheating. Its just a poor design. GM had many fail on proving grounds testing but the brass used its anyway. I had to finally sell the car as a restoration vehicle. the cam support is also below strength. I cracked several times. Another gm disaster. Why would you pick such a dog.


LMAO, people say that all the time about Fieros, and that hasn't stopped any of us.

As far as why,.. read post #1


Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #231, 02-13-2013 05:56 AM
      Sorry, I just get a little worked up when someone dogs someone elses choice in what they want to do with their car. Especially when someone is gracious enough to share with the community in such great detail just how they are going about persuing their goal. It's a real demotivator. Thats why so many people, especially many 3800 guys won't necessarily share their experiences, because someone will invariably crap on them if the work is being done in a way that they wouldn't do it in. And I don't mean constructive critisizm either.

Alls well that ends well, and now back to our Brandys.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #232, 02-14-2013 01:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:


As far as why,.. read post #1


It's the same reason I'm doing the swap. I had an HO Quad from my rusty old GTZ and just needed a new home for it. Of course, the low budget is also the reason my swap is proceeding at a glacial pace. I used to get mid-30 mpgs in my GTZ on the highway. Can't wait to see how the Fiero does.


Xyster MSG #233, 02-14-2013 01:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:


It's the same reason I'm doing the swap. I had an HO Quad from my rusty old GTZ and just needed a new home for it. Of course, the low budget is also the reason my swap is proceeding at a glacial pace. I used to get mid-30 mpgs in my GTZ on the highway. Can't wait to see how the Fiero does.


Exactly. The Quad HO in my Grand Am frequently cleared 40mpg highway and averaged upper 20s in town under a heavy foot.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #234, 03-06-2013 05:55 AM
      It runs

I had alot happen recently, and I have not been able to finish the Fiero as I would have wanted, or keep this thread updated as I wanted.
But I still have pics to upload and updates to do, not as many as I wanted (not that I don't have enough allready) with a hard drive crash, and no time to take pics just trying to get it done as quick as I could with the small time allowed I had each day.

The last 10% is always the most time consuming getting everything to fit right, and finding all the just-the-right-parts.

I still have a few things on the Fiero to button up before I can drive it. I got it running tonight and it was late so I came home.

What a LOUD engine when it FIRST starts up. It takes a few mins for the lifters to pump up and quite down.
One the lifters had oil, it sounds SO NICE, loud yes, doesn't sound like a 4 banger at all . I did check the oil again once the oil pumped up and had to add another half quart (I filled the engine before to the full line, it took 4 1/2 quarts to do that, then after the other half quart it was a full 5 quarts)

The only thing left engine wise to do is, for some reason my fuel pump doesn't come on with the key, (I jumpered it at the ALDL to run the pump to start it) (I added in the ALDL fuel pump jumper pin ) I do have it running though a fuel pump hot wire setup, I just need to test the wires, prob just an old relay actually.

I should be able to drive it tommorow


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #235, 03-06-2013 09:49 AM
      Congratulations. And thanks again for taking the time to post all the photos and comments.

josef644 (josef644@hotmail.com) MSG #236, 03-06-2013 07:55 PM
      Keep up the excellent work. I have been enjoying the $hit of this thread. Might even try one of these my self just to get the power steering.
-Joe

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 03-06-2013).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #237, 03-07-2013 05:42 AM
      I got the Fiero together today and got to drive it.

It is deffinitly more fun than the duke.

At 3000 RPM it starts pulling good, then it hit 4000 and it really pulls all the way up, I got up to 7200.
Not close to as fast to my turbo GT, but it is deffinitly fun, for a MPG Fiero.
With the exhaust I have, it is LOUD I won't lie about that. and it does shake the Fiero a bit.
With the gears I have in the trans(3.65FDR) it pulls first and second gear well, then not as much in third, I bet with the 3.94FDR it would, but I am going for MPG so it is fine for now.

I figured out the fuel pump issue, I used the relays that came with the harrness, being it was from an Indy, they are 84 Fiero relays. turned out those relays suck. I even grabed another 2 from another 84 and those didn't work either(total of 4), so I plugged in a standard Bosch relay and all is good now.

I still have pics and info to catch up on, but when I have the choice of finishing my Fiero or posting here, sorry you guys can wait. (I know alot on here would rather post then work on thier Fiero, IE high post counts :P) I will get to it soon.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #238, 03-07-2013 05:46 AM
      doh' double post

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 03-07-2013).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #239, 03-19-2013 05:48 PM
      It's been too long since I updated this post.
I have been so busy, I havent had time to add pics and updates. I have had lots of small things to tweek the on the engine etc.
I charged my A/C last night as it is starting to get hot here in Vegas, and the line I made is working, so far so good.
I have to find all my pics and start posting the finsh of the build, (I had to recover the data from my dead hard drive, I even found a way to use beer to get data back, but that is another story)
More pics to come soon.



FFIEROFRED (frwihall@aol.com) MSG #240, 03-19-2013 08:51 PM
      For good mpg, at cruzing speed, you want hot air at the intake and normal engine temps. Cold air is good for power, bad for mpg. same for engine temp.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #241, 03-20-2013 12:55 AM
      Time for some more pics of the odds and ends finishing up my swap.

My wireing harness with all the loom on it.




The upgraded alternator cable and the cable running to the power distribution block.
I used a double cable style like found on caddys, useing a longer battery bolt and block in the second cable.




Where I attached the ground cable, to the top alternator bolt.




And the ground strap.



More to come.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #242, 03-20-2013 07:41 AM
      Looks great. Would love to see it in person, but the photos and the commentary really help. I just started the process of mating my Quad 4/Getrag to my 88 cradle.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #243, 03-24-2013 02:46 AM
      Pics of the my exhaust.
It was LOUD, untill I blocked of one of the tips and it cut the sound down to less than half, I added a block off plate to one side with screws so if I want I can undo it really quick and be LOUD and obnoxious again.


I still need to paint it, but i had no time.




The corner in the wheel well.




The tip from the side, a little blurred. As mentioned before the same tips used by Ferraris and Lambos stock.





sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #244, 03-24-2013 03:11 AM
      The bracket Fierobsessed made for the throttle cable was made for a different cable setup than what I used, being that I used the stock 87 throttle cable I had to modify it a bit to fit the side on cable mount.






The engine ready to go in.




And in the Fiero. I know...I didn't even have time to clean the engine bay.



Another engine pic in the Fiero.
I need to make some kind of cold air intake, but being time very limited for me at this point I just added a cone filter as seen in this pic, (Autozone $25)






How I ran the heater line, it came around the back on an 87 duke, So I extended the hose and added a restrictor in the line as Fierobsessed said he had blown a heater core due to the high pressure at high RPM.




The Evap canister had only 2 ports on the Quad 4 so the Fiero one had to be adapted, here is what I found to do.
I hope it makes sense.




sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #245, 03-24-2013 03:17 AM
      Being I needed gauges that went to 7400RPM, YES thats 7400 RPM, I used these gauges, I allready had them anyway.






More to come.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 05-01-2013).]

fieroaddicted (service@parkstreetrv.ca) MSG #246, 03-24-2013 05:37 AM
      very nice! looks good
troy


imabuzzkill MSG #247, 03-24-2013 07:15 AM
      Keep it up and I'll have to drop off the fiero for a swap! ..... It really is coming along. I'm jealous as I've wanted a quad 4.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #248, 03-28-2013 05:28 AM
      The stock mount is a POS, mine leaked out the fluid and dropped a 1/4 in and the Quad guys all say they suck, even the soild rubber ones, (the stock one is liqued filled like a 88 V6 mount)
It was causeing the enigne to buck between first and second shifts at high RPM. Then being lower it caused the trans to sit on the cradle.

So I came up with this idea for a solid mount.
Here is a pic of the stock mount installed and squashed.




Here is the stock mount out of the Fiero.




I got some S-10 body lift pucks from a good friend, rated to 50,000PSI per sq in, they were a little small as a stock mount is 3 3/4 in tall, and the pucks are 3 in tall, so I got another one and cut a 3/4 in section out of it.




And I had to deal with the bolt setup, being the bottom mount is a flat plate I could just drill a hole in the center between the bolts and use that. To get the hole centered I scribed a line from the outside of the bolt holes and where they crossed was the center between them. IE outside left on one hole to the outside right of the other, then visa versa.




Then I got a 1/2" 6" grade 8 bolt from Lowes and a lock nut to match.




All the pieces I used, I used some thick washers to help spread out the load. (The bottom is a Fiero v6 balancer washer, with the hole drilled out to a 1/2 in) I always use Fiero parts when I can.




The way it all sits together. BTW I had to pull off the motor-to-mount bracket to get the mount out without lifting the engine too much.




Installed in the Fiero, I had to put the bolt from the bottom as I put the engine-to-mount bracket on then the bolt would not go through the top, doh. But with the nylon lock nut and red lock tight, I should have no problems.






Now the engine does not move like it did and shifts great, full force. I should have done this from the start, but 'captain hindsight' came after as always.

What a rev happy engine, there is no way 6700 RPM would be enough from this engine (the stock H.O. rev limit) it pulls to 7,400 no prob and feels like it wants to just keep going. (The W41 rev limit) I need a BRIGHT shift light, climbs RPM just fast.

So far LOTS-O-FUN.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 03-28-2013).]

sleevePAPA MSG #249, 03-28-2013 05:54 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

it pulls to 7,400 no prob and feels like it wants to just keep going.


Yes it does, only runs out of power when the rev limiter cuts the fuel. LOL



Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #250, 03-28-2013 11:21 AM
      Outstanding work. One of the members on the Quad forum developed a way to use hockey pucks to fix that mount issue.

http://www.quad4forums.com/...ighlight=hockey+puck

I like yours because it's simpler. Plus, I discovered that finding hockey pucks in Oklahoma is darn near impossible so I had to have my sister in Pennsylvania send me some. Can you be more specific about that S-10 mount? Is it an aftermarket thing or could I find one in the salvage yard?

As far as Quads being fun to drive, amen. I've been Quadless since September when I parked my GTZ to begin the swap into my Fiero. I miss it so much, especially highway on ramps in 2nd and 3rd gear.

[This message has been edited by Quad Raider (edited 03-28-2013).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #251, 03-28-2013 03:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

Outstanding work. One of the members on the Quad forum developed a way to use hockey pucks to fix that mount issue.

http://www.quad4forums.com/...ighlight=hockey+puck

I like yours because it's simpler. Plus, I discovered that finding hockey pucks in Oklahoma is darn near impossible so I had to have my sister in Pennsylvania send me some. Can you be more specific about that S-10 mount? Is it an aftermarket thing or could I find one in the salvage yard?

As far as Quads being fun to drive, amen. I've been Quadless since September when I parked my GTZ to begin the swap into my Fiero. I miss it so much, especially highway on ramps in 2nd and 3rd gear.
,


I saw the hockey puck idea, but hockey pucks being only 1" tall that would be 3/4' too short, then to make up the bolts like he did looked like a PITA comparred, yes you could do one bolt through it but from what I have found is when the rubber compresses it will slam the bolt on the otherside of the mount and tends to pull it through. I had to be right at 3-3/4" when it dropped to 3-1/2' it was too short for me and I don't want the engine moving.

The parts I used are to do a body lift on a S-10, blazer, etc. they are not stock, they go in between the body and the frame, these were found at a junk yard, thus why he had extras. It is a common way to lift trucks so good chance of finding them used. you can see them from the side of trucks with them.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #252, 04-16-2013 06:17 AM
      I found a couple of more pics. In case your asking, no I havent posted enough yet.


I had to be able to bring 7400 RPM back down quick, so I installed one of my brake boosters.
(BTW this doesn't stop pulling untill the rev limit hits, a good thing)

Before the stock booster.




The bigger one.




People have said my brakes were good before, but after haveing the bigger booster in my GT and getting used to it during this swap, I felt like I had to stand on the brakes with the stock one,
As I have said before it climbs RPMs sooooo fast, I'm not used to such a high reving engine I always drove pushrod engines before, the Duke only was only good to about 4500-5000ish, the Quad wakes up at 3-4k.
Ah fun times.


MarkS (mshucks2@earthlink.net) MSG #253, 04-16-2013 05:20 PM
      I've read more than once that the 89 fiero was slated for the Q4 HO. A few more years of factory development and our little cars would have been quite the gem..ashame..oh well..8(.

BR's,

Mark



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #254, 04-19-2013 03:49 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:
Can you be more specific about that S-10 mount? Is it an aftermarket thing or could I find one in the salvage yard?


I used something like this http://www.amazon.com/Zone-...ords=body+lift+block
Remember it has to be 3 3/4" so you need 2 and cut 3/4" piece off of the second one.


zkhennings MSG #255, 05-02-2013 10:54 AM
      You should post some running and driving videos! We are all excited to see them

fourpoint9 (stevenmsimpson@comcast.net) MSG #256, 05-07-2013 09:54 PM
      sardonyx247, What did you use for the clutch slave?


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #257, 05-08-2013 03:04 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

You should post some running and driving videos! We are all excited to see them


Of all the pics I took, I haven't got any vids yet, I'll get some.


 
quote
Originally posted by fourpoint9:

sardonyx247, What did you use for the clutch slave?


I used a Fiero V6 5-speed Getrag slave.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #258, 05-08-2013 11:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

What a rev happy engine, there is no way 6700 RPM would be enough from this engine (the stock H.O. rev limit) it pulls to 7,400 no prob and feels like it wants to just keep going. (The W41 rev limit) I need a BRIGHT shift light, climbs RPM just fast.

So far LOTS-O-FUN.



Now that I have a 7000 RPM limiter on the Northstar, I have know idea how I ever lived with 6400.

You say the stock limiter on the W41 was 7400? What flywheel did GM use for that?

I'd like to spin the Northstar to 7500 when I upgrade the cams, but I'm concerned about the GM cast iron flywheel I have. I have a V6 flywheel that's been plugged and redrilled with the Northstar crank bolt pattern.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #259, 05-08-2013 04:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Now that I have a 7000 RPM limiter on the Northstar, I have know idea how I ever lived with 6400.

You say the stock limiter on the W41 was 7400? What flywheel did GM use for that?

I'd like to spin the Northstar to 7500 when I upgrade the cams, but I'm concerned about the GM cast iron flywheel I have. I have a V6 flywheel that's been plugged and redrilled with the Northstar crank bolt pattern.


I used the stock Quad 4 flywheel.
It looks alot like a Fiero 88 V6 flywheel, even though it has a different part number.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #260, 05-10-2013 11:20 AM
      What crank bolt circle does the Q4 use? Different than the V6?
Do you have the part number handy?

You didn't happen to notice the casting number, did you?


weaselbeak (dynamic_88@hotmail.com) MSG #261, 05-10-2013 04:44 PM
      I've used those black rubber boat trailer rollers in a few applications, especially good for making body mounts. They are a foot long, cost about 13 bucks, and you just slice off whatever thickness you need. This is a very resilient rubber compound. I think it would be the next thing short of a solid mount.

[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 05-10-2013).]

carbon MSG #262, 06-07-2013 03:43 PM
      V-I-D-E-O



zkhennings MSG #263, 06-07-2013 04:13 PM
      Yes Please

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #264, 08-23-2013 11:58 PM
      Anything new?

ericjon262 MSG #265, 10-28-2013 08:54 PM
      any updates here?



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #266, 11-05-2013 12:42 AM
      Sorry I haven't updated this in a while.

Updates;
It is LOUD, I need a muffler.
I drive it everyday, I get about 22 MPG in the city, about 28 on highway.
I was hoping for better, but that is what they are rated at, the H.O.s.
But it doesn't seem to matter how I drive it, warm, cold, hard, easy, I get about 22. I haven't checked it in a few months though. (no tripometer on the digi gauges, so not so easy to log )
It is fun to drive, it has plenty of power when needed, it pulls hard all the way to redline. Did I mention it's loud.
It doesn't leak, knock on wood. GM said in the videos that they put in alot of time into it not leaking, good job GM.
I need videos yes. I also think I need to stiffin up the last rubber mount, the engine moves a little more than I would like.
It runs good.


Doober MSG #267, 12-26-2013 03:37 PM
      I've actually added this to my consideration list, I was orignally thinking a larger v6 (3400 or 3900), but after some research I think a zippy high revving Fiero would be a blast. I would probably go with an EBL personally, instead of burning chips... on the fence whether I would attempt a turbo or not. Does it share the bellhousing bolt pattern with the other common Fiero engines? I relish the thought of a 6-speed.

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #268, 12-26-2013 03:57 PM
      The Quad has its own specific bellhousing bolt pattern. It had some problems from the factory because GM used a cheap head gasket, but once you fix that issue it's awesome. I was a diehard V-8 guy until my brother gave me a '92 Beretta GTZ and an HO Quad with a blown head gasket. After replacing the HG and freshening up the rest of the engine, it was my daily driver for four years.

It's such a great mix of power and fuel economy.

http://www.quad4forums.com/forums/


bcampbell (blairdude@gmail.com) MSG #269, 12-27-2013 03:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

The Quad has its own specific bellhousing bolt pattern. It had some problems from the factory because GM used a cheap head gasket, but once you fix that issue it's awesome. I was a diehard V-8 guy until my brother gave me a '92 Beretta GTZ and an HO Quad with a blown head gasket. After replacing the HG and freshening up the rest of the engine, it was my daily driver for four years.

It's such a great mix of power and fuel economy.

http://www.quad4forums.com/forums/


Interestingly a 60*V6 bellhousing will actually have 3 holes line up with the quad-4 bellhousing (the two dowel pin holes included). However this puts the trans on an angle (can't remember how much) so not really useful info for a transverse swap. I believe the ecotec engine also uses the same dowel pin locations.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #270, 01-04-2014 09:05 PM
      Here are a couple of updates.

My last 2 fill-ups I got 25.6 MPG, (I havent checked it in months, untill now)
and I took my Fiero across a scale, and it came in at 2700 lbs.


Alex553 (alexzero553@gmail.com) MSG #271, 01-05-2014 02:52 AM
      Awesome I'm barely getting ready to start my quad 4 swap. Biggest pain for me is the wireline harness. How did you adapt the v6 slave? Was it with the adapter from Rodney dickman? Also does the trans bolt up to the stock locations?

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #272, 01-05-2014 07:31 AM
      Awesome build! I had a 1990 Beretta GTZ with a swapped-in Achieva SCX Quad 4. Man I miss that car! 180KMH in 3rd gear, no problem. All it had was a hollowed out cat, and a JET performance chip. I never had a stitch of trouble with this car. My mechanic buddy told me to never bring it to his shop! I guess he seen too many bad head gaskets. Keep up the good work and lets see more Quad 4 builds people.

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #273, 01-07-2014 01:44 PM
      Sardonyx, any chance you have more photos of the engine sitting on the cradle. Specifically, I'm looking for how high the engine and trans sit off the cradle, and where the axles are located fore and aft. I'm in the process of fabricating mounts for my engine and trans. I think I have the location set, with the trans about a 1/4" above the cradle rail and the harmonic balancer about 1" above.

Congratulations on the swap and thanks again for posting all the photos and tips.


kevin (kevinsullivan@frontier.com) MSG #274, 01-09-2014 12:08 PM
      Great Build! My job sometimes takes me to Reno. I would greatly anticipate a time where I can visit and see your build Oh, I speak for all Fiero owners and ask if you can make us all happy by showing us a video? We want to hear it running.

Cordially,
kevin

[This message has been edited by kevin (edited 01-09-2014).]

Xyster MSG #275, 04-12-2014 11:06 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:






Q1. How did you turn the IDI cover around? Mine has metal flanges for the ignition parts to bolt to.
Q2. Any other updates?


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #276, 04-14-2014 12:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Xyster:


Q1. How did you turn the IDI cover around? Mine has metal flanges for the ignition parts to bolt to.


He covered that on page 4. The photos and explanation are about halfway down the page.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #277, 04-15-2014 07:08 AM
      Here is a quick note on the Quads.
If you have one bad fuel injector it will take out both injectors on the same circut. IE the two center ones or the two outside ones.
I have more updates to come, just no time to post them now.

Just figured this is a BIG FYI.


carbon MSG #278, 04-15-2014 09:03 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

V-I-D-E-O



What he said...


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #279, 09-10-2014 02:15 AM
      I know I NEED video, but video doesn't give you the feeling of the 7400 rev limit.
but some kind of update,...
I drive this everyday, still loud, but fun to drive.
It has more power band than most cars have RPM.
I did add solid mounts as the stock rubber are just crap, (I don't care about the virbration, I'm not a whiny b@#$%) I even added 'bass shakers' for more.
I never question "if I have the power the pass this fool, or make a lane change in front of this other fool without getting hit"
I knew the duke didn't so I wouldn't even try.
And I have never once wished I did a different engine instead of the Quad. (I do have my GT though)
I still get suprised on the cars it beats, just funny.
I need new struts before I can take it to the track, I lauched once hard and got wheel hop, so need new struts, and I don't launch because of it. (wheel hop = trans killer)
If I can get around to a good vid I will post one up, or if I find more pics I'll post them too.



Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #280, 09-10-2014 08:27 AM
      Thanks for the update! Glad to hear you're still thrilled with the swap.

Csjag (csmustang0007@gmail.com) MSG #281, 09-10-2014 08:43 AM
      That picture of the motor in the car really looks like it should of had that motor from the factory! Excellent job, way beyond my skills.

dbober MSG #282, 09-10-2014 10:06 AM
      If memory serves me right, the high output Quad4 was scheduled for the 1989 model year.
But of course, that never happened.


ericjon262 MSG #283, 11-20-2014 08:53 PM
      still no vid? what gives?

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #284, 11-21-2014 05:45 AM
      Because I get busy fixing other peoples Fieros and forget.
I will see what I can do.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #285, 11-21-2014 12:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

Here are a couple of updates.

My last 2 fill-ups I got 25.6 MPG, (I havent checked it in months, untill now)
and I took my Fiero across a scale, and it came in at 2700 lbs.


How much gas? Spare tire in the front? what wheels/tires are you running?


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #286, 11-21-2014 04:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


How much gas? Spare tire in the front? what wheels/tires are you running?


I have the stock size 15" wheels, 205/60-15 and 215/60-15, when I took it accros the scale I forget how much gas was it in, and nothing was missing from the car when I did.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #287, 11-22-2014 06:26 PM
      My Northstar car was 2895 with a few extra things (jumper cables up front & similar). I do have heavier than stock wheels and tires... just wondering how a Quad4 car got 200 lbs lighter.

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #288, 11-22-2014 11:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

My Northstar car was 2895 with a few extra things (jumper cables up front & similar). I do have heavier than stock wheels and tires... just wondering how a Quad4 car got 200 lbs lighter.


You have 4 more cyls.?.?

My GT came in around 2850ish

My Quad Fiero also has man windows, man locks, I think the only option the car had was a sunroof. And it is a notchback too.
Every little thing adds up.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #289, 11-24-2014 05:41 PM
      A Northstar long block is about 310#.
A Q4 is lighter, but I don't think its short block weighs 100#



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #290, 07-06-2016 04:55 AM
      I haven't updated this, it looks like a year and a half, but no real problems for that long What a great daily driver.

But I do have a bad output bearing on the transmission, so time to change out transmissions, plus I decided to go with the 3.94 final drive vs the 3.61 I have been running.
And to change out the oil pan gasket, if you have the bracket that bolts to the exhaust manifold and then to the oil pan I do not recommend it, as far as I can tell it caused an oil leak. My engine is composed of a few different years so I used every bracket I had, probably a reason they dropped some of them, (besides being in different cars).

Another problem I have found is the 3.94 trans has only one mounting hole for the select cable bracket, so I had to make a bracket for the other mounting point.

Pics to come.


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #291, 07-06-2016 10:05 AM
      I envy your perseverance in completing the Quad Four swap. Looks like a really clean install. Over the years we have read mixed reviews on this engine but any swap is a work vs reward project. Look in the archives for posts from a member named bryson. He completed a turbo quad four project and was shooting for 400HP.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #292, 07-06-2016 12:07 PM
      I remember bryson's build, he didn't do enough research and blamed others when he blew it up.
The mixed reviews I have always read about this engine are usally from people who didn't have one or just "what they read on the internet" so it must be true right they did have problems with bad head gaskets, but that was fixed, but people only remember the bad. Like these cars catch on fire right

I think this is a fun engine to drive, with a huge, wide power band. I went through everything on this engine when I built it and was amazed at all the tech GM put into it. It's not an engine for the masses as the masses whine too much about noise and vibration, thus why they had to keep detuning it. I think it's fun though


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #293, 07-06-2016 12:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

I think this is a fun engine to drive, with a huge, wide power band. I went through everything on this engine when I built it and was amazed at all the tech GM put into it. It's not an engine for the masses as the masses whine too much about noise and vibration, thus why they had to keep detuning it. I think it's fun though


That's a great way to put it. My GTZ was my daily driver for four years, so I was running that HO Quad on a 65-mile round trip every day. The struts were worn out, the body was rusting through underneath and the AC didn't work, but damn that car was fun to drive and I miss it every day.


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #294, 07-06-2016 12:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

I remember bryson's build, he didn't do enough research and blamed others when he blew it up.
The mixed reviews I have always read about this engine are usally from people who didn't have one or just "what they read on the internet" so it must be true right they did have problems with bad head gaskets, but that was fixed, but people only remember the bad. Like these cars catch on fire right

I think this is a fun engine to drive, with a huge, wide power band. I went through everything on this engine when I built it and was amazed at all the tech GM put into it. It's not an engine for the masses as the masses whine too much about noise and vibration, thus why they had to keep detuning it. I think it's fun though


Years back I knew two guys (Joe Wynman and Bruce Cutter) that drove H.O, Quad Four Fiero's. Both cars had the stick, they enjoyed driving them, had reliability and liked the performance. They remarked that the power band was very strong above 3000 RPM. As for bryson; there is some good info on his posts in the archives. He put a lot of money into a questionable Q4 build and dire consequences resulted..



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #295, 07-06-2016 01:05 PM
      I was posting in brysons thread, so I am very well versed in his build, he wouldn't answer any questions, that fell on his dad to answer, he was too busy trying to show off. I even talked to him on the phone, and all he wanted to do was to try to sell me his failed parts. But he was young at the time too. And I do give him some credit for trying, but he really didn't know what he was doing.

And yea, the power band is from 3000rpms up, it REALLY pulls hard from 3k all the way to 7,400. The power does not taper off either, that part is great.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #296, 07-06-2016 01:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

I was posting in brysons thread, so I am very well versed in his build, he wouldn't answer any questions, that fell on his dad to answer, he was too busy trying to show off. I even talked to him on the phone, and all he wanted to do was to try to sell me his failed parts. But he was young at the time too. And I do give him some credit for trying, but he really didn't know what he was doing.

And yea, the power band is from 3000rpms up, it REALLY pulls hard from 3k all the way to 7,400. The power does not taper off either, that part is great.


Given your intended transmission swap and your penchant for revs, are you sticking with 5W30, or moving to something with a little more bearing protection from the pounding. Some performance cars I've read have a recommendation to switch to a higher viscosity oil for track use. I use 5W40-50 synthetic due to high compression. Some anticipated I would have bearing problems from the increased compression but so far none in the past 4 yrs. The wider the spread between the first and second number, the greater the viscosity index; 5W40 offers more protection than 10W40 and 20W50, etc. It's an under appreciated topic but the oil comes off the bearings hotter than coolant temps and the hotter it gets over ~220 deg the thinner it gets. Keep that in mind, otherwise nice work.


Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #297, 07-06-2016 04:07 PM
      I've enjoyed reading this thread from the beginning. I can relate to this engine as I owned a 1990 GTZ years ago. The original engine had issues and was replaced with one from an Achieva SCX. I had a hollowed out cat, K&N filter and a performance chip from JET. None of my mechanic friends liked this engine but I did. 7500 RPM, 3rd gear, 180 KM/H no problem. I loved the way this engine sounded and performed. I couldn't find one recently so I decided to install the naturally aspirated 2.2 Ecotec into my Fiero. I'm finishing off the cradle mods and I hope to hear this run within the month.

Shayne


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #298, 07-06-2016 10:47 PM
      I remember when the Quad came out and all the positive attention it got. I had friends who bought new Quad-equipped cars and loved them, until the head gaskets blew. Typical GM, all that time and money engineering the power plant and then a substandard secondary part costs the company major reputation points. I say this as a lifelong fan of GM products.

In some ways the Quad's story is just like the Fiero's. A lot of thought went into its production, but there were some problems. Anyone who knows how to correct the problems will be treated to a real treasure.

[This message has been edited by Quad Raider (edited 07-22-2016).]

sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #299, 07-07-2016 05:06 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Quad Raider:

In some ways the Quad's story is just like the Fiero's. A lot of thought went into its production, but there were some problems, Anyone who knows how to correct the problems will be treated to a real treasure.


What a great way to put it.


I found my oil leak, a crack in the oil pan, right where the bracket I said to leave off, the bolt hole. So I pulled my spare pan, wire wheeled off the grease, prepping it for paint, and found a damn crack in that one too. but that one is in the bottom so hopefully it can be fixed.
I handed it off to my friend Chris to weld it up at his work, (I don't have the equipment to weld aluminum) So hopefully tomorrow It will be fixed, or I will be scouring the yards looking for a pan, but they are getting harder to find. I want everything fixed by Friday so I can take it to the track. I have alot of work to do in the next 2 days. I might make it, I might not. I have pics to come, but want to get it all done first. I still love this engine.


Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #300, 07-07-2016 09:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Lunatic:

I've enjoyed reading this thread from the beginning. I can relate to this engine as I owned a 1990 GTZ years ago. The original engine had issues and was replaced with one from an Achieva SCX. I had a hollowed out cat, K&N filter and a performance chip from JET. None of my mechanic friends liked this engine but I did. 7500 RPM, 3rd gear, 180 KM/H no problem. I loved the way this engine sounded and performed. I couldn't find one recently so I decided to install the naturally aspirated 2.2 Ecotec into my Fiero. I'm finishing off the cradle mods and I hope to hear this run within the month.

Shayne


I love your build thread, too. Your work is amazing. Your thread has me thinking about trying the same swap, if I ever get this freaking Quad swap finished. As Sardonyx said, Quads are getting hard to find in the salvage yards, but Ecotecs are everywhere.



sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #301, 07-08-2016 06:26 AM
      Well I got most of it done today. Oil pan was fixed, yea Chris, and installed, BTW the oil pan gasket is reusable (per GM) shift fork, custom bracket, and all accessories transferred to the new transmission, transmission back in the car, cradle fixed and back in the car (it had a couple of cracks (I think I hit a rock somewhere, probably one of my off road trips (Yes I take this off road, nothing like flying down a dirt road doing 90mph )) Part of the day was waiting for paint to dry. I decided to paint my exhaust this time as I didn't have time last time. Here is a good trick for exhaust paint, use barbecue paint, VERY high heat, flat black and cheaper and better than high heat exhaust paint. I still have an hour or two tomorrow to finish it all up. Axles, sway bar, suspension, fluids, test drive and clean up.

I counted the turns and found I have this transmission.

I will add the calcs to show the differance

1992-1994
1st 3.50 13.79
2nd 2.05 8.077
3rd 1.38 5.4372
4th 1.03 4.0582
5th 0.72 2.8368
Axle 3.94

I went from this one

1991
1st 3.77 13.6097
2nd 2.19 7.9059
3rd 1.38 4.9818
4th 1.03 3.7183
5th 0.81 2.9241
Axle 3.61

So you can see it will be quicker in 1-4th with a lower geared overdrive in 5th
After driving it all this time I may get better mpg as I looked at the different years it came in and the 3.94 seemed to get better mpg as the power band and efficiency is higher up, plus the better 5th. I never owned a high rev'r DOHC before so I figured lower rpms the better, but may not be in this case, we shall see. 1st and 2nd are not too far off from each other, between trans, 3rd and 4th are a ways apart, 5th goes the other way. Either way I will be happy when the damn ratting is gone form the output bearing. It was hard to pinpoint as it would only happen sometimes, and only around some corners, on and off throttle but never while sitting still even under load. I found it as when I changed my struts I moved one of the axles and said "hey there's that noise" I had it since the install. Sounded like an exhaust rattle. And after going to the track a few times with the Quad, I wanted a faster trans, as 3rd is what carries you down most of the 1/4. And all Getrags have the same 3rd so it is the final drive that changes things. This trans, with the high rev limit, will still go over 200mph, not that a Fiero can handle that but still nice to know
I still have a few pics to upload, especially the custom bracket needed for this trans case.
I may have to wait until next track day later this month, as I may be going out of town tomorrow, we shall see. Even with the times I have ran so far I am the quickest 4 cylinder Fiero for the quarter mile list. I have yet to post times.




sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #302, 07-22-2016 02:43 AM
      Now for some pics

Here is the crack in my oil pan



My new pan



Painted



I have to say, I pulled this from a Buick Skylark, I never want to do that again, there are so many things in the way of pulling the oil pan, in the Fiero I only had to drop my rear sway bar and the coolant tube to get at the whole pan. To get it out of the Buick it took alot of tools and a hacksaw to get it out.

Another trick I learned on the quads, to reinstall the spacers that go between the pan and trans. Make sure the spacers have no paint on the ends, and soak them in ice water for like 10 mins, It barely helps but just enough to get them in. Heres a pic of the spacer.

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 07-22-2016).]

Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #303, 07-22-2016 08:14 PM
      When my brother gave me his '92 GTZ in 2008 with a blown head gasket, I pulled the engine and transmission out the top. Hell of a job. Then getting them back in was even tougher.

In 2012 when I was junking the car I dropped the cradle. So much easier.

I love all the extra room in the Fiero engine compartment. Great tip about those spacers. Someone on the Quad forum made the point that they're crucial.


sardonyx247 (sardonyx247@yahoo.com) MSG #304, 07-03-2017 06:19 AM
      Update:
I lost all 3 motor mount bolts on the firewall side, so make sure to locktite them in, I used blue this time (I know most of you have natural locktite, rust, but here in Vegas, it is hard to keep bolts in)
High vibration engine and all.

And I think my old transmission may have been faster 0.3 secs on the 1/4, but it could have been the heat too, haven't logged MPG yet.

I can't believe it has been 5 years since I started this swap, I still love it, what a good daily driver. The power band is just awesome, more power band than most engines have RPMs.




Quad Raider (richard.clark@griffin.news) MSG #305, 07-03-2017 09:06 PM
      Glad to see an update.