The Turbo 3500 F23 swap
Topic started by: ericjon262, Date: 10-03-2011 11:26 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html


ericjon262 MSG #1, 10-03-2011 11:26 PM
      all of my pictures went away, photo****it decided I needed to pay them a ridiculous amount of money, I'll eventually reload them and bring this back up to speed... maybe.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 11-03-2019).]

Niterrorz MSG #2, 10-03-2011 11:42 PM
      you had me untill the oil filter plumbing

ericjon262 MSG #3, 10-03-2011 11:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Niterrorz:

you had me untill the oil filter plumbing


the oil filter would sit right against the side of the a/c compressor, I also didn't want rubber lines where I couldn't access them for inspection. I'm not 100% where the filter will be when I'm done. The adapter's ports are 1/2" pipe thread and I can put a couple of tack welds on the 1/2" gas pipe to secure it 100% when it's set.



neophile_17 MSG #4, 10-04-2011 08:50 AM
      Nice progress. I'm going to second the oil filter plumbing redo. If you want hard lines get an adapter for 3/8" or 1/2" brake line. That stuff is HEAVY and will probably crack your filter adapter.

~sam


MstangsBware (stephen_p38@yahoo.com) MSG #5, 10-04-2011 10:52 AM
      Looking good....I have been waiting on some detailed build Threads on the newer motors out there. Keep it up....

ericjon262 MSG #6, 10-04-2011 11:16 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by neophile_17:

Nice progress. I'm going to second the oil filter plumbing redo. If you want hard lines get an adapter for 3/8" or 1/2" brake line. That stuff is HEAVY and will probably crack your filter adapter.

~sam



I'm going to make a support bracket to hold it up, it won't be free standing like that when completed. it's also the same inside diameter as the adapters, so there won't be a significant restriction to flow. it's not set in stone yet, but I probably won't go with brake line, it's too small, 1/2" brake line is 1/2" out side, 1/2" pipe is 1/2" inside.



neophile_17 MSG #7, 10-04-2011 11:58 AM
      I'm skeptical that you need a full 1/2" ID for this but you could run 5/8" Aluminum fuel line if you wanted to save weight and keep a 1/2" minimum ID.

~sam


KaijuSenso MSG #8, 10-04-2011 02:39 PM
      and bookmarked

Looking good so far. I'm most interested in seeing the F23 come together with the 3500. I'm sure you know this but after you get your 3400 harmonic balance on, don't forget to gap the external 7x crank trigger to 0.050 inches. You also kind of lost me on that oil filter adapter. I know I mentioned using a 3400 AC compressor but if you want to go with the relocation, why not turn those 90 degree bends towards the driver's side of the car. There is a ton more room there (on my swap) then near the battery where your oil filter looks to be heading.

Anyway interested in seeing your build.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #9, 10-04-2011 03:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:



Gotta love bolting in an additional 700 cc's and 50% more horsepower to the original mounts.


neophile_17 MSG #10, 10-04-2011 04:15 PM
      LOL. The only thing I didn't cheap out on with my 3400 swap was Rodney's polyurethane mounts. Of course I have to convince some skeptical people it cost me less than $500 too. It was close enough.

~sam


hookdonspeed (hookdonspeed@gmail.com) MSG #11, 10-04-2011 05:03 PM
      that timing cover looks familiar...


ericjon262 MSG #12, 10-04-2011 06:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Gotta love bolting in an additional 700 cc's and 50% more horsepower to the original mounts.


The mount is for mockup only, I'm ordering rodney's poly mount on payday.

hookdonspeed-

yep, that's your old one!



ericjon262 MSG #13, 10-12-2011 01:00 PM
      just a little update, I got my balancer in with the 24x ring.

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unfortunately progress is going pretty slow, 40+ hours a week at work, then work on my house, keeping my truck running ect... and on top of that, the last 2 days off I've had have consisted of working on other peoples cars!



carbon MSG #14, 02-17-2012 12:22 PM
      I demand that you update both sites!

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #15, 02-17-2012 01:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

The mount is for mockup only, I'm ordering rodney's poly mount on payday.

hookdonspeed-

yep, that's your old one!




I meant that *ZERO* fab was necessary to mount the engine.


ericjon262 MSG #16, 02-17-2012 05:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I meant that *ZERO* fab was necessary to mount the engine.


oh, I thought you were being sarcastic about the 26 year old mount being used, there is a small amount of clearancing nessacary on the oilpan of the 3500, but nothing a sidegrinder can't take care of.

Purchased a mount from rodney, but I think I'm going to make a new mount for the front to replace it, I may have a better way...



ericjon262 MSG #17, 02-17-2012 05:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

I demand that you update both sites!


oops, forgot about the build thread I had(have) over here...I'll see about posting some updates to the fiero crowd later tonight...



ericjon262 MSG #18, 02-18-2012 01:52 AM
      anyone ready for some updates???







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Most of my new 5x4.75 swap is here now, and I started on the brakes, unfortunately, I have to go back to the machine shop and have some more machine work done...






you can see where the caliper is colliding with the threaded ears for the original minivan brakes, I'm going to have those cut off, and I'll have the upright drilled and tapped further over so the caliper will overlap the whole rotor for better clamping.

The new brakes seen in this picture are from a 1995 Trans Am, they are both larger and vented. the fronts will be updated to 2001 Trans Am front brakes, again, both vented and larger too. I have the weekend off, so there will be progress!

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 02-18-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #19, 02-18-2012 01:57 AM
      and if your dial up didn't already get killed here's one more...



ericjon262 MSG #20, 02-18-2012 10:42 PM
      well, I made the call tonight, my headers are getting scrapped and re-done, I really liked the design, but, I, like an idiot, welded them with my flux core welder

Now, I'm going to make sure everything else is right, and then I'm going to buy some new pipe, and use my buddies tig welder, which I am very quickly getting used to, and weld them up right this time.



joshua riedl MSG #21, 02-18-2012 11:54 PM
      You could try and wire wheel the welds and go over them with the tig. Tape off the ends, poke a small hole for air to escape and purge with argon and the inside will weld up nice too. Just a thought.

ericjon262 MSG #22, 02-19-2012 12:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by joshua riedl:

You could try and wire wheel the welds and go over them with the tig. Tape off the ends, poke a small hole for air to escape and purge with argon and the inside will weld up nice too. Just a thought.


I was going to do just that, but I'd rather start over at this point.



ericjon262 MSG #23, 02-27-2012 01:34 AM
      Started on my dogbone mount today, the near side of the mount will be held my another piece of plate that goes down to the bellhousing bolts.



also did a little work on one of my front side trans mounts, The poly mount will straddle the front left "horn" of the cradle.



like this



I'm also almost done with my rear trans mount since the thelin mount wouldn't work, I decided to use his as a guide, and build my own off of it.





once I'm done with the mounts, I'll get started again on the headers.



carbon MSG #24, 02-27-2012 07:18 AM
      Nice!

Is that cut out on the driver side to clear the tie rod mount?


ericjon262 MSG #25, 02-27-2012 10:44 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

Nice!

Is that cut out on the driver side to clear the tie rod mount?


you got it, I'll probably have to do something similar on the passenger side



ericjon262 MSG #26, 04-27-2012 10:04 PM
      gents, it's on, I just threw down on a GT35 turbo, we're gonna make some power!



ericjon262 MSG #27, 05-05-2012 12:52 AM
      this thing looks like it will just choke up my exhaust!?






mattwa (mattwa.inc@gmail.com) MSG #28, 05-05-2012 02:15 AM
      First time seeing this thread, looking good! I finished my 3800/F23 recently, and the F23 works great! Too high gearing in my opinion, but it's still really fun, it just hates traffic.

And there is something about nice looking bumper-pads that appeal to me for some reason...


ericjon262 MSG #29, 05-05-2012 04:22 PM
      I plan to lower the car, but otherwise, I think i'll leave the body stock, or very stock appearing.

ericjon262 MSG #30, 05-07-2012 01:40 AM
      worked a bunch on my shift linkages today...





should be enough room under the shift cables for the turbo.




I also started re-doing my front mounts.





ericjon262 MSG #31, 06-12-2012 02:27 AM
      guys, it's been a while since I've posted an update, so here goes.

I'm working on adding power steering to the car, right now, I've got a pump 1/2 way mocked up, and will hopefully finalize the mounting this week. I've finished the front transmission mount, and am going to re-do my shift linkage once the engine is in the car to help make more room for my turbo. I've also started re-doing the wiring harness yet again(third time...) due to changing component locations. I'm waiting on some custom parts from TCE to hopefully get the intake on and finished for good soon. I'm also ordering some 16 ga pipe for my new turbo headers. anyone got some 60lb injectors I can borrow?

Power steering mockup:


and just for shits and grins, here's a comparison shot of the stock fiero UIM vs the LX9 UIM



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #32, 06-12-2012 06:29 AM
      So happy to see the whole engine being installed. I've done a lot of experimenting along these lines, unless you intend for someone else that lacks the stamina to turn the relatively practical powersteeringless Fiero, I strongly advise you to ditch the addition of power steering. You have enough going on already with a tranny, engine and turbo swap going on at the same time. I've been there and I speak from experience, KEEP IT SIMPLE until the base install is complete and functional.

STOP! with the plumber rendition, get that crap off of that motor now, you're asking for trouble. Even supported I wouldn't trust that pipe on that light duty oil bypass adaptor. If you're afraid of rubber hose in that application, braided steel line will put you at ease, siliconeintakes has everything you need at very reasonable prices. I can't emphasize it enough, that pipe needs to come off.

Otherwise it looks good and should be a lot more fun to drive than what you are prepared for if you turbocharge it. That body style is one of the lightest produced, you might need to put a few bricks in it to keep it on the ground.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #33, 06-12-2012 06:38 AM
      I see you intend to use the stock fuel rail, do not use the Mallory bypass adjustable fuel pressure regulator, I read poor reviews about it after purchasing it and am experiencing one of the complaints; inconsistent fuel pressure which I believe is part of the reason I can't completely eliminate idle hunt.

For the oil bypass setup I used a 90 degree flat adaptor with the 3900 block mount adaptor which is a little shorter than the one your motor came with and it cleared the cradle easily.


carbon MSG #34, 06-12-2012 08:56 AM
      I see where you're going with the front tranny mount now... I need to get started on this, but the lift I am going to be using is being used to make money right now...

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

I see you intend to use the stock fuel rail, do not use the Mallory bypass adjustable fuel pressure regulator, I read poor reviews about it after purchasing it and am experiencing one of the complaints; inconsistent fuel pressure which I believe is part of the reason I can't completely eliminate idle hunt.

For the oil bypass setup I used a 90 degree flat adaptor with the 3900 block mount adaptor which is a little shorter than the one your motor came with and it cleared the cradle easily.


What do you suggest for an FPR then? I believe one of the examples I've seen just uses a stock 3400 FPR modified to work remotely... I am doing a similar install, without the turbo, in my 88 utilizing the returnless rail of the 3500...


ericjon262 MSG #35, 06-12-2012 11:53 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

So happy to see the whole engine being installed. I've done a lot of experimenting along these lines, unless you intend for someone else that lacks the stamina to turn the relatively practical powersteeringless Fiero, I strongly advise you to ditch the addition of power steering. You have enough going on already with a tranny, engine and turbo swap going on at the same time. I've been there and I speak from experience, KEEP IT SIMPLE until the base install is complete and functional.

STOP! with the plumber rendition, get that crap off of that motor now, you're asking for trouble. Even supported I wouldn't trust that pipe on that light duty oil bypass adaptor. If you're afraid of rubber hose in that application, braided steel line will put you at ease, siliconeintakes has everything you need at very reasonable prices. I can't emphasize it enough, that pipe needs to come off.


Otherwise it looks good and should be a lot more fun to drive than what you are prepared for if you turbocharge it. That body style is one of the lightest produced, you might need to put a few bricks in it to keep it on the ground.


there's only the 2 elbows on there now, I'll use the hose past there. as far as power steering goes, I'm only mounting the pump right now, and I'm making it a "bolt in setup" I don't intend to do the entire power steering swap just yet, but FYI, i'm also doing a 5x4.75 bolt circle swap, and big brake swap, along with coil-overs.

Can you enlighten me as to what you mean by "the whole engine"



carbon MSG #36, 06-12-2012 12:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Can you enlighten me as to what you mean by "the whole engine"



My guess is all the recent interest in putting iron heads on GenIII blocks...


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #37, 06-12-2012 05:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:
My guess is all the recent interest in putting iron heads on GenIII blocks...


Exactly! Back when tuning software was scarce along with good documentation it was understandable but not now.



ericjon262 MSG #38, 06-23-2012 11:55 PM
      wells guys, I have a slight update! I'm ordering a cam for the 3500 on payday, I've got the garage almost completely cleaned out, and am getting ready to "test fit" the engine so I can finalize my shift linkages and turbo placement, after that, it'll be back to the drawing board for my headers and exhaust. anyone want to donate money (or parts) to the turbo 3500 fund?



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #39, 06-24-2012 09:46 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
anyone want to donate money (or parts) to the turbo 3500 fund?


I'd like to, but by the time I finish laughing you'll be finished with the project. It gets expensive fast and the most costly of all is over ambition, poor planning, then coming up with good plans and not following them and finally getting good advice and not following it, been there and done it.


ericjon262 MSG #40, 06-24-2012 06:47 PM
      I don't think I've gotten too far ahead of myself with anything yet except the first run on the headers, but that was because the car was going to go n/a and have changed my mind(obviously...) the little things, like the first front trans mount, were more of a trial and error thing.



ericjon262 MSG #41, 06-30-2012 11:43 PM
      New cam on the way, nothing insane, .496 lift, 210 duration @.050 should make for a fun little ride... I'll throw some springs and retainers on it while I'm there, and maybe port the heads, not sure yet though, I've heard the 3500 heads are easy to mess up...


Edit:

Hellyeah! page two....@!

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 07-01-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #42, 07-03-2012 08:44 PM
      just realized I never posted pics of my front trans mount, so here they are.










along with some progress pics of the power steering kit.










ericjon262 MSG #43, 07-06-2012 06:31 PM
      got the cam!



ericjon262 MSG #44, 07-08-2012 11:16 PM
      don't know why I bother updating this thread, but here's a few pics of the power steering pump mount, and tensioner setup I've created.





every pulley except the waterpump and alternator has over 180 degrees of wrap, the crank is over 270, and the power steering pump is probably around 200. I'm working on an idler to get the alternator up to 180-200.


carbon MSG #45, 07-11-2012 12:10 PM
      Aww... don't say that.. I follow your threads..

stickboy MSG #46, 07-11-2012 12:38 PM
      I'm reading the thread too

ericjon262 MSG #47, 07-23-2012 01:09 AM
      power steering pump mount almost done, a little more welding, a trip to the blasting cab, and paint then it's done.



I was able to modify my belt routing and catch a bolt on the face of the block too.



and my intake clears the belt now too, if it clears the strut tower....



ericjon262 MSG #48, 08-03-2012 08:01 PM
      I just ordered a set of LS7 Lifters that I'm going to try to retrofit into the 3500. the plan is to install the LS7 lifter's guts into the LX9's lifter body. I'll post pics as it happens.

ericjon262 MSG #49, 08-04-2012 03:06 PM
     

ericjon262 MSG #50, 08-04-2012 03:08 PM
      time for shift linkages!



ericjon262 MSG #51, 08-05-2012 02:01 AM
      ok guys, as we can see, lots of progress today! the engine is in the car, the shift linkage is almost complete, and the turbo placement has been decided. I also ordered my a2w intercooler kit, and my fuel injectors today. I'm going to try to get the turbo piping complete this week. for now, I'm ditching the turbo headers I was going to build in favor of turbo grand prix manifolds ported to better suit my engine. I've got to get this car on the road in the next 2-3 months, which is going to be tough, so some corners may be cut, but hopefully everything will go as planned.



Fieromotion (hevonojantila@gmail.com) MSG #52, 08-05-2012 03:19 PM
      Doing the same transmission swap and I´m interested in you clutch. What make is it?

ericjon262 MSG #53, 08-05-2012 03:49 PM
      the clutch I have now is a centerforce dual friction, but I think I'm going to sell it and get something stouter, I'm starting to get more worried about slipping problems...



ericjon262 MSG #54, 08-05-2012 10:37 PM
      Power steering pump clears everything as expected!





I am having clearance issues with throttle body flange and the decklid supports...



I think I may have a solution



yet another custom part! it's not done yet, it'll get trimmed back to match the LX9 TB flange, and the inner opening smoothed out.

I also made quite a bit of progress on my shifter mechanism.



ericjon262 MSG #55, 08-10-2012 12:18 AM
     

Got my intercooler and injectors!



carbon MSG #56, 08-10-2012 09:42 AM
      So did your clutch fit and spin freely or is the tranny still just bolted to the engine with nothing inbetween?

ericjon262 MSG #57, 08-10-2012 10:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

So did your clutch fit and spin freely or is the tranny still just bolted to the engine with nothing inbetween?


still nothing, I'm going to drop the engine and trans to do final welding on the exhaust, and to install the cam and clutch. I did test fit the clutch kinda half assed a long time ago, and it looked like it would clear no problem.



ericjon262 MSG #58, 08-12-2012 05:17 AM
      I'm working on a set of better lifters for the 60*, so I took 3 lifters apart today,

1 3400 lifter

1 "LS7" lifter

and

1 Comp Magnum SBC Lifter.

The Comp and the LS7 were nearly identical. I also found that if you machined the piston on the V8 lifters down a little bit, you could install them in the 60* and turn them into solid lifters.

Pics tomorrow



ericjon262 MSG #59, 08-17-2012 12:05 AM
      I started porting a set of TGP manifolds today, more to come...



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #60, 08-17-2012 05:14 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I'm working on a set of better lifters for the 60*, so I took 3 lifters apart today,

1 3400 lifter

1 "LS7" lifter

and

1 Comp Magnum SBC Lifter.

The Comp and the LS7 were nearly identical. I also found that if you machined the piston on the V8 lifters down a little bit, you could install them in the 60* and turn them into solid lifters.

Pics tomorrow


What's purportedly wrong with the stock roller lifters? Joshua tried the lifter modification provided by the 60 degree V6 store and had trouble with it. You may want to check with him about it.



ericjon262 MSG #61, 08-17-2012 04:27 PM
      to say the spring in the stock lifters are weak would be an understatement, retro-fitting the LS7 springs should allow me to get close to 7000 RPMs, without any issues.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #62, 08-17-2012 05:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
to say the spring in the stock lifters are weak would be an understatement, retro-fitting the LS7 springs should allow me to get close to 7000 RPMs, without any issues.


I believe It's going to take a bit more than that to make it safe and solid for the 3500 to do 7k rpm routinely. Superdave on 60 degree took out rod bearings at least twice in his 3500 from what I recall and according to their lit.., GM did an enormous amount of work in flow, weight reduction and part strength from what I read to get the LS7 to do 7000 rpm. Keep in mind an LS7 lifter has to do more work weight and ratio wise (1.8:1) rockers than the 3500 lifters relatively speaking.

Just be sure you investigate this thoroughly as lifter spring strength also varies relative to the valve spring strength used not to mention how lifter pump up will affect/support the lifter spring. Just don't take any chances that can create problems is all I'm suggesting.



ericjon262 MSG #63, 08-23-2012 10:44 PM
      well guys, I got a little bit more done, all the manifolds are secured, and I'm about to start my hot side piping, the car will be on the road very soon, within the next two months for sure, hopefully sooner. I want to drive this thing!



ericjon262 MSG #64, 08-29-2012 10:16 PM
      well guys, not much to report, I've been making a diligent effort to get the wiring sorted out. I'm also waiting on parts... I did get the injectors installed, along with the 3400 fuel rail/regulator. I've also found a location for the ECM, but I'll need to make a splash guard for it. I also destroyed my lifters that I was going to modify in an attempt to clean them. so it looks as though the real deal will be on my 3500's lifters.



BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #65, 08-29-2012 11:53 PM
      Good luck with yoru build man! I love to see turbo Fieros! Since you are in Pcola, do you ever go to the swamp meet @ the Boardwalk in Oakaloosa? Maybe we could have a little run, eh?

blander66 (wrbland@mtu.edu) MSG #66, 08-30-2012 09:14 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

well guys, not much to report, I've been making a diligent effort to get the wiring sorted out. I'm also waiting on parts... I did get the injectors installed, along with the 3400 fuel rail/regulator. I've also found a location for the ECM, but I'll need to make a splash guard for it. I also destroyed my lifters that I was going to modify in an attempt to clean them. so it looks as though the real deal will be on my 3500's lifters.




Where are you going to mount your ECM? Thats one of the few things I still have to do on my 3400 swap


ericjon262 MSG #67, 08-30-2012 12:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

Good luck with yoru build man! I love to see turbo Fieros! Since you are in Pcola, do you ever go to the swamp meet @ the Boardwalk in Oakaloosa? Maybe we could have a little run, eh?


we'll have to meet up for sure once this thing is on the road!
 
quote
Originally posted by blander66:
Where are you going to mount your ECM? Thats one of the few things I still have to do on my 3400 swap


where the battery was, I'll make a shield to keep direct rain off of it but it should be fine as it's a weather resistant case.



KurtAKX MSG #68, 08-31-2012 12:20 AM
      You may have covered this already, but what are you doing to make up for the fact that you are turning your power steering pump backwards?

ericjon262 MSG #69, 08-31-2012 01:29 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KurtAKX:

You may have covered this already, but what are you doing to make up for the fact that you are turning your power steering pump backwards?


it's a standard rotation pump, with a reverse rotation pulley.


ericjon262 MSG #70, 09-02-2012 01:28 AM
      Lots of progress has been made on the car! wiring harness is close to 80% done, and tucked up nicely so almost none of it is visible! all that's left if to mate the engine harness to the car, wire in the o2 sensors, and knock sensor, and put a few terminals on. I've also moved several ugly wires that were lying around the engine bay, like the cruise control wires, the evap purge wires, and the trunk light wires. I also started putting the interior back together, the car has a radio again! I wish Issac hadn't dumped all that rain on my days off earlier this week, I'd be done with the harness if it hadn't.



ericjon262 MSG #71, 09-02-2012 11:00 PM
      Pulled the EVAP purge, Cruise control, and trunk light wiring out of sight. all of which will still be functional, and no wired were left behind in the body panels!



I also started to make my intercooler tank stand-in.









tank drops in from above



fits like a glove



and re-carpeted



Should look something like this when complete:



just add Turbo, and a little more cleanup on the harness in the battery box area.


Fieromotion (hevonojantila@gmail.com) MSG #72, 09-06-2012 04:15 AM
      Nice job.

Fieromotion (hevonojantila@gmail.com) MSG #73, 09-06-2012 04:47 AM
      Forgot to ask you about the clutch. You have a Centerforce dual friction clutch. Is it for Cavalier or something else? Did you have any clearance issues? I´m doing F23 and 3,4 DOHC swap and used Ram HD clutch for Fiero and had clearance issue which solved by taking a slight amount off from the transmission and three corners of the clutch. Planning also to add about 1 mm aluminum between the trans and engine. There is no touch at the moment but on operating temperature it could toch and this 1 mm could avoid it.
Do you still have the Thelin rear trans mount. I´m willing to buy it from you.
Keep on the good work and let us know the results.


ericjon262 MSG #74, 09-06-2012 12:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fieromotion:

Forgot to ask you about the clutch. You have a Centerforce dual friction clutch. Is it for Cavalier or something else? Did you have any clearance issues? I´m doing F23 and 3,4 DOHC swap and used Ram HD clutch for Fiero and had clearance issue which solved by taking a slight amount off from the transmission and three corners of the clutch. Planning also to add about 1 mm aluminum between the trans and engine. There is no touch at the moment but on operating temperature it could toch and this 1 mm could avoid it.
Do you still have the Thelin rear trans mount. I´m willing to buy it from you.
Keep on the good work and let us know the results.


I sold the trans mount to Carbon already. I haven't tried the clutch yet, it's a fiero getrag Dual friction, we'll see when we get there.



ericjon262 MSG #75, 09-09-2012 10:03 PM
      Turbo, knock sensor, and oil pressure sender installed/mounted today...





ericjon262 MSG #76, 09-11-2012 11:28 PM
      I will NEVER buy an automatic Fiero and convert to a 5 speed again after installing the clutch line! but alas, it is in, and secure, all that needs to be done is to hook it up to the master and slave, bleed it and go!

in other news, I started the intercooler mounting, and I'll try to finish it tomorrow.



ericjon262 MSG #77, 09-13-2012 11:25 AM
      well, I had the sway bar almost installed when I found out the mid bar clamps were the wrong size... addco support is getting me the right set of clamps free of charge though...



ericjon262 MSG #78, 09-13-2012 11:35 AM
     



Note the bolt holes.


ericjon262 MSG #79, 09-16-2012 12:22 AM
      I built my coilover's last night, still need to repaint the struts, but otherwise, they're done!

have to say though, I wasn't to happy with the HT motorsports kit. the SAE bolts on a metric car, and I had to take one of the sleeves and use a sanding drum to get it to ride on the strut right... the other sleeve fit both fine...



then I pulled the dash to run some new wires. (shift light, cruise control, and intercooler fans relay trigger)



ericjon262 MSG #80, 09-18-2012 01:54 AM
      since I had the dash out, I started prepping to be wrapped in some black vinyl I had laying around. just the top part. I'll get some pics and post them up later.



ericjon262 MSG #81, 09-19-2012 01:24 AM
      rebuilt my shifter today, but I have a new problem. Rodney's shift cables have the ball stud already pressed in, and it doesn't look as though it is easily removed without destroying the cable end, and the F23's ball is welded to the link... time for more welding, and re working... it'll let me kill two birds with one stone though, because the bracket holding my select cable in was too close to the ball, and made it hard to get into fifth and reverse. I'll post pictures tomorrow of how I fix it.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #82, 09-19-2012 08:11 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
rebuilt my shifter today, but I have a new problem. Rodney's shift cables have the ball stud already pressed in, and it doesn't look as though it is easily removed without destroying the cable end, and the F23's ball is welded to the link... time for more welding, and re working... it'll let me kill two birds with one stone though, because the bracket holding my select cable in was too close to the ball, and made it hard to get into fifth and reverse. I'll post pictures tomorrow of how I fix it.



I'd need to see a picture of what you're talking about for it to be clearer. I purchased my cables from The Fiero Store and they appeared to be just like Rodney's. I was pointing out at the time how nice they were because they were not only adjustable at the mount sleeve, they were also adjustable at the cup socket at the tranny end of the table. The OE cables are not adjustable at all except at the tranny.

Someone expressed desent about that ability in the cable suggesting it was inferior somehow, but when you're dealing with a custom application that characteristic is a plus.

There are two ball sizes at the Fiero tranny lever depending on what tranny you are using and from what I recall the Muncie 4 speed used both, one of each for the levers and the gate select on the Getrag the small cup which the F40 requires. I could be partly wrong about that but I know the cable with the end for the small cup comes in two different lengths and the one for the 5 spd is the longest.


ericjon262 MSG #83, 09-19-2012 12:37 PM
      Rodney offered to send me a end that didn't have the ball stud pressed in, but I need to fix the select gate either way so I turned him down.

Rodney's cables are pretty much non adjustable, there is a small amount of adjustment available on the ball end, but that's it. I've already had QC issues with The Fiero Stores parts, and customer service issues following the QC issues. I don't deal with the Fiero store anymore, I'll make my own parts and know the quality is good.

my issue is that I mounted the select cable to close to the shift shaft, so it can't pull it all the way into fifth and reverse.


ericjon262 MSG #84, 09-20-2012 12:49 AM
      shifter is pretty much done, DLC is wired in, and the car is sitting on 4 wheels for the first time in over a year...

BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #85, 09-20-2012 03:21 PM
      Couldnt you order the F23 cables from California push pull? They are fully adjustable.

ericjon262 MSG #86, 09-20-2012 03:35 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

Couldnt you order the F23 cables from California push pull? They are fully adjustable.


I designed the linkage around Isuzu cables that I got from mattwa for $15, it works fine now, just needed a little tweaking. the RD cables made a huge difference!



gtxbullet MSG #87, 09-20-2012 05:50 PM
      you sir, are my hero

keep the pics and updates coming.

I have a direct link to this thread on my desktop!!


ericjon262 MSG #88, 09-21-2012 12:36 AM
      well, here's an update for you! PCM is mounted!



I custom made a tray that is screwed with 8 self tapping sheet metal screws to the firewall. the PCM slides down into the lower part of the mount, and then a piece of angle aluminum bolts to the top part of the tray to secure the PCM in place.

Then, I got started on getting the PCM wired in to the car. so far, what was the fuel pump relay is in, along with the A/c clutch relay and the DLC.

it may not seem like much, but it was quite a bit of work. Hopefully the harness will be complete by the end of the week, here is how I left it tonight.






ericjon262 MSG #89, 09-23-2012 02:13 AM
      trunk popper wire re-routed down the passenger side of the decklid, C500 almost finished being wired in, Relay control relay wired, fuel pump, I/C Pump, and I/C fan relays almost done.



and another "how I left it" pic.




I'll go out and say the Harness is about 15-20% complete.



ericjon262 MSG #90, 09-26-2012 12:54 AM
      the harness is probably about 90% complete, I'd like to try to finish it tomorrow, but we'll see...

ericjon262 MSG #91, 09-26-2012 11:29 PM
     

Almost done... all that's left is a few diodes, and some misc. connections...


ericjon262 MSG #92, 09-28-2012 12:42 AM
      Took a break from the harness...





Mocked up the downpipe in 3" PVC, the real deal will probably be stainless.

also got the wrap job mostly finished on the dashboard.



carbon MSG #93, 09-28-2012 08:31 AM
      What's in the groove... is it staying?

ericjon262 MSG #94, 09-28-2012 04:02 PM
      it's 1/4 inch aluminum fuel line, it's held in be evenly spaced pop rivets.



ericjon262 MSG #95, 09-28-2012 07:42 PM
      well guys, I keep looking at the manifolds I have, and thinking about how they are a really poor match for my engines potential, and I've made the decision to continue onto making a custom set of headers. 1.5" 16ga mild steel, 3/8" flanges, and 3-1 collectors(1.5" in, 2.25 out) I'll probably reduce the 2.25 to 2.00 out of the collector for better velocity going into the turbo, but we'll see once I get come pipe in my hands.

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #96, 09-29-2012 07:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

well guys, I keep looking at the manifolds I have, and thinking about how they are a really poor match for my engines potential, and I've made the decision to continue onto making a custom set of headers. 1.5" 16ga mild steel, 3/8" flanges, and 3-1 collectors(1.5" in, 2.25 out) I'll probably reduce the 2.25 to 2.00 out of the collector for better velocity going into the turbo, but we'll see once I get come pipe in my hands.


Speaking from experience, keep it simple, a nice blended log design like fingers merging into a pipe is still good. if you're going to build headers with mild steel you better do 14 Ga and shield it as opposed to heat wrapping, I can promise you the mild steel will not hold up well to the heat if you wrap it. It'll last for a while but unless relief points are built in they will warp and flake under the wrap. Leaks are hard to find with the wrap and will result in intermittent poor, or sluggish performance intermittently making the problem hard to resolve. It's very discouraging to have very good performance one day and noticeably less the next with no idea as to why.



ericjon262 MSG #97, 09-29-2012 07:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Speaking from experience, keep it simple, a nice blended log design like fingers merging into a pipe is still good. if you're going to build headers with mild steel you better do 14 Ga and shield it as opposed to heat wrapping, I can promise you the mild steel will not hold up well to the heat if you wrap it. It'll last for a while but unless relief points are built in they will warp and flake under the wrap. Leaks are hard to find with the wrap and will result in intermittent poor, or sluggish performance intermittently making the problem hard to resolve. It's very discouraging to have very good performance one day and noticeably less the next with no idea as to why.



they will be built right, I'm going to design them/tack them together, and then have them professionally welded.


on a side note, do you know where I can get 14 ga mandrel bent tubing? 1.5" or 1.625"



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #98, 09-29-2012 08:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
they will be built right, I'm going to design them/tack them together, and then have them professionally welded.


on a side note, do you know where I can get 14 ga mandrel bent tubing? 1.5" or 1.625"



http://www.stans-headers.com/parts.htm

You will not likely have a problem with the welds, it's just mild steel and it will see higher temps for a longer duration with a turbo and that will take its toll regardless of who welds it up. Cast iron can absorb more heat because of the increased wall thickness and as long as it is not wrapped you are less likely to have a problem with it. One source for turbo manifold building is weld elbows. Try McMaster Carr for those.


ericjon262 MSG #99, 09-29-2012 08:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
http://www.stans-headers.com/parts.htm

You will not likely have a problem with the welds, it's just mild steel and it will see higher temps for a longer duration with a turbo and that will take its toll regardless of who welds it up. Cast iron can absorb more heat because of the increased wall thickness and as long as it is not wrapped you are less likely to have a problem with it. One source for turbo manifold building is weld elbows. Try McMaster Carr for those.



my problem isn't the material thickness, it's that my welder is a POS, and doesn't have a gas hookup... the coldest setting is also too hot for most of the tubing I've tried welding...



ericjon262 MSG #100, 09-29-2012 11:27 PM
      Ladies and gentlemen, with the exception of the grounds, maf /iat sensor connector, and final taping, the powertrain harness is complete!



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #101, 09-30-2012 07:06 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Ladies and gentlemen, with the exception of the grounds, maf /iat sensor connector, and final taping, the powertrain harness is complete!



Not until you spend another 45 min to an hour back probing the PCM plug pins against the sensor plug pins and grounds to make sure you didn't cross any by accident. Good job, can't wait to hear about the results when its up and running.



ericjon262 MSG #102, 09-30-2012 12:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Not until you spend another 45 min to an hour back probing the PCM plug pins against the sensor plug pins and grounds to make sure you didn't cross any by accident. Good job, can't wait to hear about the results when its up and running.


like I said, it's done.


ericjon262 MSG #103, 10-07-2012 12:18 PM
      woo hoo! I'm getting a set of forged pistons and H beam rods for the car now! this should be good!



ericjon262 MSG #104, 10-12-2012 11:16 PM
     



ericjon262 MSG #105, 10-19-2012 08:47 PM
      ordering my header parts as soon as the quote comes back!



ericjon262 MSG #106, 10-26-2012 10:42 PM
      I put "LS7" lifter springs in my stock lifters to hopefully improve the high rpm valve events



Right side is stock, left is the LS7



24 lifters pistons.



check ball and check ball spring retainer left side has the retainer removed.



Check ball springs are also tighter than stock.



I would just use the whole "LS7" lifter, but they are taller (this is a pic of just the piston, stock on the right, "LS7" on left.



lifter piston with the main spring installed on the check ball spring retainer



then the lifter body slides over the piston and spring



and now we have the whole assembly upside down.



piston in the body



this thin disc then gets placed in the piston.



disc installed



then the pushrod socket.



installed



that is the piston retainer, it fits into a groove cut into the top of the main body.



Push the piston down in there, slide in the retainer, and then you are done!



should hopefully be good to 8000 RPMS I hope.



ericjon262 MSG #107, 11-02-2012 11:14 PM
      I started making my a2w intercooler mounts, still needs a couple of gussets, and the other side(not pictured) re-done (measure twice cut once!)







ericjon262 MSG #108, 11-03-2012 06:26 PM
      Intercooler mount is almost done, just needs a couple of strait legs trimmed down, cleanup, and paint.

Please excuse the crappy pictures, I'll see about getting better ones tomorrow.









ericjon262 MSG #109, 11-03-2012 08:16 PM
      more pics, I went out and finished the welding, trimming, and bracing.











BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #110, 11-03-2012 09:12 PM
      Looking good! The swap, that is.

ericjon262 MSG #111, 11-03-2012 09:40 PM
      thanks! I like putting the time into making it myself, I keep digging deeper holes for myself though... turbos cams, pistons....



BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #112, 11-04-2012 05:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

thanks! I like putting the time into making it myself, I keep digging deeper holes for myself though... turbos cams, pistons....



LOL I am in the same boat with the 3.4TDC car. It was supposed to be an R&R, clutch and service. Now its MegaSquirt MS3, ING-6, All new wiring, battery relocation, exhaust, CAI, tune, suspension work etc etc.


ericjon262 MSG #113, 11-04-2012 05:49 PM
      I did another test fit of the intercooler, and I think I may need to trim one of the corners, it gets a little close to the crossmember on the cradle...



ericjon262 MSG #114, 11-04-2012 10:59 PM
      need to modify the bracket a little, the corner down by the frame is about 1/2" from the crossmember.



I'll cut is at 45* across the corner and weld a angled corner to add about an inch of clearance.



ericjon262 MSG #115, 11-10-2012 10:51 PM
      started the heat exchange mount today, I'm debating on whether or not to run fans on the core.





The "H" frame will be welded to the a/c condenser support, and the heat exchanger will bolt to the frame.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #116, 11-11-2012 07:12 PM
      I never added the fan and don't feel there is a significant benefit to it considering it would only be effective when the car is stopped at a light. The water heats up so slowly during this time that long before the temp increase becomes significant you'll be moving again to cool it back down. In bumper to bumper traffic you can't go fast enough to need the benefit anyway. Without the intercooler at operating temps, the hot turbo added about 30 deg to the inlet temps and I recall cruise temps in the 130s during the Summer. The intercooler kept temps below 100. usually at about 10 deg above ambient and if you have at least a 2 gal coolant capacity you'll have no problem maintaining that considering I'm still running ~1 gal.

The temp stability (I setup a history table for it in Tunerpro) is amazing. Since you don't have impedence from a GT bumper I'd expect your heat transfer to be a little better than mine.


ericjon262 MSG #117, 11-16-2012 08:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

I never added the fan and don't feel there is a significant benefit to it considering it would only be effective when the car is stopped at a light. The water heats up so slowly during this time that long before the temp increase becomes significant you'll be moving again to cool it back down. In bumper to bumper traffic you can't go fast enough to need the benefit anyway. Without the intercooler at operating temps, the hot turbo added about 30 deg to the inlet temps and I recall cruise temps in the 130s during the Summer. The intercooler kept temps below 100. usually at about 10 deg above ambient and if you have at least a 2 gal coolant capacity you'll have no problem maintaining that considering I'm still running ~1 gal.

The temp stability (I setup a history table for it in Tunerpro) is amazing. Since you don't have impedence from a GT bumper I'd expect your heat transfer to be a little better than mine.



I was starting to think I wouldn't need them, esp with the size of my reservoir, which should be here tomorrow!



ericjon262 MSG #118, 11-18-2012 12:14 AM
      Finally got my tank in!















Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #119, 11-18-2012 06:33 AM
      That's a nice tank. It's obvious it's going to get some ice at some point so here's something you should consider in place of a cooling fan on the exchanger, an electric heater bypass valve to help get the most out of an ice bath. You don't want ice cold coolant going through the heat exchanger and getting warmed up toward ambient temps.

ericjon262 MSG #120, 11-18-2012 10:35 AM
      a valve was in the plans for sure, but I'm thinking I will use Ice packs instead of actual ice, I'll explain later when I'm not at work.



ericjon262 MSG #121, 11-19-2012 09:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

a valve was in the plans for sure, but I'm thinking I will use Ice packs instead of actual ice, I'll explain later when I'm not at work.



I was thinking about using "waterless coolant" in both my engine, and intercooler system, and I wouldn't want to dilute the coolant with true Ice, so Ice packs could be used, and possibly provide better cooling than Ice.


Edit:

PAGE 4!!!



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #122, 11-19-2012 11:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I was thinking about using "waterless coolant" in both my engine, and intercooler system, and I wouldn't want to dilute the coolant with true Ice, so Ice packs could be used, and possibly provide better cooling than Ice.


Edit:

PAGE 4!!!


Make sure you look into the thermal characteristics since water cools best with a little addititive to keep it from freezing. As for ice packs vs ice, about the only difference will be time to reach the same temperature in which case ice will win due to surface area exposure, then the packs from a stand point of efficiency and cost, some place the ice still in the bag inside the tank.


ericjon262 MSG #123, 11-19-2012 11:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Make sure you look into the thermal characteristics since water cools best with a little addititive to keep it from freezing. As for ice packs vs ice, about the only difference will be time to reach the same temperature in which case ice will win due to surface area exposure, then the packs from a stand point of efficiency and cost, some place the ice still in the bag inside the tank.


from what I've read, it's about the same as far as the thermal characteristics are concerned. I'm unsure though about what would heat up quicker. either way, I don't think it would be a problem, the tank holds a ton of coolant and if I somehow managed to overcome the coolant and heat exchanger, I've got a WAY bigger problem on my hands!



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #124, 11-20-2012 12:24 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
from what I've read, it's about the same as far as the thermal characteristics are concerned. I'm unsure though about what would heat up quicker. either way, I don't think it would be a problem, the tank holds a ton of coolant and if I somehow managed to overcome the coolant and heat exchanger, I've got a WAY bigger problem on my hands!


I was refering to the time it takes for the water to cool down near the temperature of the ice vs the much bulkier ice packs. You're not going to exceed your cooling capacity with the size tank you have by a long shot. I wonder if you could get a bag of dry ice in the tank, you'd have to leave the top off to allow it to evap.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-20-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #125, 11-20-2012 12:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


I was refering to the time it takes for the water to cool down near the temperature of the ice vs the much bulkier ice packs. You're not going to exceed your cooling capacity with the size tank you have by a long shot. I wonder if you could get a bag of dry ice in the tank, you'd have to leave the top off to allow it to evap.



or just install a vent in the tank. I'm sure I could fit dry ice in there, the hole in the top is 8" in diameter.


ericjon262 MSG #126, 12-23-2012 05:53 PM
      been a while since a real update...

Heat exchanger installed



there was a frame horn in the way of the ports, and it doesn't appear to support anything.



so I cut it off...



Pump installed



a few pretty welds...

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.



intercooler core mounted (need to sandblast and paint all of my mounts...)

and I also got my battery tray cut out, need to get a tube of 5200 before I can finish it...


-262


ericjon262 MSG #127, 12-27-2012 12:09 AM
      got my heads back! gained over 17% (average)on the intakes, and over 11%(average) on the exhaust!

peak flow on the intakes 250 CFM (up from 222) and 191 CFM on the exhaust(up from 174)

-262



ericjon262 MSG #128, 12-27-2012 12:38 AM
     

ericjon262 MSG #129, 12-30-2012 11:46 PM
     











This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.





Corpsmen Ed (eadams444@sbcglobal.net) MSG #130, 12-30-2012 11:52 PM
      Holy crap, dude. This build is awesome. Now you have me thinking of doing something crazy different for my swap.

ericjon262 MSG #131, 12-30-2012 11:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Corpsmen Ed:

Holy crap, dude. This build is awesome. Now you have me thinking of doing something crazy different for my swap.


Thanks!

I'm getting ready to start modding the Upper intake manifold to accept a 75 mm LS1 throttle body, and hopefully increase flow and velocity.


Cliff Pennock (admin@fieroforum.com) MSG #132, 12-31-2012 05:35 AM
      Thread title changed per OP's request.

ericjon262 MSG #133, 12-31-2012 10:31 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:

Thread title changed per OP's request.


Thanks Cliff.


ericjon262 MSG #134, 01-02-2013 12:59 AM
      who said you can't mig weld aluminum without a spool gun!



but, in all fairness, it's a royal pain without one, I'm going to try to get one now though!



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #135, 01-02-2013 07:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

who said you can't mig weld aluminum without a spool gun!

but, in all fairness, it's a royal pain without one, I'm going to try to get one now though!



You can, it's just very difficult with thin wire (.023) and a Mig unit setup for steel wire. During the purchase of a replacement hose and trigger, I discovered there was a special aluminum welding kit and purchased it. I don't have it in front of me but the most unique thing about it is the nylon liner that is to be inserted in the hose in place of the steel spiral liner to reduce drag on the wire that causes it to wod up in the unit at the feed point. I've had the kit which came with a good size spool and slag brush and some other things I can't recall but I have yet to try and use it. I did attempt it long ago with the standard setup and as stated it was a horrible mess, the unit jammed easily.

What you have displayed is very encouraging, I just don't have any aluminum welding jobs at the moment to try out the aluminum welding kit and yes I have a tank of the proper shielding gas for it. Heck I might make my own intercooler water tank if it works out okay.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-03-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #136, 01-02-2013 08:20 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

who said you can't mig weld aluminum without a spool gun!

but, in all fairness, it's a royal pain without one, I'm going to try to get one now though!



Here is my aluminum mig weld w/o a spool gun!


I used the aluminum conversion kit with the plastic liner and non-grooved rollers. The biggest challenge is when the wire doesn't push, reduce the roller tension vs. making it tighter. The issue with the feed is almost always too much roller pressure deforming the aluminum so when it get to the tip it can't fit through the hole. I did all my welding with .035 wire, but I did pick up a couple spools and tips of .045 to see if it works better. If I didn't like my welder so much (ProMig 175) I would buy a new one with a spool gun, but I like it and want to keep it for now. Maybe I will try adapting a spool gun to this welded some day when I need to do more aluminum welding.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #137, 01-02-2013 09:11 AM
      The thickness of the wire is more a function of your welder's amp rating. I run a 110 v 90/100 amp unit for versatility so .045 is pushing it if an extension cord is involved. The downside of a spool gun is that it would have been impossible for me to do some of the in car mock ups I did for close tolerance clearance.

ericjon262 MSG #138, 01-02-2013 12:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Here is my aluminum mig weld w/o a spool gun!


I used the aluminum conversion kit with the plastic liner and non-grooved rollers. The biggest challenge is when the wire doesn't push, reduce the roller tension vs. making it tighter. The issue with the feed is almost always too much roller pressure deforming the aluminum so when it get to the tip it can't fit through the hole. I did all my welding with .035 wire, but I did pick up a couple spools and tips of .045 to see if it works better. If I didn't like my welder so much (ProMig 175) I would buy a new one with a spool gun, but I like it and want to keep it for now. Maybe I will try adapting a spool gun to this welded some day when I need to do more aluminum welding.


Got a part number for the conversion kit? I have a Pro Mig 180 and that sounds a whole lot cheaper than a spool gun! ($250)

Thanks-

Eric


Justinbart MSG #139, 01-02-2013 01:11 PM
      I tried to mig aluminum once. It kept balling up on the roller anytime the wire would hit the surface I was welding. I looked into the kit for ~$70 but never got it. I've always heard you really need a spool gun for mig welding aluminum. looked into spool guns and I decided I would rather put that money towards a nice TIG setup.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #140, 01-02-2013 01:31 PM
      http://www.htpweld.com/prod.../accessories/a5.html

Scroll down to the aluminum kit. Glad I looked over the intro as it has some pointers that I was not aware of. I also hope that I didn't toss the nozzle that came with it on the gun for general purpose use. Now that I think about it, since I got the new gun and kit at the same time I'm sure I didn't. I certainly wasn't aware of the need for higher gas pressure.


fieroguru MSG #141, 01-02-2013 01:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Got a part number for the conversion kit? I have a Pro Mig 180 and that sounds a whole lot cheaper than ($250)

Thanks-

Eric


For the Pro Mig 175 the part # is k664-2 and costs about $80

The Pro Mig 180 is a completely different machine (newer/revised design). From the manual it will directly interface with the Lincoln Magnum 100 SG spool gun, but the Pro Mig 175 doesn't have that option (spool gun, but there is at least one guy who has one running with a spool gun). Might try searching ebay for aluminum conversion kits to see if any of them list compatibility with the 180.


fieroguru MSG #142, 01-02-2013 01:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

The thickness of the wire is more a function of your welder's amp rating. I run a 110 v 90/100 amp unit for versatility so .045 is pushing it if an extension cord is involved. The downside of a spool gun is that it would have been impossible for me to do some of the in car mock ups I did for close tolerance clearance.


True, but for those of use with 175+ amp machines... we can weld using thicker wire. First thing you should do to every houshold welder is replace the power cord with a longer one made from 10ga wire. I run a 20' power cord on my welder w/o issue. Just go to lowes and find one of the large yellow RV cords 50' is about $100, but there are shorter options. Cut the ends off and add the right end and wire it into the welder. With 10ga chord, you won't have the same issues of trying to use a normal extension.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #143, 01-02-2013 02:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
True, but for those of use with 175+ amp machines... we can weld using thicker wire. First thing you should do to every houshold welder is replace the power cord with a longer one made from 10ga wire. I run a 20' power cord on my welder w/o issue. Just go to lowes and find one of the large yellow RV cords 50' is about $100, but there are shorter options. Cut the ends off and add the right end and wire it into the welder. With 10ga chord, you won't have the same issues of trying to use a normal extension.


I have that cord already which solved the problem, but it's such a good piece of equipment I'm not going to cut it. I got mine from Home Depot which also has bulk cord by the foot in various gauge and what I used for the Plasma cutter which came without a plug end. .023 wire welds so easily I never bother with anything thicker.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-02-2013).]

ericjon262 MSG #144, 01-02-2013 10:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

I tried to mig aluminum once. It kept balling up on the roller anytime the wire would hit the surface I was welding. I looked into the kit for ~$70 but never got it. I've always heard you really need a spool gun for mig welding aluminum. looked into spool guns and I decided I would rather put that money towards a nice TIG setup.



I'd love to get a nice TIG, but the funds aren't there and I won't have a place to keep it before too long (boot camp in May...) if I hadn't got such a killer deal on my Pro-Mig 180, I probably wouldn't have bought it.



ericjon262 MSG #145, 01-03-2013 12:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


You can, it's just very difficult with thin wire (.023) and a Mig unit setup of for steel wire. During the purchase of a replacement hose and trigger, I discovered there was a special aluminum welding kit and purchased it. I don't have it in front of me but the most unique thing about it is the nylon liner that is to be inserted in the hose in place of the steel spiral liner to reduce drag on the wire that causes it to wod up in the unit at the feed point. I've had the kit which came with a good size spool and slag brush and some other things I can't recall but I have yet to try and use it. I did attempt it long ago with the standard setup and as stated it was a horrible mess, the unit jammed easily.

What you have displayed is very encouraging, I just don't have any aluminum welding jobs at the moment to try out the aluminum welding kit and yes I have a tank of the proper shielding gas for it. Heck I might make my own intercooler water tank if it works out okay.



the steel wire setup will work, but it does bind super easy, I wasn't having trouble with the .030 wire, I was using though. I did find the cast intake seemed much easier to weld then some flat stock I picked up at bLowe's (yes I sanded the cladding off and wiped with acetone) but I could have had the settings on the machine wrong for the thinner stuff.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #146, 01-03-2013 05:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
the steel wire setup will work, but it does bind super easy, I wasn't having trouble with the .030 wire, I was using though. I did find the cast intake seemed much easier to weld then some flat stock I picked up at bLowe's (yes I sanded the cladding off and wiped with acetone) but I could have had the settings on the machine wrong for the thinner stuff.


The thicker wire helps and seeing such a good job on that manifold opens the doors to other ideas. About 2 years ago someone here was working on a custom intake to support a supercharger on top of a 3500 and just as the build was starting to get interesting, he dropped off the face of the earth. You better hurry, May will be here "tomorrow".



ericjon262 MSG #147, 01-03-2013 10:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


The thicker wire helps and seeing such a good job on that manifold opens the doors to other ideas. About 2 years ago someone here was working on a custom intake to support a supercharger on top of a 3500 and just as the build was starting to get interesting, he dropped off the face of the earth. You better hurry, May will be here "tomorrow".


yes it will be...



ericjon262 MSG #148, 01-11-2013 02:01 AM
     

Quick and dirty sketchup of the headers, I was going to do a 3-1 style instead of a log, but these should do fine for what I need, and look good doing it.



fieroguru MSG #149, 01-11-2013 08:57 AM
      Looks good!

You could taper the main tube across all the primaries like this:



ericjon262 MSG #150, 01-11-2013 09:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Looks good!

You could taper the main tube across all the primaries like this:



I thought about doing that, but I want a 2" hotside, and the cone I found would end up at about 3.5" for the output, if this was going to be N/A, I would go for it, but as a turbo car, I want to keep velocity higher.



ericjon262 MSG #151, 01-11-2013 11:50 PM
      Alright, it's on! I just put through an order with columbia river mandrel bending for the pipe for the hotside! hopefully I will have the pipe in time for my weekend off!



ericjon262 MSG #152, 01-27-2013 11:46 PM
      Got to work on the hotside today...

I started by cutting a U bend in half

Then I cut a side off

Then I welded the cutoff back on 180*

Then I made a window and started welding.

Rinse and repeat...


Almost done.


ericjon262 MSG #153, 01-28-2013 04:26 PM
      A little closer...



ericjon262 MSG #154, 01-30-2013 12:19 AM
      got a DHP powrtuner, going to start trying to get something for a base tune started.

ericjon262 MSG #155, 02-02-2013 01:56 AM
      well, I've started working on modding a 3400 bin file for my 3500, so far, I have:

1. deleted EGR
2. imported Maf tables for LS1 Maf
3. changed the IFR for my 60 PPH injectors
4. bumped up hot idle to 800 RPM in Accessories>IAC>IAC desired idle speed. for the cam.

I'm not 100% sure I got the EGR delete right, I lowers the Disable thresholds to 0, and raised the enable thresholds to maximum (speed=255, TPS=100.9961) would this delete EGR? I assume I also need to remove the DTC so I won't get an SES light correct?

Thanks-

Eric



ericjon262 MSG #156, 02-02-2013 06:49 PM
      Got a little bit done on the hotside before it got dark outside....





not permanent, I'm going to try to find a 2" V-band clamp, because I won't be able to fit a ball and socket in there


ericjon262 MSG #157, 02-06-2013 10:56 PM
      A little more progress one the hotside today.









82-T/A [At Work] MSG #158, 02-10-2013 10:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:






Man... this picture reminds me of what it was that I liked about the "2m" body style so much... I used to have a 1984 Fiero 2m4 SE, and damn it looked good. Pontiac really got that styling right. Don't get me wrong, I love my 1987 Fiero SE/V6... but that 2m6 you've got there just looks bat-**** awesome...


Here's mine, in it's hey-day before the paint started fading and I tore it down:




Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #159, 02-10-2013 11:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

well, I've started working on modding a 3400 bin file for my 3500, so far, I have:

1. deleted EGR
2. imported Maf tables for LS1 Maf
3. changed the IFR for my 60 PPH injectors
4. bumped up hot idle to 800 RPM in Accessories>IAC>IAC desired idle speed. for the cam.

I'm not 100% sure I got the EGR delete right, I lowers the Disable thresholds to 0, and raised the enable thresholds to maximum (speed=255, TPS=100.9961) would this delete EGR? I assume I also need to remove the DTC so I won't get an SES light correct?

Thanks-

Eric



Just curious about how you've planned to manage boost with a 3400 code mask that has no boosted application that I'm aware of unless there's a switch for a 2 bar MAP in it?


ericjon262 MSG #160, 02-10-2013 12:20 PM
      you have to manually change the Map sensor values. My main concern right now, is that I have a 3 bar MAP sensor, and I'm told that some of the PCMs similar to what I'm using can only read up to 2 bar... Tiny tuner let me input the values for the 3 bar though, so we will see what happens when I plug everything in and program it... I'll hook the sensor up to my air compressor and run a scan (with the engine off) and see if it stops reading at 2 BAR. if I have to, I'll import the L67 values for it's 2 BAR, and get a 2 BAR MAP sensor.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #161, 02-10-2013 01:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
you have to manually change the Map sensor values. My main concern right now, is that I have a 3 bar MAP sensor, and I'm told that some of the PCMs similar to what I'm using can only read up to 2 bar... Tiny tuner let me input the values for the 3 bar though, so we will see what happens when I plug everything in and program it... I'll hook the sensor up to my air compressor and run a scan (with the engine off) and see if it stops reading at 2 BAR. if I have to, I'll import the L67 values for it's 2 BAR, and get a 2 BAR MAP sensor.


I find it hard to believe it's that simple, I get the idea of scaling the MAP values which basically requires the natural aspiration portion be condensed into half of the MAP table for a 2 bar, however it stands to reason that you would need to do this for every MAP associated table in the code or risk problems with fueling and spark advance as a result. I've run boost many times in the past with a 1 bar MAP sensor, but I wouldn't dare try it with a 3 bar MAP in non boost related code, the reason being the 3 bar MAP has even less resolution than the 2 bar MAP. Make sure you are working with someone that has succeeded at doing this with the code.


ericjon262 MSG #162, 02-10-2013 04:27 PM
      it's going to require the tables to be re-tuned for sure, that will happen once the road tune starts.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #163, 02-10-2013 08:12 PM
      You really need expansion joints between the logs and the turbo. I did not use them on my first exhaust and each heat/cool cycle would bend the exhaust and turbo until things started breaking.

This is the 2nd attempt. It works great now.


This is how I found them in the junkyard. They are found on crossover pipes on front wheel drive GM cars.



ericjon262 MSG #164, 02-10-2013 08:29 PM
      I hope I can fit them in the space I have... I was planning on it, then I changed my mind, then I started thinking about adding them again...



ericjon262 MSG #165, 02-10-2013 09:41 PM
      Here are the changes I have made to the 3400 bin so far...

1 imported LS1 MAF(dhp)
2 Change IFR (DHP)(old/new)insert percent in DHP
3 trans type 0(manual) (tt)
4 always use default baro set to 1 (TT)
5 set default max map to 300 (tt)
6 set map sensor scaler to 300 (TT)
7 set map sensor offset to -11.25 (TT)
8 number of cat tests per trip set to 0 (TT)
9 set p0135 p0137 p0138 p0140 p0141 p0401 and p1406 to no reporting (3) (DHP)
10 set high RPM threshold to 8500 RPM(TT)
11 set torque abuse drive injector disable to 0 under tq mngmnt>fuel(tt)
12 high rpm fuel cut set to 8500(TT)
13 set tq abuse pn inj dsbl to 0 (TT)
14 set tq abuse drv inj dsabl to 0 (TT)
15 set TCS inj dsbl to 0 on all TCS levels (TT)
16 set dsbl all inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
17 set dsbl 1 inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
18 set dsbl 2 inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
19 set TCS nbl to 300 (TT)
20 set tq diff score inj dsbl to 0 (TT)
21 TCS sprk rtrd to 0 (TT)
22 set min rpm for mph shtff to 9000 (TT)
23 TCS xtr sprk rtrd to 0 (TT)
24 tq abuse spd nbl set to 255 (TT)
25 tq abs sprk rtrd set to 0 (TT)
26 tq diff scr rtrd set to 0 (TT)
27 tq abs rpm nbl set to 9000(TT)
28 tq abs TP nbl set to 104/105(TT)
29 EGR air temp dsbl set to 300 (tt)
30 turned off all auto trans related codes(P703, and P705-p785)(DHP)
31 dsbl trans tq redux (TT)
32 bypass extra spk rtrd set to 00 (yes)(TT)
33 dsbl dfco MPH set to 255(TT)
34 dsbl dfco mph CM set to 255 (TT)
35 dfco nbl CT set to 200
36 AIR pmp nbl CT set to 200

Next I'm going to match the P/N idle and RPM settings to the same speeds as the drive settings, because the car won't have a park position.


ericjon262 MSG #166, 02-11-2013 12:14 AM
      hudini:

what size pipe was used in the GM crossovers?


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #167, 02-11-2013 05:42 AM
      Buy the size you need, they're available from the same place you purchased your tubing. Aftermarket expansion joints are usually sturdier than OE because they also have a braided steel mesh around the bellows. Although GM has done a better job with them by adding a sheet metal support underneath, the Turbo Grand Prix bellows had a history of cracking and coming apart. If you want to use OE which I've never had a problem with like what's pictured above, get the crossover from the 3500 and up cars as they are larger than what was placed on the 3400, ~1.75-2.00" if needed, I didn't measure it. You may also find the better joint in the exhaust pipe of some imports as they are usually braided also.

It's 4" long, the camera is bending the picture in auto focus, it also has an inner interlocking liner for smooth airflow through it as opposed to exposed louvers.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-11-2013).]

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #168, 02-11-2013 05:56 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Here are the changes I have made to the 3400 bin so far...

1 imported LS1 MAF(dhp)
2 Change IFR (DHP)(old/new)insert percent in DHP
3 trans type 0(manual) (tt)
4 always use default baro set to 1 (TT)
5 set default max map to 300 (tt)
6 set map sensor scaler to 300 (TT)
7 set map sensor offset to -11.25 (TT)
8 number of cat tests per trip set to 0 (TT)
9 set p0135 p0137 p0138 p0140 p0141 p0401 and p1406 to no reporting (3) (DHP)
10 set high RPM threshold to 8500 RPM(TT)
11 set torque abuse drive injector disable to 0 under tq mngmnt>fuel(tt)
12 high rpm fuel cut set to 8500(TT)
13 set tq abuse pn inj dsbl to 0 (TT)
14 set tq abuse drv inj dsabl to 0 (TT)
15 set TCS inj dsbl to 0 on all TCS levels (TT)
16 set dsbl all inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
17 set dsbl 1 inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
18 set dsbl 2 inj hgh mph to 255(TT)
19 set TCS nbl to 300 (TT)
20 set tq diff score inj dsbl to 0 (TT)
21 TCS sprk rtrd to 0 (TT)
22 set min rpm for mph shtff to 9000 (TT)
23 TCS xtr sprk rtrd to 0 (TT)
24 tq abuse spd nbl set to 255 (TT)
25 tq abs sprk rtrd set to 0 (TT)
26 tq diff scr rtrd set to 0 (TT)
27 tq abs rpm nbl set to 9000(TT)
28 tq abs TP nbl set to 104/105(TT)
29 EGR air temp dsbl set to 300 (tt)
30 turned off all auto trans related codes(P703, and P705-p785)(DHP)
31 dsbl trans tq redux (TT)
32 bypass extra spk rtrd set to 00 (yes)(TT)
33 dsbl dfco MPH set to 255(TT)
34 dsbl dfco mph CM set to 255 (TT)
35 dfco nbl CT set to 200
36 AIR pmp nbl CT set to 200

Next I'm going to match the P/N idle and RPM settings to the same speeds as the drive settings, because the car won't have a park position.


As much struggling as I have done over the years figuring out problems with adjusting boosted 8F, OBD I code, and I'm still learning, I have to say you are juggling broken bottles here. This is a step beyond unorthodox, bordering on the Twilight Zone of tuning. I mistakenly entered the wrong values under PE in the first tune of my engine and crippled it before I ever saw what it could really do. If there is a code mask that you can use designed for boost that's what you should use as this is too risky.



ericjon262 MSG #169, 02-11-2013 01:11 PM
      I am aware that the bellows are available in the aftermarket, the problem I am running into is space, I don' t have a 4" strait run that I can put a flex joint in, on either bank... so I am trying to find a pair in 2" that are under 3" in length. the GM ones look like they may work, and if the do, I'll see if the dealer can get a pair for me.



ericjon262 MSG #170, 02-11-2013 01:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


As much struggling as I have done over the years figuring out problems with adjusting boosted 8F, OBD I code, and I'm still learning, I have to say you are juggling broken bottles here. This is a step beyond unorthodox, bordering on the Twilight Zone of tuning. I mistakenly entered the wrong values under PE in the first tune of my engine and crippled it before I ever saw what it could really do. If there is a code mask that you can use designed for boost that's what you should use as this is too risky.


the PCM I am using was also used by 3800SC motors, and the bulk of the changes that I have made pertain to running a manual transmission instead of an automatic. things like making park and neutral act the same way as drive does, and removing fuel cutoffs for RPM/Speed. I haven't begun digging into the fuel and spark tables yet. I'll start on those once the engine is running, and just take it one step at a time.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #171, 02-11-2013 01:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I am aware that the bellows are available in the aftermarket, the problem I am running into is space, I don' t have a 4" strait run that I can put a flex joint in, on either bank... so I am trying to find a pair in 2" that are under 3" in length. the GM ones look like they may work, and if the do, I'll see if the dealer can get a pair for me.


That's a lot of money to throw away at the dealer for a crossover to cut up as that's the only way you'll be able to get it. Your crossover being as long as it is will probably be fine as it is because the extra length of pipe allows for some flexibility, adding one bellows joint would probably more than suffice. If you look at Hudini's crossover you'll see that it is short and has more of a linear opposing expansion arrangement, where yours is more of a scissor type arrangement.

You don't have to have a perfectly straight section, you can get a bellows one size up that slips over the main pipe with enough room to accomodate a little bit of a curve, cut a small space in the main pipe or better yet make it a slip joint which GM did with some or all of their bellows then weld the bellows ends to the main pipe enclosing the slip/expansion area.

Those joints will be more crucial if you wrap your exhaust, I discourage you from doing that in favor of shielding or some type of heat blanket. I've made a number of mild steel exhaust manifolds using 14 ga steel and they don't do well over the long hall wrapped behind a turbo.


ericjon262 MSG #172, 02-11-2013 01:36 PM
      I'm wanting to have the entire hotside ceramic coated depending on time/cost, but we'll see.



aaron88 MSG #173, 02-11-2013 01:48 PM
      This is an FYI. You may already know about this but I thought I'd add it in here. I discovered on two transmissions that had exhaust running close to the aluminum casting. One was a stock Fiero with a stainless steel exhaust with no shielding. The other was a turbo setup, again no shielding. In both those cases the aluminum bellhousing had spider cracks all over it. My conclusion was that the heat cycles were too much for the aluminum which is very week at high temperatures. The cracking had not caused a failure but I could only assume that eventually it would have.

This is why manufacturers use double walled tubing on cross overs and a lot of the time on the headers too. To keep the heat away from the aluminum. Especially the transmission which does not have cooling in the bell housing.


.


ericjon262 MSG #174, 02-11-2013 01:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by aaron88:

This is an FYI. You may already know about this but I thought I'd add it in here. I discovered on two transmissions that had exhaust running close to the aluminum casting. One was a stock Fiero with a stainless steel exhaust with no shielding. The other was a turbo setup, again no shielding. In both those cases the aluminum bellhousing had spider cracks all over it. My conclusion was that the heat cycles were too much for the aluminum which is very week at high temperatures. The cracking had not caused a failure but I could only assume that eventually it would have.

This is why manufacturers use double walled tubing on cross overs and a lot of the time on the headers too. To keep the heat away from the aluminum. Especially the transmission which does not have cooling in the bell housing.


.


I had never noticed anything like that before, but I was planning on ceramic coating, which helps with heat, and possibly some kind of heat shield if necessary.



ericjon262 MSG #175, 02-11-2013 07:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

Buy the size you need, they're available from the same place you purchased your tubing. Aftermarket expansion joints are usually sturdier than OE because they also have a braided steel mesh around the bellows. Although GM has done a better job with them by adding a sheet metal support underneath, the Turbo Grand Prix bellows had a history of cracking and coming apart. If you want to use OE which I've never had a problem with like what's pictured above, get the crossover from the 3500 and up cars as they are larger than what was placed on the 3400, ~1.75-2.00" if needed, I didn't measure it. You may also find the better joint in the exhaust pipe of some imports as they are usually braided also.

It's 4" long, the camera is bending the picture in auto focus, it also has an inner interlocking liner for smooth airflow through it as opposed to exposed louvers.




the 3400 bellows is too small, only 1.625" I need 2", maybe one from a 3800 would work, like I said though, my main problem right now is space, I don't have 4" of strait pipe to put an expansion on anywhere... I'm so glad I didn't do twin turbo like I originally planned...

In other news, I started on the wye pipe for the WG...





ericjon262 MSG #176, 02-12-2013 07:02 PM
      Did a little bit of work on the intake manifold today...





pttransamdriver MSG #177, 02-12-2013 08:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Niterrorz:

you had me untill the oil filter plumbing


I wish this quote had a like button

Anyway Eric, I do see your reasoning for putting the piping in, but I still think there must be a better/lighter way of doing it. Also you will have to account for the extra volume of oil that will be in there and think about if that might overfill your reservoir.


ericjon262 MSG #178, 02-12-2013 08:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pttransamdriver:


I wish this quote had a like button

Anyway Eric, I do see your reasoning for putting the piping in, but I still think there must be a better/lighter way of doing it. Also you will have to account for the extra volume of oil that will be in there and think about if that might overfill your reservoir.


in the same post:

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
Edit: the oil filter plumbing has been redone, and is nothing like the below pictures now.


And the bit about the reservoir makes no sense at all.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #179, 02-12-2013 09:10 PM
      The stock crossovers were 1.5" ID same as the stock 2.8L exhaust logs. I wanted high velocity before the turbo so kept everything the same. The exhaust ports on the 2.8L/3.4L iron heads are only about 1" ID stock anyway. How big are those aluminum head exhaust ports?

ericjon262 MSG #180, 02-12-2013 09:12 PM
      they are D-ports, and 1.625" pipe matches pretty darn close once formed into the D shape.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #181, 02-12-2013 10:01 PM
      I'd stick to something close to your log size to keep the exhaust speed up before the turbo. Could you fit 1.75" ID pipes to your turbo mounting flange? My T3 style mount barely fit's 1.5" pipes.

ericjon262 MSG #182, 02-12-2013 10:08 PM
      my log size is 2 inch, I have found a couple of bellows, but they are all too long, I don't have a ton of space to play with.



ericjon262 MSG #183, 02-16-2013 10:58 PM
      got my flange stubbed today, what a ***** that was... I'll post pics tomorrow.



ericjon262 MSG #184, 02-17-2013 10:42 PM
     








ericjon262 MSG #185, 02-19-2013 12:22 AM
      got a little bit done tonight, no pics yet though. I do have this cool (well kinda) picture I took the other night of science in action! see the little lines? those are formed when iron filing are on the ground, and my welding lead(big wire) runs over the top of them, this demonstrates that electron flow influences magnetism!




sleevePAPA MSG #186, 02-19-2013 01:19 AM
      LMAO, nerd.

J/K


ericjon262 MSG #187, 02-19-2013 01:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sleevePAPA:

LMAO, nerd.

J/K


Lol, well...



fieroaddicted (service@parkstreetrv.ca) MSG #188, 02-23-2013 02:34 PM
      man this thing is looking sweet! great job with the car so far!

ericjon262 MSG #189, 02-23-2013 02:43 PM
      thanks, I hope to be able to post some progress tomorrow.



aji MSG #190, 03-06-2013 09:57 AM
      Very nice!

ericjon262 MSG #191, 03-06-2013 11:41 AM
      thanks, waiting on parts right now, hopefully once they are here I can get some real progress going again...

fieroaddicted (service@parkstreetrv.ca) MSG #192, 03-06-2013 08:25 PM
     

ericjon262 MSG #193, 03-13-2013 10:20 PM
      got the dash back in, going to out the 120 MPH speedo in my cluster and try to get it in the car tomorrow.

Slowbuild MSG #194, 03-14-2013 10:51 AM
      RE: Expansion joints.

I had the same trouble with space on my twin scroll mitsu setup with a 3.4. What I figured was that if my front bank had a joint, my wastegate takeoff had an expansion joint, and my downpipe could move (which it can, it's just hung on exhaust hangers, then the rear bank can expand and not cause stress.

In othere words, if you stress relieve all except one, then that one can be free to move.

So far there has been no problems.

I wrapped with DEI titanium and the transaxle is fine so far. Be very carefull with heat around the shift cable ends...they get soft and slip off the ball studs.

Chay

[This message has been edited by Slowbuild (edited 03-14-2013).]

ericjon262 MSG #195, 03-14-2013 07:29 PM
     

got my cluster installed, need to finish installing all the trim pieces. I've also started re gluing the center console back together, I'll try to get some pics tonight!



ericjon262 MSG #196, 03-18-2013 10:33 PM
      The dashboard is "done"!



ericjon262 MSG #197, 03-21-2013 10:50 PM
     

ordered 30' of welding cable for my remote mount battery, then I decided to shrink boot them together to help with packaging. I'll get them installed later this week.



ericjon262 MSG #198, 03-25-2013 06:43 PM
      more custom stuff...











ericjon262 MSG #199, 04-01-2013 11:57 PM
      intake is getting welded up tomorrow or wednesday, I'm going to talk to my machinist and see how much longer on the rest of the engine tomorrow.

in other news, the intercooler lines are almost done, just need a couple more fittings and a little bit more hose, should have pictures tomorrow.



ericjon262 MSG #200, 04-03-2013 02:17 AM
      I got word that the intake is done at the welding shop! I won't be able to pick it up until friday at the earliest, but they said they were closed, so it looks like monday...

the intercooler lines were done, but I'm going to make a few changes. originally, I joined the two pipes together for ease of packaging, but the ease of packaging comes at a price. The hot coolant in route to the heat exchanger will warm up the cooler coolant on the way to the reservoir, so I'm going to redo them apart, and a little bit different too. right now, they are a little too long in the front, and bend up at too sharp of an angle in the back. I'll post pictures tomorrow when I get the new ones built.

I'm also entertaining the idea that I might run a bigger fuel line, stock is 3/8", I'm thinking I may step it up to 1/2" while I have the tank out. I'm going to go talk to one of the local (well **** the only) dyno tuners and see what he thinks. I've heard 3/8 will support 550 HP at 43 PSI, so I should be ok, I don't plan to be north of there, but the build (short of the cheap turbo) should be capable of more than that, and I have it apart already, so it wouldn't really be any significant work to upgrade now compared to later.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #201, 04-03-2013 10:05 AM
      Have you done any calculations to figure out what the actual temperature rise of the water through the intercooler will be?
I bet it's not very much... not enough to be concerned about in terms of running the hoses next to each other.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #202, 04-03-2013 12:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Have you done any calculations to figure out what the actual temperature rise of the water through the intercooler will be?
I bet it's not very much... not enough to be concerned about in terms of running the hoses next to each other.


What's weird about this is that the water in the reservoir never feels as warm as the inlet temp reading in the log when the water pump is running continuously.

If you set the water pump up to come on only when in boost it is not only not as effective at cooling the intake charge, it also substantially raises the base temp of the water and in that circumstance does not cool the intake charge as much as it does when the pump is continuously circulating the water through the exchanger and you're right, the heat put into the intercooler is about 1+/- degree per second you're in boost from what I've seen in my logs which will vary with the reservoir volume.


ericjon262 MSG #203, 04-03-2013 12:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Have you done any calculations to figure out what the actual temperature rise of the water through the intercooler will be?
I bet it's not very much... not enough to be concerned about in terms of running the hoses next to each other.


I haven't done any calculations, but I'm redoing them for more reasons then that, also, they're metal hardlines, not hoses, if they were just rubber hoses, I wouldn't be worried about it at all.

right now, the lines I have made come up into the engine bay at a weird angle, it's both ugly, and impractical. and at the front of the car, they get too close to the front crossmember before spreading out wide enough for the hoses to slip over. I also want to make clips that will hold my battery cables up on the return line.

I'd probably already be done with the new lines if I had a big garage to work in where it wasn't raining...


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #204, 04-03-2013 12:57 PM
      Should be a pretty simple calculation to derive the temperature rise...

Compressor discharge temp, air mass flow, heat exchanger efficiency and water mass flow should be about it for system variables.
Constants will be specific heat of air, specific heat of water.

The "worst case" is the most efficient heat exchanger, which brings the charge air temp all the way back to ambient.


ericjon262 MSG #205, 04-03-2013 01:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


What's weird about this is that the water in the reservoir never feels as warm as the inlet temp reading in the log when the water pump is running continuously.

If you set the water pump up to come on only when in boost it is not only not as effective at cooling the intake charge, it also substantially raises the base temp of the water and in that circumstance does not cool the intake charge as much as it does when the pump is continuously circulating the water through the exchanger and you're right, the heat put into the intercooler is about 1+/- degree per second you're in boost from what I've seen in my logs which will vary with the reservoir volume.


the water pump is being run off the old blower fan relay, which I have re-wired to the fuel pump relay (fuel pump is "hot-wired") if the engine is running, the pump is.


ericjon262 MSG #206, 04-03-2013 01:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Should be a pretty simple calculation to derive the temperature rise...

Compressor discharge temp, air mass flow, heat exchanger efficiency and water mass flow should be about it for system variables.
Constants will be specific heat of air, specific heat of water.

The "worst case" is the most efficient heat exchanger, which brings the charge air temp all the way back to ambient.



I'm not really too worried about it, like I said, that's not the only reason I'm redoing them.


ericjon262 MSG #207, 04-04-2013 03:19 PM
      Here's a before shot of the intercooler lines.



here's what will be going on the car (they're not quite done yet...)



the big plate in between goes under the gas tank, the pipes will have plates that bolt in place under that plate.


ericjon262 MSG #208, 04-06-2013 08:54 PM
      intercooler water lines are pretty much done, needs paint, and the rear line (to the tank and pump) need to be mounted, and I need to find a low profile elbow to fit between the tank and the frame rail... DOH! I should have pictures tomorrow showing everything done.

ericjon262 MSG #209, 04-07-2013 12:41 AM
      I wasn't going to install the lines tonight, but I changed my mind and did it.... here's a pick of the original lines I made, and the new lines



the far right is what I made the first go around, next to that, farther away, are the front hardlines to the HE, then the two main lines that run beside the tank. I'll try to get installed pics tomorrow. I also made a set of hardlines to run from the tank in the back to the intercooler/retun from the HE. the flat pieces on the right side of the far right pipe hold the battery cables in place.

as of now, the intercooler plumbing forward of the engine compartment firewall is complete. I also did a little bit of work on the exhaust and turbo mounts, I decided it was time to simplify a few things, unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures of that.


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #210, 04-07-2013 02:01 AM
      Looks good man. I wish I could route mine that way. I have the battery cables routed along there. I dont like the way Whodeanie routed mine, along the coolant hardlines. Too much heat transfer. I am looking into routing them in the rockers. Seems like there is goign to be plenty of room if I use hard line. What are you using, exactly? And how are you bending it? Thanks.

Edit... but then, if I read that correctly, you have a relocated battery as well! Oh I am very interested now! I got to see how this works out!

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 04-07-2013).]

ericjon262 MSG #211, 04-07-2013 02:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

Looks good man. I wish I could route mine that way. I have the battery cables routed along there. I dont like the way Whodeanie routed mine, along the coolant hardlines. Too much heat transfer. I am looking into routing them in the rockers. Seems like there is goign to be plenty of room if I use hard line. What are you using, exactly? And how are you bending it? Thanks.


I'm not to proud of the material, it's EMT conduit for electrical work, but it's cheap($2 for 10'!), durable (galvanized steel), and easy enough to work with(nice and straight), I plan to re-do them in aluminum later on. I'm bending it with a conduit bender, pretty easy to do also. 5/8" heater hose is a nice tight fit over it too, in fact, if it was any bigger at all, it wouldn't fit.

I actually integrated a channel into the passenger side tube to hold the battery cable up. works like a champ!

Edit:

also, I'm not sure if your car is a GT or a Notchie, but on my Notchie, I couldn't fit the coolant lines in the rockers. I was going to run them through the rockers, and then through the fender over the wheel to the HE. wouldn't work because the actual steel rocker behind the plastic was in the way.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 04-07-2013).]

BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #212, 04-07-2013 02:39 AM
      Mines an 88GT. Hmm, maybe you could make two sets of the coolant tubes? I really don't like all that rubber hose under my car. And I still need to replace the exhaust. The exhaust Dean built for my car is pathetic. I have repaired, or replaced so much of what he done it makes me sick. Anyway, if you look at the link below, this is exactly how I want to do my exhaust. I pm'd the guy about duplicating the exhaust from the catback but he hasn't responded.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/127002.html

Pics






Here is the crap Dean built! So much for a custom 3" exhaust!

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 04-07-2013).]

ericjon262 MSG #213, 04-07-2013 02:49 AM
      I really dig that build, it's in league with fieroguru's LS4 F40 swap, absolutely top notch. when I re-do my turbo setup in stainless, it'll be more like that. I'm very disappointed in the hotside I built, I mounted the turbo too far away, and now I'm gonna have to either run a giant oil return, or a scavenge pump. I'd rather not run scavenge pump, but I might have too. the only problem with a big return line, is where the hell would I put it...

if I had more time to work on it, I'd make a second set, but I'm getting pretty close to my deadline, as I leave for boot camp May 21st.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 04-07-2013).]

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #214, 04-07-2013 06:38 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:
Here is the crap Dean built! So much for a custom 3" exhaust!



I wouldn't want my electric exhaust cutout anywhere near me, even located aft center of the car it is loud and several times more with the throttle wide open. It's not easy in such a small space to have a good muffled system that also has sufficient flow. When I added the exhaust cutout boost pressure went up 3+ psi upon opening it all else the same. The car felt fine but it took adding the cutout to realize how much it was bottled up.


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #215, 04-07-2013 05:43 PM
      TBH, with the turbo it doesn't really get much louder when its open. You get more turbo whistle, and thats about it. Hopefully, I can get the 3" exhaust sorted to where I wont need the cut out. But, I have it, I may just use it anyway.

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #216, 04-07-2013 06:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

TBH, with the turbo it doesn't really get much louder when its open. You get more turbo whistle, and thats about it. Hopefully, I can get the 3" exhaust sorted to where I wont need the cut out. But, I have it, I may just use it anyway.


I've read that a number of times and I'm not sure what your idea of loud is but the only quiet turbo car I've owned was my twin turbo IROC Z and it had a long exhaust to make that possible. The only way I would drive through my neighborhood with my exhaust cutout open at 5 a.m. in the morning is if it was stuck open and I'm sure I have turbo whistle, I just can't hear it very well over the exhaust note which is a little bassy. No idea of what TBH means but I understand why my preceptor chewed me out for using acronyms in notes and discussions.



BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #217, 04-07-2013 08:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


I've read that a number of times and I'm not sure what your idea of loud is but the only quiet turbo car I've owned was my twin turbo IROC Z and it had a long exhaust to make that possible. The only way I would drive through my neighborhood with my exhaust cutout open at 5 a.m. in the morning is if it was stuck open and I'm sure I have turbo whistle, I just can't hear it very well over the exhaust note which is a little bassy. No idea of what TBH means but I understand why my preceptor chewed me out for using acronyms in notes and discussions.


TBH= to be honest. And I despise loud cars, for the record.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 04-07-2013).]

BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #218, 04-08-2013 12:18 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I really dig that build, it's in league with fieroguru's LS4 F40 swap, absolutely top notch. when I re-do my turbo setup in stainless, it'll be more like that. I'm very disappointed in the hotside I built, I mounted the turbo too far away, and now I'm gonna have to either run a giant oil return, or a scavenge pump. I'd rather not run scavenge pump, but I might have too. the only problem with a big return line, is where the hell would I put it...

if I had more time to work on it, I'd make a second set, but I'm getting pretty close to my deadline, as I leave for boot camp May 21st.



Good news.. he is willing to copy his exhaust for me. Its expensive, but worth every penny! Sounds like you are as hard on your work as I am for mine. Always coming up with revisions.... thats a good thing, well, to a point! I just sold the Turbowerks pump from mine. I am very happy to make the switch back to a gravity drain. One less point of failure if you ask me. My return isnt optimal, but in the short time Charlie had it running (before I tore it all back apart again) he drove the car a good 10 miles to the dyno and it didnt smoke anymore. Then obviously it went all pear-shaped and here I am again.. back to square one. Yeah, you are running out of time. I hope you get it done before you ship out. Maybe we will both get lucky and have them on the road very soon!


ericjon262 MSG #219, 04-08-2013 02:26 AM
      I'm going to try to run a gravity drain on mine, but if it doesn't work out, I've already got a relay wired in to run a scavenge pump. I'm very hard on my work, if I wasn't in as big of a rush to get the car back on the road, I'd be making lots of changes...

intercooler HE lines installed, on the left is the line going to the HE, on the right, is the return line, that also supports the battery cables.



I re-did a couple things on the hotside, routing is still the same, but I ditched the upper mount for the turbo, and made another leg on the lower mount, so the turbo is now supported better, with less bulk, and allowing for more clearance around my shifter cables. I also installed a second V band on the front side to aid in install and removal.

I mounted the wastegate today too, it's mounted under the turbo, with the dump pointing towards the outlet of the turbo, it will dump into the exhaust stream.






it doesn't look like much, but it's been alot of work...


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #220, 04-08-2013 07:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I'm going to try to run a gravity drain on mine, but if it doesn't work out, I've already got a relay wired in to run a scavenge pump. I'm very hard on my work, if I wasn't in as big of a rush to get the car back on the road, I'd be making lots of changes...

intercooler HE lines installed, on the left is the line going to the HE, on the right, is the return line, that also supports the battery cables.


I highly doubt you'll have any trouble with your oil return as too far away is relative in that small compartment and it's being too low that can give you trouble. I use a 3/4" oil drain back and although part of my trouble was due to location I barely have a grade between the oil drain and the return at the oil pan. It's so close that the return hose has touched the jackshaft before and I don't have any trouble with oil drain back amazingly. I still have the Holley Black external fuel pump with an all metal impeller in place to use as a scavenge pump just in case. I found out about it while researching oil scavenge pumps and not hearing good results about many of the ones in use not to mention the down time if one goes out since no one in town seems to have them on the shelf. The pump worked great the few months I had it in use. A good PCV system will also help keep oil out of the turbine housing also.

I'm not critiquing, I've been turbocharging Fieros since I purchased my first one back in Tallahassee ~1996. I'm speaking from experience with my own setups when I make suggestions. There is enough room to run the HE to and from lines right along side the tank attached to the heater and AC lines. Your lines are sitting lower than the coolant pipes which are some times crushed by accident and having run over a ladder on I-4 at 65 mph (thank God it was length wise) and accidentally dropped one wheel off the shoulder of the road into a water rut scraping the bottom of the car, running the lines along side the tank is a good place. My hoses are zip tied to the existing pipes. Normally this is not a problem until you actually have something to lose, or get damaged. With your lines located where they are, luck will have it that you scrape stuff you've never had a problem with before. At some point you'll find the tallest speed bump in town.


ericjon262 MSG #221, 04-08-2013 12:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
I highly doubt you'll have any trouble with your oil return as too far away is relative in that small compartment and it's being too low that can give you trouble. I use a 3/4" oil drain back and although part of my trouble was due to location I barely have a grade between the oil drain and the return at the oil pan. It's so close that the return hose has touched the jackshaft before and I don't have any trouble with oil drain back amazingly. I still have the Holley Black external fuel pump with an all metal impeller in place to use as a scavenge pump just in case. I found out about it while researching oil scavenge pumps and not hearing good results about many of the ones in use not to mention the down time if one goes out since no one in town seems to have them on the shelf. The pump worked great the few months I had it in use. A good PCV system will also help keep oil out of the turbine housing also.



I do need to work out the PCV system still, that's something that I hadn't put alot of thought into. I was going to do slashcuts in the exhaust, but that'll throw off o2 sensor readings. I'm considering getting an electric "smog" pump and modding it into a vacuum pump to pull a vacuum on the crankcase. I saw a right up on it ages ago, of coarse now that I need it I can't find it...


 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
I'm not critiquing, I've been turbocharging Fieros since I purchased my first one back in Tallahassee ~1996. I'm speaking from experience with my own setups when I make suggestions. There is enough room to run the HE to and from lines right along side the tank attached to the heater and AC lines. Your lines are sitting lower than the coolant pipes which are some times crushed by accident and having run over a ladder on I-4 at 65 mph (thank God it was length wise) and accidentally dropped one wheel off the shoulder of the road into a water rut scraping the bottom of the car, running the lines along side the tank is a good place. My hoses are zip tied to the existing pipes. Normally this is not a problem until you actually have something to lose, or get damaged. With your lines located where they are, luck will have it that you scrape stuff you've never had a problem with before. At some point you'll find the tallest speed bump in town.



my car is stock ride height, when I was under there, I didn't see any grounding damage, for now, they're gonna stay, if I run into problems, I'll move them.


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #222, 04-08-2013 07:47 PM
      Make me a set Eric? Let me know if you need anything.. I have tons of Fiero crap laying around.

ericjon262 MSG #223, 04-09-2013 12:06 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

Make me a set Eric? Let me know if you need anything.. I have tons of Fiero crap laying around.


sorry man, I don't have enough time to work on my own car right now. you can have the 1st line I made if you want it...

in other news:

drilled the oil pan for the drain, after looking at it again, I think a gravity drain will work no problem.



worked on the ICM bracket



I need to figure out how to get this heater line bent 180* around, so it points towards the front of the car



the other one was easy, cut, weld. done.



and now for shots of the intake manifold, got air?







[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 04-09-2013).]

BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #224, 04-09-2013 10:55 AM
      You should wrinkle red or wrinkle black the VC & intake!

ericjon262 MSG #225, 04-11-2013 04:54 AM
      decided to pull the harness apart again, I needed to add a couple of pins to the PCM, and clean up a few things, been working on it since 8, almost done. looks way better, but I didn't take before and after shots.

ericjon262 MSG #226, 04-11-2013 04:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

You should wrinkle red or wrinkle black the VC & intake!


maybe, we'll see.


ericjon262 MSG #227, 04-11-2013 10:13 PM
      found some old timeslips from when the car was stock... all 1/8th mile, 100% stock, best time was a 10.71 out of 5 runs... wow that's slow... it was my first time out at the track though, and I got better with each run.

ericjon262 MSG #228, 04-13-2013 11:14 PM
      engine side of the harness it 100% again, and much more well done then before, I am way happier with it. I've now moved over to the chassis side. but I need to get a few relay harnesses to upgrade the relays to a more weatherproof variety.

fieroaddicted (service@parkstreetrv.ca) MSG #229, 04-13-2013 11:44 PM
      Build is looking great man!

ericjon262 MSG #230, 04-13-2013 11:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroaddicted:

Build is looking great man!


thanks, I should be getting the engine back from the machine shop this week (if not heads are gonna roll!) if someone buys the clutch I have for sale, I'll be ordering a clutchnet stage 4 to replace the centerforce I have. if not, I'll give the centerforce a shot and see if it can take the pain! there should be quite a bit of progress over the next week or two, as parts start rolling in again. things like the charge pipes, and oil lines. I still need to figure out what I'm going to do for a muffler, I'm thinking I might go with a hooker aerochamber, but I haven't heard from anyone using one on a turbo car.


fieroaddicted (service@parkstreetrv.ca) MSG #231, 04-14-2013 08:31 AM
     
 
quote
I'll give the centerforce a shot and see if it can take the pain!


haha Ya i think i made a poor choice on the clutch, but we'll see. I hope it does the job.


Bridgetown MSG #232, 04-14-2013 12:47 PM
     
 
quote
[B]Originally posted by ericjon262





Very nice!
You could sell the crap out of those to the Fbody and MG guys, or anyone running a 3x00 in a rwd longitudinal setup

[This message has been edited by Bridgetown (edited 04-14-2013).]

ericjon262 MSG #233, 04-14-2013 12:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:


Very nice!


Thanks, I'm thinking I might try and dyno it with this intake, and stock intake to see if there are any real gains to be had.


I could sell them if I was doing everything in house. all I did was the fitup, BCC made the flange, and D&D welding here in pensacola welded it up.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #234, 04-15-2013 12:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
and D&D welding here in pensacola welded it up.


I think I used them when I lived in P'cola... '01-'04.


ericjon262 MSG #235, 04-15-2013 01:12 PM
      they did a decent job, I'm happy with it.

ericjon262 MSG #236, 04-17-2013 12:43 AM
      didn't get as much done today as I wanted, but I did get the fuel pump installed, and the tank back in the car. I also got the new relays wired in, and the hotwire for the fuel pump mostly done(just need to runt he wire to the pump)


later 3rd generation Fbodies use a better style relay then what the Fiero came with stock, and when I was snatching the pigtails at the JY, I noticed they had a nice little bracket to hold them, so I took that too.


also, for anyone interested in 3500 swaps, the 3500 uses a different ignition then the earlier GM 60*V6, so you have to re-drill the coil mount for the earlier ignition if you run a earlier PCM or go obd1. early 90's 3800SC(maybe N/a too) bonnevilles, and 3.4 Fbodies have a nice little adapter plate that holds the ICM in place with 3 larger bolts, the reason I mention it, is that I find it's easier to drill 3 big holes accurately, then 6 little holes. I took pics, but my phone didn't save them, so I'll have to re-take them.

still hadn't made up my mind on the muffler. I'll probably go with either the aerochamber, or a dynomax welded ultra flow

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 04-17-2013).]

BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #237, 04-17-2013 08:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

didn't get as much done today as I wanted, but I did get the fuel pump installed, and the tank back in the car. I also got the new relays wired in, and the hotwire for the fuel pump mostly done(just need to runt he wire to the pump)


later 3rd generation Fbodies use a better style relay then what the Fiero came with stock, and when I was snatching the pigtails at the JY, I noticed they had a nice little bracket to hold them, so I took that too.


also, for anyone interested in 3500 swaps, the 3500 uses a different ignition then the earlier GM 60*V6, so you have to re-drill the coil mount for the earlier ignition if you run a earlier PCM or go obd1. early 90's 3800SC(maybe N/a too) bonnevilles, and 3.4 Fbodies have a nice little adapter plate that holds the ICM in place with 3 larger bolts, the reason I mention it, is that I find it's easier to drill 3 big holes accurately, then 6 little holes. I took pics, but my phone didn't save them, so I'll have to re-take them.

still hadn't made up my mind on the muffler. I'll probably go with either the aerochamber, or a dynomax welded ultra flow



Borla 40085 is pretty sweet (pictured above).


ericjon262 MSG #238, 04-18-2013 03:16 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:


Borla 40085 is pretty sweet (pictured above).


I'll have to find a few sound clips and see how they sound.

here's the ICM adapter I was talking about.





I re-installed the mock up engine today. so I could get the harness finished, the fuel lines done, and the coolant lines done. the harness sits now at about 75% complete.

the main battery positive cable is done, the ground still needs to be terminated at the rear of the car on the engine block.

I'm going to try to do a systems check tomorrow afternoon/night. if all goes according to plan, my car will have electrical power for the first time in about 2 years tomorrow.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #239, 04-18-2013 07:41 AM
      I'm not sure if your module is actually built into the PCM and you really mean coil pack mount eric, but either way due to your header design that's a bad location for the mount now. Unless you take extreme measures to shield it the chances of burning out the coils/modules are going to be much higher. I have a modified stock manifold with the stock heat shield attached and a few months ago cooked a module in that location. The temps will be very high off of the thinner header style manifold and that heat is going to rise up toward the coil assembly and be trapped there especially during the Summer months. That's the main reason I moved my coil assembly to the cooler end of the motor on the passenger side. The addition of a turbo changes a lot of things relative to the stock motor conditions, everything experiences higher than usual temps.

ericjon262 MSG #240, 04-18-2013 11:31 AM
      it's gonna stay there for now, if I start having problems, I'll move it.

ericjon262 MSG #241, 04-19-2013 10:47 PM
      Hit my first snag on the coldside, I expected it though.

My BOV flange pipe is too long, the problem is that the only direction I have to go in is down, and with that long of a straightaway, it hits the trans mounts.




the plan right now, is to cut the pipe the width of a T bolt clamp past the flange, and cut the silicone much shorter too. The resulting assembly should be about the width of the two peices of silicone butted directly together as pictured below.



I still need to do a real test fit of the new layout to make sure it will fit as planned, but I think it should work fine.


Edit:

feeling around in the dark tells me it'll be really close, may need to clearance the transmission mount a little bit. it can be pretty close though, because the whole coldside will move with the engine



BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #242, 04-20-2013 01:06 AM
      All part of the fun.. one step forward, two steps back.

ericjon262 MSG #243, 04-23-2013 12:00 AM
      "finished" the wiring harness again, not to happy with the looks of it, oh well, I'll remake it later when I have more time to throw at it. tomorrow morning I'm going to do a systems check and make sure everything opperates as it should. hopefully I won't be changing a bunch of fuses...

not sure why, but every time I had made a harness, I had started at the sensors and worked my way to the PCM, it hit me as I was working on the harness last night, I'd be way better off doing the opposite. It's much easier to make 3-4 wires even and neat in one spot then it is to do 60+.

I got the material for my downpipe in, I got it about 30% complete,



I should be getting a whole heap of parts in on wednesday to finish up the exhaust.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #244, 04-23-2013 07:03 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

not sure why, but every time I had made a harness, I had started at the sensors and worked my way to the PCM, it hit me as I was working on the harness last night, I'd be way better off doing the opposite. It's much easier to make 3-4 wires even and neat in one spot then it is to do 60+.



I work in bundles from each connection point to the PCM. If you put several neat bundles together, it should be minimal effort to keep the resulting trunk neat and tidy.


ericjon262 MSG #245, 04-23-2013 08:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I work in bundles from each connection point to the PCM. If you put several neat bundles together, it should be minimal effort to keep the resulting trunk neat and tidy.


I'm gonna try to clean it up some here in a few, I plan to re-do it again anyways, there's too many splices in it for my tastes, even though they're all "liquid taped" and heat shrinked, I'd rather use dedicated runs.

the good news, it may look ugly, but nothing ohmed out over .2 ohms I read somewhere that it wasn't until 5 ohms that you start having problems.



ericjon262 MSG #246, 04-23-2013 03:48 PM
      !!!!


Houston, we have POWER!

so far, everything is looking good, the harness is installed, the PCM is communicating with my tuner, and the junkyard SPL. headlight motors work!


ericjon262 MSG #247, 04-23-2013 08:28 PM
      ok, so far I've only had a few little speedbumps. but now, I've got a good one, key on engine off, I don't have a CEL, and the charge failure light doesn't stay on either.

grounding pin C on the C203 gets a bright CEL, so the bulb is good, that means the issue is somewhere between the C203 and the PCM. I'll have it fixed tonight.



ericjon262 MSG #248, 04-24-2013 06:42 PM
      issue turned out to be with the PCM power, the PCM I am using needed two IGN+, I only had one. now everything works as prescribed.

I got a bunch of parts in today, including some of the drain fittings for the turbo...



Damn they're huge! lol...

I also got a little bit more work on the downpipe done but it keeps raining outside where the car is, so progress has been slow...



BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #249, 04-24-2013 07:47 PM
      Excellent. I am happy for you. You'll be doing that 1st start really soon. Ah, nothing like it in the world...

ericjon262 MSG #250, 04-24-2013 09:30 PM
     
Stopped raining long enough for me to get a little bit of work done on the downpipe.



routing wise, the downpipe is done. I'm going to add a flex pipe in the straight section right before the muffler, and a V band at the muffler inlet.

to finish the downpipe, I still need to:


  1. fully weld each seam(tacked now)
  2. weld in the o2 sensor bungs
  3. obtain and weld in the flex pipe
  4. integrate the wastegate dump.


I also have everything to finish the fuel system now, except for the TCE rail fittings, and the line itself.




ericjon262 MSG #251, 04-24-2013 09:35 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

Excellent. I am happy for you. You'll be doing that 1st start really soon. Ah, nothing like it in the world...


I sure hope so, I need to hear it, and feel it.

it feels so good to be able to turn the key and hear the starter run, I can't wait until there's something in there for the starter to turn.


sleevePAPA MSG #252, 04-24-2013 10:33 PM
      aerochamber, nice!

ericjon262 MSG #253, 04-24-2013 11:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sleevePAPA:

aerochamber, nice!


yeah, I'm hoping it sounds as good as it looks...



sleevePAPA MSG #254, 04-24-2013 11:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


yeah, I'm hoping it sounds as good as it looks...



well you have a turbo to quiet down the exhaust, assuming youre only running one tip?

heres what true duals sound like on a 3.4, with the aerochambers.


http://www.streetfire.net/v...4-blazer_2289596.htm



ericjon262 MSG #255, 04-24-2013 11:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sleevePAPA:


well you have a turbo to quiet down the exhaust, assuming youre only running one tip?

heres what true duals sound like on a 3.4, with the aerochambers.


http://www.streetfire.net/v...4-blazer_2289596.htm


that sounds pretty good!


carbon MSG #256, 04-26-2013 04:04 PM
      I know I'm a one trick pony, but did you ever get that clutch checked out?

ericjon262 MSG #257, 04-26-2013 07:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

I know I'm a one trick pony, but did you ever get that clutch checked out?


lol, nope and it's for sale if you want to try it. $200+shipping...



ericjon262 MSG #258, 04-26-2013 10:07 PM
      got started on the catch can today.



still need to add fittings, and it's pretty big though, I might cut it down about 25% to make packaging a little easier.

got my AN fittings in for the fuel rails, so tomorrow I'll try to get the fuel system finished up. I'm glad they aren't red like int he picture on Marc's website, they appear to be clear anodized.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 04-26-2013).]

ericjon262 MSG #259, 04-28-2013 12:15 AM
      mostly complete catch can, made almost entirely of scrap:



I also got the downpipe welded up, and the WG bump integrated. all that's left in the exhaust is the slashcut, Vband on the muffler, and the tailpipe. some of the welds look like crap, the fitup was less then ideal, but it's sealed, and strong, and won't be visable an



I also got the fuel system pretty much done, just needs to be tied back.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 04-28-2013).]

ericjon262 MSG #260, 04-29-2013 02:41 PM
      re-worked intercooler mount.



hopefully for the last time.


ericjon262 MSG #261, 04-30-2013 11:33 PM
      exhaust is 99% complete, just need to put the slashcut in, and a flex coupling. should have pics tomorrow.

LC1 is mounted, and the wires routed, still needs to be wired up, but for the most part it's done.



ericjon262 MSG #262, 05-21-2013 03:07 AM
      got the engine back, finished the final assembly, installed the flywheel and clutch, installed a new HTOB, bled the master, bled the line, started bleeding the HTOB, and apparently, it's defective. there's a nice little puddle of hydraulic fluid dripping out from the bellhousing. never got a pedal at all... my machinist did great job on the engine, but he took way to damn long. if I had the engine back, even last week, I would have had time to deal with issues like this.

oh well, life happens. I'll get a new clutch (clutchnet stage 4) and HTOB(GM) on order before I leave tomorrow, and when I get back, I'll fix it.

it'll take a little longer then planned, but I'll make it happen still....



carbon MSG #263, 05-21-2013 08:35 AM
      Did it over-extend or just plain defective? Why do you need a new clutch? Just because? Or did the hydraulic fluid contaminate the disc?

Sorry you ran out of time...


ericjon262 MSG #264, 05-21-2013 09:50 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:

Did it over-extend or just plain defective? Why do you need a new clutch? Just because? Or did the hydraulic fluid contaminate the disc?

Sorry you ran out of time...


I think it was just plain defective, I haven't had a chance to take it apart to look, but it never really even firmed up before I noticed the dripping, and I imagine if it was over extended, it would have gotten firm, and then "popped"

once I got the turbo build rolling I realized the centerforce would be stretched to it's limits, I tried selling it to fund a new one, but no-body would buy it, so I figured I'd run it and if it held it held, if not then I'll have to fix it.

the car will still get done, there will just be a 9ish week delay. hopefully I'll get a few days off after boot camp/before school that I can use to get this thing fixed.



fieroaddicted (service@parkstreetrv.ca) MSG #265, 05-21-2013 05:23 PM
     
 
quote
I think it was just plain defective, I haven't had a chance to take it apart to look, but it never really even firmed up before I noticed the dripping, and I imagine if it was over extended, it would have gotten firm, and then "popped"

once I got the turbo build rolling I realized the centerforce would be stretched to it's limits, I tried selling it to fund a new one, but no-body would buy it, so I figured I'd run it and if it held it held, if not then I'll have to fix it.

the car will still get done, there will just be a 9ish week delay. hopefully I'll get a few days off after boot camp/before school that I can use to get this thing fixed.


Man that sucks bad. Sorry to hear that. I am hoping i don't end up with the same issue. I am trying to figure out where to get an HTOB spacer for mine. I heard that spec sells them, but i went on their web site and could not see anything.
troy


ericjon262 MSG #266, 05-21-2013 08:15 PM
      I heard you had to email spec for pricing/availability on the spacers, I'm going to when I get home. tomorrow starts the real fun...



carbon MSG #267, 05-22-2013 08:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Tomorrow starts the real fun...



Good luck man! Much respect!


ericjon262 MSG #268, 07-23-2013 04:05 PM
      well guys, I'm out of boot camp, chilling in Charleston, SC. I'm going to try and have the car shipped up here so I can work on it on the weekends, hopefully I can make it happen.



topcat (tconey01@att.net) MSG #269, 07-24-2013 03:17 AM
      Welcome to Charleston! I'd love to see the work you've done on this swap. I hope you can get it shipped.

ericjon262 MSG #270, 07-24-2013 03:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by topcat:

Welcome to Charleston! I'd love to see the work you've done on this swap. I hope you can get it shipped.


Thanks for the welcome, I intend to bring the car up here, and when I do, we need to meet up!


ericjon262 MSG #271, 10-06-2013 02:56 PM
      Figured this post needed a couple of updates...

I'm stuck up here in charleston until mid november, I'll get a week or so off to go home, where I will try to get the Fiero put together enough to trailer up here and start wrenching on again.

In the meantime, I bought a truck as a DD beater:

1970 GMC 1/2 ton




tired carbed 327(might be a 350, SPID says 350, casting number says 327)



Future plans include a vortec 4200 I6 and 4L65e out of a trailblazer or envoy.

how do I plan to do it?

I'm going to attempt to mount a envoy fuel sending unit in a 31 or 40 gal suburban gas tank under the bed for the fuel system, use a swap crossmember to mount the 4L65e, and the build engine mounts from there. because the 4200 is narrower then the old SBC, the plan is to make adapter mounts that go from the block to the SBC engine mounts on the frame.

Super accurate to scale model of what I mean by that:



instead of the engine mounts bolting directly to the block, they would bolt to extensions bolted to the block(green area)

the other major hurdle is the oil pan, the oil pan on the 4200 is a front sump pan, whereas almost everything else GM (including my truck) was designed for a rear sump. for this, I'll just weld up a new pan out of steel and use the vortec 3500(I5 in the colorado/canyon) oil pump pickup. the block is a deep skirt block, and the oil pan rail is flat all the way around, so it shouldn't be too terribly hard to pull off.

other then that, it's all wiring and parts selection. should make for a fun, unique, daily driver.

but that's another thread.



zkhennings MSG #272, 02-04-2014 12:14 PM
      Any recent progress?

ericjon262 MSG #273, 02-04-2014 04:34 PM
      just been collecting parts, bought an aluminum flywheel, and going to pick up a new clutch and PP here real soon. need to have it shipped up here so it's not 600 miles away... I was going to pick it up and bring it home with my truck, but ran into a couple of issues when I was in town and didn't get a chance to make it happen.

ericjon262 MSG #274, 06-20-2014 02:34 PM
      Towed the car on a U haul trailer to Charleston, then I got told to go to Kings Bay GA, now, I'm here, the car is here, and the clutch is on order! time to get some work done!

KaijuSenso MSG #275, 06-20-2014 06:27 PM
      Looking forward to see you continue this project. Now that mine is running again, I need more persuasion to tear it down again for a turbo build.

ericjon262 MSG #276, 06-20-2014 11:48 PM
      you and me both! I can't wait for the clutch to get here, thing is going to be dope!

ericjon262 MSG #277, 06-27-2014 04:17 PM
      well, I placed the order(acknowledged by a Spec employee via email) for my clutch 4 days ago, thinking that by now it would have left Spec and be on it's way to me,

this was 3 days ago...

 
quote
They ship in 24-48 hrs..this is a busy week given we are closed all next week. If not today, probably leaves tomorrow…


seeing as I hadn't heard anything from Spec, I called them up, and they don't have anything in their system on my order at all... now how is a order supposed to ship if it doesn't exist??? Guess who just lost a $600 sale.

so now, instead of a Spec, I'll be going with a Bully stage 4 Clutch. hopefully this order works out better...


fieroaddicted (service@parkstreetrv.ca) MSG #278, 06-27-2014 07:00 PM
      Did ya ever manage to get a spacer from spec? I am going to make my own on the lathe tomorrow and see how it turns out. If i am not happy with it, I will be ordering a spacer from them myself. After a couple emails to them, someone finally got back to me with a part # and price! Part number N1774-.250 . $49.

ericjon262 MSG #279, 06-27-2014 07:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroaddicted:

Did ya ever manage to get a spacer from spec? I am going to make my own on the lathe tomorrow and see how it turns out. If i am not happy with it, I will be ordering a spacer from them myself. After a couple emails to them, someone finally got back to me with a part # and price! Part number N1774-.250 . $49.


no, I'm going to try something a little different. I'm going to run a cavalier clutch instead of a fiero clutch, and take measurements to make sure it'll work.


ericjon262 MSG #280, 07-14-2014 04:17 PM
      today, almost a month after placing the order with Spec clutch, they call me and want to talk about it... good job guys way to follow up on a sale... 3 weeks too late...

this came in about two weeks ago, just didn't get around to posting it yet.



Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #281, 07-19-2014 07:21 PM
      Very cool build! I see we're both into some labour intensive stuff. We'd be dangerous if we were neighbours! Lol. I do like your daily driver too. Keep up the good work.

ericjon262 MSG #282, 07-19-2014 10:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Lunatic:

Very cool build! I see we're both into some labour intensive stuff. We'd be dangerous if we were neighbours! Lol. I do like your daily driver too. Keep up the good work.


lol, thanks, the car has been semi backburner'd again, I'm doing some work on my trucks... swapping the cab and front clip from my 1/2 ton to my 3/4 ton and then selling the 1/2 ton.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 09-01-2014).]

ericjon262 MSG #283, 09-01-2014 06:43 PM
      The Navy decided they wanted me other places(two days later), so I had to pack up and leave quick! I had to leave the car behind(again), but am going to pick it up on Thursday! then I'm going to try and get started on the clutch and HTOB swap ASAP.

ericjon262 MSG #284, 09-27-2014 08:37 PM
      Spent this weekend working on the car, got a little more work until I can drag it out of the hobby shop.

The main reason for all this delay...



the little POS popped while bleeding is. doesn't appear to have hyperextended though.

A few comparison pictures of the two clutches:



















The other reason for the delay:



if you look at the top sprockets, you'll notice grooves cut into one and not the other the grooves are there to sling oil onto the chain, without them, the chain gets hot, stretches, and fails.

And then the engine found it's way home!



Still a ton of work to do, but it's progress nonetheless.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #285, 09-28-2014 07:41 AM
      Hope you get it on the road soon. I doubt the grooves in the upper sprocket are going to make any difference aside from the look of good intentions. I believe what they are really intended for from what my small block chevy building experience taught me, is better lubrication for the thrust surface between the block and the sprocket. In this case there is a metal retaining plate bolted in place between the sprocket and the block. The chains are hardened now and I've never been made aware of any failures on the newer motors.

fieroaddicted (service@parkstreetrv.ca) MSG #286, 09-28-2014 09:32 AM
      Nice! looking good.

ericjon262 MSG #287, 09-28-2014 09:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

Hope you get it on the road soon. I doubt the grooves in the upper sprocket are going to make any difference aside from the look of good intentions. I believe what they are really intended for from what my small block chevy building experience taught me, is better lubrication for the thrust surface between the block and the sprocket. In this case there is a metal retaining plate bolted in place between the sprocket and the block. The chains are hardened now and I've never been made aware of any failures on the newer motors.


maybe, but the chain needs oil too, there are holes in the thrust plate to allow oil to flow to the sprocket, along with the front cam bearing being backset away from the thrust plate to influence the oil to flow towards the gear. I don't have a stock sprocket set available, but I would bet the stock sprocket has a similar groove.


ericjon262 MSG #288, 09-28-2014 10:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroaddicted:

Nice! looking good.


Thanks!


Inferno (infernoz24@hotmail.com) MSG #289, 09-30-2014 02:13 AM
      Awesome build up. Keep it coming.

ericjon262 MSG #290, 09-30-2014 05:21 PM
      made a little more progress today and yesterday.

Here's how I left it yesterday:


I don't have a picture from today, but it's not much different, now it has some vaccuum/boost lines hooked up, along with the coldside piping installed. unfortunately, I need to re-work my intercooler setup again, it's just not fitting right...


ericjon262 MSG #291, 10-05-2014 09:32 PM
      main coolant lines done, wheel bearings, done, axle seals, done,vacuum/boost lines, done. getting closer, still need intercooler lines done, new intercooler mount made, heater core lines done, fuel system pressure test/pressure regulator adjusted, final clutch bleed, brakes bled, and then the engine tune. almost there!

ericjon262 MSG #292, 10-21-2014 09:39 PM
      Here's a picture from today, not much new, but it's something. most of the vacuum lines are done, heater core lines are done, there's really not much left to do. I need to fix a broken wire I found, and redo some of the intercooler piping.



ericjon262 MSG #293, 11-12-2014 08:30 PM
      I was planning on running A/C on the car, so when I put the engine in, I left the compressor installed, seeing as I don't have lines for the new compressor, I've decided to ditch it for the time being. I'm considering installing an all electric A/C in it's place in the front as a stand alone system. unfortunately for me, this required me to re configure my belt routing and install a new idler pulley.

I also over the past week or two made a new intercooler mount, got the intercooler plumbed in, remote oil filter mounted and plumbed, and intake piping done, along with lots of little other things. it's coming together quickly, gonna clean the car out as best as I can tomorrow and try to make sure I'm not forgetting anything before I try and fire it off. I'm hoping to start it some time this weekend.


ericjon262 MSG #294, 11-14-2014 03:22 AM
      Started adding fluids yesterday. My fuel filter turned out to be defective and let me know by spraying fuel everywhere when I primed the system. Otherwise, my fuel system was liquid tight. My coolant system appears to have a slow leak by the radiator, at this point I am not sure if it is the radiator, or just the cap, or even just a little bit of residual drip from the small amount that spilled while filling.



ericjon262 MSG #295, 11-15-2014 08:08 PM
      hit a couple of snags today, it wasn't entirely unexpected though. hooked up the PCM, flashed my base tune, and tried starting it, wouldn't start, presumably due to fuel(no gas smell near exhaust). looked at the tune, and I forgot to remove antitheft... removed it, and tried again, and would get an occasional bump, but no bang. and I remembered I hadn't set my fuel pressure. pulled the plug where the gauge goes on my regulator to install the gauge, and there's brown crap behind it... it looks like when the filter took a **** , it decided to send **** through the whole fuel system. regulator, lines, rail, injectors, all had crap in them... cleaned and began flushing the system, and then one of the lines gave way. I'm not sure where, or if it's one of the lines I made, or the body side lines I didn't touch. I'm assuming it's the stock side. if it is, I'm going to re-do the body side lines so the whole system is new and I don't have to worry about it. on another note, my DHP interface decided to eat **** and die, anyone have one laying around they don't need anymore?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #296, 11-17-2014 12:19 PM
      Sounds like a frustrating weekend.

ericjon262 MSG #297, 11-17-2014 03:17 PM
      very, picked up a few fittings on my way home from work. gonna try and get some work done... but it's supposed to get cold as crap this week... we'll see what happens.

Grantman (jgrantt@hotmail.com) MSG #298, 11-17-2014 03:46 PM
      cold as crap in florida means like 50? j/k

ericjon262 MSG #299, 11-17-2014 03:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Grantman:

cold as crap in florida means like 50? j/k


not in florida anymore, I'm in South Carolina, supposed to hit 24 F tomorrow night... and on the coast, that bites in deep.


ericjon262 MSG #300, 11-23-2014 04:31 PM
      well, my interface is still good, the USB to serial adapter turned out to have died, which was real nice, $38 beats $200 any day. in the mean time, I made a 3 gauge "a" piller setup for a third gen F-body fit my car. looks surprisingly well for a 1/2 custom part.I'll get pics when I have better lighting.

ericjon262 MSG #301, 12-06-2014 06:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I made a 3 gauge "a" piller setup for a third gen F-body fit my car. looks surprisingly well for a 1/2 custom part.I'll get pics when I have better lighting.








I wish I had taken a picture of the pod before modification, I'm still working on installing instrumentation, right now, I have AFR, and boost. I think #3 is going to be EGT.

the ruptured fuel line turned out to be one of my "new" lines I had dropped the tank, thinking it was one of the lines hose clamped to the pickup, and then the tank decided to start leaking. I ended up grabbing a tank from an 87-88 car, and installing AN fittings on the pickup, so there are no more clamped connections, then I made new braided fuel lines, all the way from the tank to the rail and back. the new tank is almost ready to go in for good, hope to have it done in the morning


jediperk MSG #302, 12-06-2014 08:19 PM
      Just finished reading this thread from the beginning. Really enjoyed it. Hope you finish it soon. You are close by too. I'll have to drive mine down there and see this thing. It's going to be special...

ericjon262 MSG #303, 12-06-2014 10:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jediperk:

Just finished reading this thread from the beginning. Really enjoyed it. Hope you finish it soon. You are close by too. I'll have to drive mine down there and see this thing. It's going to be special...



Glad you enjoyed it, I'm hoping to get this heap on the road soon, I'm always game to meet other car guys!


ericjon262 MSG #304, 12-26-2014 07:47 PM
      ok, so I've been working intermittently on the tank swap, here are some cliff notes:



Left to right, you have 1985 rear strap, 87 rear strap, 85 front strap, and 87 front strap. the early straps are longer than the later straps. The rear requires that you use the earlier strap, but neither front strap is long enough for the front.



To solve this, I cut one end off of each front strap, and riveted them back together at the correct length.

I'll try to snap a couple of pictures of the new strap, along with measuring it's LOA tomorrow.

now onto sending units, the early and late senders will fit in either tank, but the later tank uses an o-ring that it much smaller in diameter than the early tank. the outlets of the senders also point in different directions, I suspect this is because the evap can on the early models is on the driver's side, and the expansion tank on the later models is on the passenger side. I stuck with the early model sender mainly because I had already modified it to better suite my needs.

Edit:

Here are some more pictures of the A-pillar pod



[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 12-26-2014).]

zkhennings MSG #305, 01-21-2015 10:39 AM
      What does the 3500 weigh? I have had a hard time finding this information. 3800 weighs ~400 from the sources I have seen, is the 3500 significant weight savings comparatively?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #306, 01-21-2015 12:47 PM
      It's about 25 lbs lighter than a 2.8, but I've never weighed either myself.

ericjon262 MSG #307, 01-21-2015 05:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:

What does the 3500 weigh? I have had a hard time finding this information. 3800 weighs ~400 from the sources I have seen, is the 3500 significant weight savings comparatively?


the heads are way lighter than the 2.8 heads, by how much, I'm not sure. I've never weighed one, but I'm sure it's lighter than an all iron 3800 by a decent margin.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #308, 01-21-2015 08:54 PM
      Bare iron heads are 26 lbs each; bare aluminum heads are 13 lbs... hence my estimate of 25# lighter than the 2.8.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-21-2015).]

ericjon262 MSG #309, 01-21-2015 08:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Bare iron heads are 26 lbs each; bare aluminum heads are 13 lbs... hence my estimate of 25# lighter than the 2.8.



I would guess the total difference to be a little higher, the front drive should shed a few pounds, less hardware in the intakes, less coolant piping, ect. my swap wouldn't be a good example though, I didn't weigh it before, and I've added alot the stock fiero didn't have (turbo, a2w intercooler and peripherals ect...)



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #310, 01-21-2015 10:03 PM
      I have no data to use as a basis for constructing an estimate based on those components.

Also: beggars'


zkhennings MSG #311, 01-22-2015 01:23 PM
      I found a few sources saying the weight is ~345 and 3800 is 395 (NA) and 2.8 is right in the middle at ~375. They are all physically similarly sized so it makes sense all three engines are within ~60lbs of each other

ericjon262 MSG #312, 01-22-2015 04:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Also: beggars'


that's twice this week...



ericjon262 MSG #313, 01-25-2015 06:49 PM
      today was a busy day, replaced the O-rings, put everything back together, gave it a shot, noth'n, checked the anti-theft settings in the computer, whoops... fixed that, and still nothing. so I hooked up the scan tool to see what the computer was seeing, and low and behold, the computer isn't getting a 7x signal from the ICM... took the ICM to the parts store, they tested it, dead on all tests! picked up a new one, turn the key for about 5 seconds, nothing, turn it again, and as I was releasing the key, it burped, and then, tried it one more time, and.... IT LIVES! it's in desperate need of a tune though, doesn't idle at all. needless to say, it made this whole weekend ****'n awesome!

I don't have a video yet, but I will try to get one soon, hopefully of it idling.



Sigler85GT (zzzsquiglerzzz@aol.com) MSG #314, 01-25-2015 07:14 PM
      Hell yeah man. Congratulations been following, want to see it run now.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #315, 01-25-2015 07:18 PM
      Refresh us on what you've done to the engine?

ericjon262 MSG #316, 01-25-2015 07:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Refresh us on what you've done to the engine?


oh the engine... it's just a stock 2.8 with 3100 heads... :P

nah, it's an 06 3500, forged crank, rods, pistons. big cam, ported heads, ported LIM, custom UIM 75mm LS1 TB, LS7 lifter internals in the stock lifters, double roller timing chain, basically a full retard build.



ericjon262 MSG #317, 01-25-2015 07:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Sigler85GT:

Hell yeah man. Congratulations been following, want to see it run now.


thanks man, it felt so good to hear it run, no matter how poorly!



KaijuSenso MSG #318, 01-26-2015 10:52 AM
      Excellent! Looking forward to the springtime videos of it driving around!

ericjon262 MSG #319, 01-26-2015 07:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:

Excellent! Looking forward to the springtime videos of it driving around!


If you think I'm gonna wait that long, you're outta you're goddamned mind I tell you what! :P



ericjon262 MSG #320, 01-26-2015 08:00 PM
      quick glance at my last log (all of 15 seconds...) shows it's running really rich, 10-11:1 upon further investigation, my fuel injector flow rate was wrong in my tune, it was off by about +15 msec/gram, I doubt that will get me exactly where I need to be, but it's one step closer. I might reflash it on my way home from work and try again(car isn't at my house...) hopefully with that and a few other tweeks I can make it happier.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #321, 01-27-2015 06:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


oh the engine... it's just a stock 2.8 with 3100 heads... :P

nah, it's an 06 3500, forged crank, rods, pistons. big cam, ported heads, ported LIM, custom UIM 75mm LS1 TB, LS7 lifter internals in the stock lifters, double roller timing chain, basically a full retard build.



There's always a fuller retard... You're not serious until you're running 1/2" pushrods.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-27-2015).]

ericjon262 MSG #322, 01-27-2015 08:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


There's always a fuller retard... You're not serious until you're running 1/2" pushrods.



lol, there's always a bigger fish! no joke though, my next big project will be running 1/2" pushrods, 2 more cylinders, insane heads, and won't be a Fiero.



ericjon262 MSG #323, 01-31-2015 06:02 PM
      sound quality is crap, but here's a short vid



ericjon262 MSG #324, 02-01-2015 12:20 AM
      I figured out earlier why I was having so much trouble with idle too...



Note: No IAC passage...

well, the LS1 TB I'm running was made to bolt to an intake with the passage cut into it... guess who forgot to cut the passage into the TB... DOH!

so, I cut a passage into the back of the TB, problem solved.



IIRC, N*'s, which use a similar TB, have the passage made into the TB, like how I have modified mine.



ericjon262 MSG #325, 02-01-2015 06:01 PM
      went for a test drive today... felt real good. haven't gone past 25% throttle yet, still feels awesome though.



ericjon262 MSG #326, 03-08-2015 10:24 PM
      this threads is a little behind...

the car has been giving me odd electrical issues for a while now, and the SES light is on when it wants to be, even though it should be illuminated for my cam position sensor circuit being fubar'd. so the past week or two has been spent working on a brand new engine harness. every wire and connector is brand spank'n new except for my battery cables that I made when I started the swap. I'm adding a fuse and relay center in the engine bay, and removing/replacing my C500. IIRC, Fieroguru said he routes the wires that come in from behind the console through the rear quarter to clean up the firewall, I liked that idea, so I am doing that as well. Today, I completely removed the old harness, and started cutting the C500 out, and made a bracket to hold the fuse/relay center. Between ditching the junky C500 and adding the fuse/relay center, my engine bay will look way better, and hopefully function better as well.


here is the C500 pinout for pins F through J for an '85 V6 automatic, I couldn't find it anywhere else, so if you need it:

F6-tan- servo position input hi
f7-brn- taillights
F8-grn/wht- trunk ajar
F9-lt grn- backup lights
F0-blk- ground

G6-lt blu/blk- servo position input lo

h6-dk blu- cruise vent valve control
H7-dk grn- right turn flash
H8-brn- trunk blower fused power
H9-orn- trunk light

j6-lt grn- cruise vac valve control
J7-lt grn/blk and ppl- brake switch
J8-yel- left turn flash
J9-dk grn/wht- blower fan



akademikjeanius MSG #327, 10-29-2015 12:03 PM
      Silently lurking for an update.

ericjon262 MSG #328, 01-11-2016 05:17 AM
      well, it's running again...

https://youtu.be/j4UYc1i8LLA



ericjon262 MSG #329, 01-17-2016 12:59 PM
      for the past week or so, I've been troubleshooting the fuel pump relay circuit, SES light, brake lights, head lights, and cooling fan. good news, all but one are now fixed! brake lights was the turn/hazard switch, headlights and cooling fan was a ground. the fuel pump relay was a little more confusing as I had checked the pins on the PCM harness a couple of times and "knew" it was right... it wasn't... I must have been tired, or drunk, or some combination of the two when I did it, because I had the relay trigger in pin 2 on the clear connector when it should have been on pin 3... DOH! works like a champ now. the SES light might have a bad bulb after all. I re checked the C203, and show 0V now. there is a +12v wire in pin b next to the ses light, so I wonder if maybe I had probed B instead of C. I've been doing all of this troubleshooting after getting off on the mid shift, so sleep deprivation has been a thing... I still have an oil leak, but it's not as bad as it was. I'm starting to wonder if it's the turbo oil feed or return. I'm gonna put it on a lift on my next day off and see if I can pinpoint the exact location of the leak and nip it in the bud. before I pass out tonight(day) I'm gonna see about making a new bin file for the tune based on a 3800 supercharged bin, so that tomorrow when I get off work I can try and light it off and see if a 3400 will run on a 3800 file. I'll post an update when it happens.



ericjon262 MSG #330, 02-02-2016 08:41 PM
      drove it today, I found it desperately needs 3 things:

1. tune, obviously
2. alignment, at 55mph or so, the car is everywhere.
3. headlights. mine suck, bad,

the combination of the two makes for a terrifying drive at night. not only can you not see where your going, but you don't know where your going either!


ericjon262 MSG #331, 02-23-2016 11:41 AM
      not much to report, the car likes to blow the maf coupling alot... I think the farthest I've taken it thus far is about 8 PSI. knock sensor seems real quiet too. I plan on putting a T-bolt on it and trying again. if that fails. not sure where I'll go next. maybe ditch the maf and revert back to obd1. the 6400 rpm tables bother me, as my engine should be able to go further than that no problem. it does pull nicely though.



ericjon262 MSG #332, 02-29-2016 05:41 PM
      my first "successful" aluminum TIG welds...







This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.


Sigler85GT (zzzsquiglerzzz@aol.com) MSG #333, 02-29-2016 06:24 PM
      Your welds look pretty good for a "first timer" loving what I see from the thread.

ericjon262 MSG #334, 02-29-2016 06:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Sigler85GT:

Your welds look pretty good for a "first timer" loving what I see from the thread.


thanks, I've welded quite a bit before, but still need practice. i'm thinking about re doing my hotside and engine mounts soon, when I do, I'm sure it will look even better.



ericjon262 MSG #335, 04-09-2016 11:08 PM
      well, the aluminum fill/thermostat housing performed about like I thought it would, just not as good as I hoped... leaked like crazy. 1 pinhole leak from a weld, and from the entire cap. I either warped the cap, or it's cheap junk I'm guessing its a combination of the 2. I reinstalled the neck I had with a bleed, and finished a high point fill that fills at the suction of the water pump, much more discrete, and should be just as effective. I took it for a spin again, seemed to still want to overheat, not as bad. I'm going to pull the rad and inspect for foreign material or signs of clogging. as well as try to flush out the cooling tubes and see if anything comes out.



f85gtron MSG #336, 04-10-2016 12:22 AM
      I think you should give up now, call it quits, and park it in my driveway. Lol.
I'm enjoying watching this build.
Good luck.


ericjon262 MSG #337, 04-10-2016 05:51 PM
     

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
Just curious about how you've planned to manage boost with a 3400 code mask that has no boosted application that I'm aware of unless there's a switch for a 2 bar MAP in it?


I was going through the thread looking for a pic of something else and saw this, almost all of the GM V6 code masks are very similar, in fact, there are flags for engine type, and cranks sensor resolution in almost all the obd2 codes, that could let you run a 3800 on 3400 code, or a 3400 on 3800 code. I've done it with my car, and it does work, but it's very time consuming to get the base tune setup.



ericjon262 MSG #338, 04-10-2016 05:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by f85gtron:

I think you should give up now, call it quits, and park it in my driveway. Lol.
I'm enjoying watching this build.
Good luck.


lol, thanks!


carbon MSG #339, 04-11-2016 09:47 AM
      LOL... I remember back when you asked me for advice once...

Excellent thread man. Love all the work on this.


KaijuSenso MSG #340, 04-11-2016 07:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

my first "successful" aluminum TIG welds...




Curious why you tried to go this route? Seems like extra work when you could just use an inline fill? Have we talked about this? I can't remember, your swap is taking too long lets get this tuned so we can see some numbers and find an excuse to boost mine!


ericjon262 MSG #341, 04-24-2016 03:45 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:


Curious why you tried to go this route? Seems like extra work when you could just use an inline fill? Have we talked about this? I can't remember, your swap is taking too long lets get this tuned so we can see some numbers and find an excuse to boost mine!


that was an inline fill... I just got a little itchy, had some filler and thought, why the hell not. I'm hoping to figure out this cooling system issue real soon so I can start enjoying it alot more...


ericjon262 MSG #342, 06-21-2016 09:49 PM
      quick update, did a pneumatic test of the cooling system, went to 22 PSI, and was at 20 PSI in 2 minutes, took about 23 minutes to go from 22 psi to 12 psi. not sure how much (if any) was test rig leakage vice system leakage. I'm going to fill the system, and start the car to see how quick pressure builds, if it immediately jumps, probably the headgasket, if it doesn't, probably not. . If it doesn't point towards that, I'm gonna back the car out of the garage, clean the floor, and lay down some paper, refill the system with water and dye, and re-pressurize to see if I can pinpoint a leak location.

radiator cap pressure tested out fine. we'll see what happens next...


ericjon262 MSG #343, 06-25-2016 10:07 AM
      re-torqued the head gaskets the other night, wasn't real happy when I got almost a whole turn on several of the studs. between that replacing a couple of old worn looking hoses. the cooling system appears to be holding pressure I haven't done a high pressure test yet. I'm also about 2/3's of the way done with my low mount alternator bracket. the alternator will be mounted near where it was on the stock 2.8, but still retain the factory 3x00 accessory drive (serpentine belt). I re-clocked the stock bracket so it points down, and am adding a few steel supports so the cheap cast aluminum won't fail.

pretty crappy picture, I'll take more as I finish it up.



all I have left to do is fab up the lower mount, and a heat shield to protect it from the exhaust. the idler pulley pictured directly above the alternator most likely won't be necessary. the plan is to use a LT1 (gen 2) f-body belt tensioner between the alternator and crank pulley.

this will allow me to install a dogbone again in the stock location, as well as put a valve cover with an oil fill on the rear head, which is much more convenient.


KaijuSenso MSG #344, 06-26-2016 10:31 AM
      Still waiting patiently to see this car driving!

ericjon262 MSG #345, 06-26-2016 08:37 PM
      you're not the only one. soon, it will happen.

ericjon262 MSG #346, 06-27-2016 07:08 PM
      well, I got fed up with trying to make the stock bracket do what I wanted, so I ditched it and the stock alternator and began whipping up a bracket of my own design, so far, it's looking decent, but I still have quite a bit of work to do. the new alternator is off of a 2003 gmc safari w/4.3 v6. it's dimensionally very similar(slightly smaller case.), but it mounts with bolts parallel to the axis of rotation of the rotor instead of perpendicularly. I chose this alternator because it will be easier to mount imo, I'll post pictures when I take some later tonight.

The trick is still going to be making the tensioner work, which is proving to be more of a nightmare than expected.


ericjon262 MSG #347, 06-28-2016 12:26 AM
      still a work in progress, but it's coming along nicely.





a couple of pics comparing the two alternators. you can see that they are pretty much identical except for the mounts.





sorry about the crappy pics. I'll try to get better ones with daylight...


ericjon262 MSG #348, 07-09-2016 01:36 PM
      This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

still don't have better pics of the "new" alternator in daylight, but the new low mount alternator is about halfway done. still need to get the tensioner mounted, and add some bracing so it won't flex under load.


ericjon262 MSG #349, 07-10-2016 12:55 PM
      the promised pictures of the "new" alternator in daylight. also, in case I didn't already say it, I am only using this JY alternator as a mockup, it will either be replaced or rebuilt as necessary.

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and here's some more pictures of the new alternator/tensioner bracket.

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installed:

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right now, there are two big things left. the tensioner is currently through bolted to the bracket, for the rear bolt, that's fine and good, for the front, it's a no go as it hits the nut hits the block and doesn't let the bracket sit flat. to combat this, I'm going to weld a stud to the bracket and have the nut on the opposite side. the other thing, if ti wasn't clear in the "installed picture, is to make a mount for an idler pulley above the tensioner. other than those to big-ish things, I'm also going to add a few supports to limit the amount of flex the bracket can see. I'm pretty happy I've been able to make this work with "wear parts" that are all available off the shelf, without having to be modified for installation, so if I blow and alternator, or tensioner, a quick stop anywhere should be able to yield a replacement.


ericjon262 MSG #350, 07-11-2016 02:24 PM
      so at this point, the bracket is about 80-95% done, seems pretty strong, the only thing I'm concerned about is belt wrap on the crank pulley. right now, it looks like the best I'll be able to get is about 180*. I'm gonna give it a shot and see how it does, if it squeals like a stuck pig, I'll try a few ideas I have.

In other news, I'm also working on converting the valvetrain to a full roller, adjustable setup. on a 3500, there are a few problems to overcome to make the conversion.

1. no guideplates available. I've got a solution I'm working on for that now though.
2. no conversion studs in long enough to make me happy, I've got about 25mm of threads in the head. the longest conversion stud I've seen only extends 20 mm into the head, which would be ok if it would be threaded directly into the head, but there's going to be a custom guideplate in between the head and the stud, which will further reduce the thread engagement. if it was in iron, I would have no worries at all about it, but going into soft cast aluminum, it's a spot where overkill is underrated. Thankfully, I have an extra set of heads I can use to test fit components on.


ericjon262 MSG #351, 07-13-2016 10:18 AM
      I test mounted the new alternator bracket, looks pretty good, just hope belt wrap isn't an issue.

in other news, I made up a quick drawing of an idea I have that would allow me to use fully adjustable rockers on my 3500, assuming I can find studs that will work...



the stock pedestal mount rockers have a groove that aligns the rocker to the valve, my thought, if the groove is good enough for the pedestal, why wouldn't it be good enough for a guideplate. nobody makes guideplates for a 3500, and because the valve are canted, a off the shelf guide won't work, as the angles won't match up.

Thoughts?


engine man (fieroa8@gmail.com) MSG #352, 07-13-2016 11:31 AM
      you are trying to guide the push rods right so the rockers wont turn ? if that is what you are looking to do why not get BBC guide plates and cut them in the middle if needed and make them the width you need bolt them to a bare spare head and weld back together it is just a thought and by the way you are doing a great job would love to see this car some day

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 07-13-2016).]

ericjon262 MSG #353, 07-13-2016 01:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

you are trying to guide the push rods right so the rockers wont turn ? if that is what you are looking to do why not get BBC guide plates and cut them in the middle if needed and make them the width you need bolt them to a bare spare head and weld back together it is just a thought and by the way you are doing a great job would love to see this car some day



I've thought about doing that, big thing is the stud size though, on a BBC, you're looking at a 3/8" or 7/16" stud, on the 3500, it's a 8mm stud, which is closer to 5/16" it would be alot of modification to make work.


ericjon262 MSG #354, 07-15-2016 05:37 PM
      good news, alternator bracket works, no odd noises or anything, belt wasn't destroyed in seconds, nothing exciting happened, it just worked! the car didn't overheat for the short time I ran it in the driveway, which is another plus!

ericjon262 MSG #355, 07-16-2016 07:47 PM
      a short video for the haters and non-believers. beware, it's real low quality...

https://youtu.be/poXUW6gbIe0


ericjon262 MSG #356, 07-25-2016 06:52 PM
      car ran good the other day, needs lots of tuning done, esp for idle recovery. it didn't overheat over the coarse of about 6-7 miles I drove it, which is good, but towards the end of the drive. temperatures started to go up, nothing crazy, but it went from about 82-84 c to about 90-92 c when I turned it off. could be something, could be nothing. gonna pick up some dye and see if I can find any more leaks...

also, started rendering a new exhaust...





ericjon262 MSG #357, 08-04-2016 04:04 AM
      so, the oil line to the turbo blew the hose end off, not 100% sure if it was an install error, material failure, or a combination of the two. either way, the turbo is trashed, new ebay turbo on the way to replace it for the time being.

I've continued with my new exhaust plans. the design is currently weld els and pipe, plan is full stainless for better thermal durability. I'm also planning on upgrading the turbo when the new exhaust is complete and installed.

Version 1.0



Looked cool, but bad measurements ruined this design...

Version 2.0



good measurements, very close to equal length, but very complicated, and expensive to build.

Version 3.0...



not really all that close to equal length, but as the gas velocity goes up, the distance becomes a smaller and smaller part of the big picture. as an added benefit, this design would cost quite a bit less than most of the others previously shown. I can potentially get them closer to equal length by adding spacers in the 180* bend in the #6 primary.it would be super awesome to have a rendering of a 3500 F23 setup right now to do a digital test fit... oh well, just have to take lots of measurements on the one in the garage and verify fitment that way...


KaijuSenso MSG #358, 08-04-2016 05:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

so, the oil line to the turbo blew the hose end off, not 100% sure if it was an install error, material failure, or a combination of the two. either way, the turbo is trashed, new ebay turbo on the way to replace it for the time being


Awe man seriously!? Was there something building pressure in the line like a plug in the turbo or something?


ericjon262 MSG #359, 08-05-2016 01:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KaijuSenso:


Awe man seriously!? Was there something building pressure in the line like a plug in the turbo or something?



to my knowledge, no, it is possible, but I have no evidence to suggest what exactly caused it.



Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #360, 08-05-2016 06:45 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
to my knowledge, no, it is possible, but I have no evidence to suggest what exactly caused it.


If you are running oil to a turbo a standard rubber oil line held on a hose nipple by clamps will not hold. Either use a steel line, double flared with brass fittings (preferred) at the ends or AR fittings and stainless steel braided lines.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #361, 08-05-2016 08:26 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
If you are running oil to a turbo a standard rubber oil line held on a hose nipple by clamps will not hold. Either use a steel line, double flared with brass fittings (preferred) at the ends or AR fittings and stainless steel braided lines.


What he said eric, unless you know exactly what to look for you can't trust a bulk oil hose purchase from a counter man/woman who doesn't understand the difference between oil hose, oil resistant hose and heater hose. On my very first turbo build I used what I was told was oil hose clamped on to nipples which will hold as long as they have good shark-bite ridges. One day while working on the car I bumped a hose at the turbo and it broke off. It had become extremely brittle in just a few weeks of use. Not sure what they gave me but my mistake was not looking at the temp range usually stamped on the hose which needs to be at least 300 deg as I've measured 240 plus with a turbo and no oil cooler. Since that incident I used metal brake line or braided PTFE.

As for your headers, keep it simple with a turbo, as simple as you did on page 4. The only thing I would do is make it tighter with shorter radius mandrel bends. If you're not racing it you're unlikely to gain any real benefit from the added heat and leak risk from the spaghetti outfit not to mention it would need to be stainless for longevity if you're planning to wrap it.

If it's not too late get a turbo with a water cooled center. It will not protect against oil starvation but it will certainly increase longevity.



ericjon262 MSG #362, 08-05-2016 01:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


If you are running oil to a turbo a standard rubber oil line held on a hose nipple by clamps will not hold. Either use a steel line, double flared with brass fittings (preferred) at the ends or AR fittings and stainless steel braided lines.



the old line was a stainless braided line from silicone intakes using AN fittings. the new line is aeroquip stainless with new AN fittings.


 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


What he said eric, unless you know exactly what to look for you can't trust a bulk oil hose purchase from a counter man/woman who doesn't understand the difference between oil hose, oil resistant hose and heater hose. On my very first turbo build I used what I was told was oil hose clamped on to nipples which will hold as long as they have good shark-bite ridges. One day while working on the car I bumped a hose at the turbo and it broke off. It had become extremely brittle in just a few weeks of use. Not sure what they gave me but my mistake was not looking at the temp range usually stamped on the hose which needs to be at least 300 deg as I've measured 240 plus with a turbo and no oil cooler. Since that incident I used metal brake line or braided PTFE.

As for your headers, keep it simple with a turbo, as simple as you did on page 4. The only thing I would do is make it tighter with shorter radius mandrel bends. If you're not racing it you're unlikely to gain any real benefit from the added heat and leak risk from the spaghetti outfit not to mention it would need to be stainless for longevity if you're planning to wrap it.

If it's not too late get a turbo with a water cooled center. It will not protect against oil starvation but it will certainly increase longevity.


I'm designing the new exhaust to be made of stainless weld el's, I'm planning on schedule 40, but I haven't decided on the specific alloy yet, probably 316L. I am considering trying to do VGT to some degree with the new setup.

for now, the turbo will be pretty much identical to what I already have, so I can get the car rolling again sooner.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #363, 08-05-2016 02:08 PM
      You just scared me because my oil line is braided AN fitted line from siliconeintakes. It has been on the car for about 5 yrs now. I was going to suggest schedule 40 elbows for the exhaust. Once put together you should have trouble free service. I'm sure you're on top of it but just in case make sure you use studs for the exhaust and elongate any close fitting exhaust bolt hole to reduce the possibility of shearing anything off.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-05-2016).]

ericjon262 MSG #364, 08-05-2016 02:38 PM
      did you use their fittings? I don't remember seeing anything on their site about using their fittings when I bought the lines, and the fitting I used is a standard hose end. I think that may be the root of my failure, but it's hard to say for sure.

on a separate, but related note, I was using their hose for my fuel lines, and the high pressure line failed in the middle of the line. no sign of damage, just blew out.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #365, 08-05-2016 03:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

did you use their fittings? I don't remember seeing anything on their site about using their fittings when I bought the lines, and the fitting I used is a standard hose end. I think that may be the root of my failure, but it's hard to say for sure.

on a separate, but related note, I was using their hose for my fuel lines, and the high pressure line failed in the middle of the line. no sign of damage, just blew out.


Yes I used their fittings. I have two types of braided line. The first I used I believe is called CPE for the fuel line. I prefer that braided line because it is much more flexible than the PTFE which is what the OE plastic looking fuel line found connected to modern fuel rails is.

The draw back is that the CPE is porous and although it doesn't out right leak fuel, it does tend to bleed through and in some cases can give off fumes and apparently that is one of the reasons PTFE has come about, I believe it also allows some oil to bleed through a little. I purchased it off ebay along with fittings which had a different locking mechanism attachment to the hose. The siliconeintakes fittings were a bit more sophisticated and dependable and now that I think about it, if you attempted to clamp the braided PTFE line to a nipple I'm pretty certain that's where your trouble started as that inner hose which is more like a hard plastic line probably didn't compress much. The CPE looks like a thin rubber braided hose and would have worked well with just a clamp.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 08-05-2016).]

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #366, 08-06-2016 08:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
PTFE which is what the OE plastic looking fuel line found connected to modern fuel rails is.


The black stuff? That's actually Nylon. Good for gas, air and vacuum, but it can get brittle with heat.

PTFE or teflon itself is extremely soft and weak, it can't take any pressure before it ruptures. However, it is resilient to pretty much all chemicals. Oil, refrigerant, coolant, gas, alcohol? No problem. It's the braid itself that is actually what is holding the pressure keeping the line from ballooning. That's why they require special fittings that actually grab and anchor back the braid instead of just freely clamp around the outside. Usually you want to keep the temperature under 250f or so. Teflon gets far softer with temperature. With the correct fittings, it can hold hundreds of PSI, to around 1000 depending on size and the fitting type.

Silicone should be avoided with anything other then air or coolant. Oil and gas cause it to swell up.

It's also important to never over tighten a hose clamp, especially over a barb fitting and even more so with silicone. You tighten the hose clamp down too much and the barbs will begin to slice the inside of the pressure holding part of the hose, which is everything from the internal braid inwards. once that layer gets pierced, fluid will fill the outer jacket causing ballooning and rupturing of the hose, usually catastrophically.


ericjon262 MSG #367, 08-07-2016 12:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Yes I used their fittings. I have two types of braided line. The first I used I believe is called CPE for the fuel line. I prefer that braided line because it is much more flexible than the PTFE which is what the OE plastic looking fuel line found connected to modern fuel rails is.

The draw back is that the CPE is porous and although it doesn't out right leak fuel, it does tend to bleed through and in some cases can give off fumes and apparently that is one of the reasons PTFE has come about, I believe it also allows some oil to bleed through a little. I purchased it off ebay along with fittings which had a different locking mechanism attachment to the hose. The siliconeintakes fittings were a bit more sophisticated and dependable and now that I think about it, if you attempted to clamp the braided PTFE line to a nipple I'm pretty certain that's where your trouble started as that inner hose which is more like a hard plastic line probably didn't compress much. The CPE looks like a thin rubber braided hose and would have worked well with just a clamp.



I didn't clamp the SI stuff to a nipple... I used a standard, off the shelf, hose end. I'm dumb, but not quite stupid... the new line is an aeroquip line, using aeroquip hose ends. after having multiple failures with the SI stuff, I won't be using it again. I'll stick to the tried and true products from eaton/aeroquip.


ericjon262 MSG #368, 08-10-2016 03:02 AM
      well, when I built this thing I was thinking I could just unbolt the ebay POS turbo, and bolt in something reliable, well, my earlier attempts to remove the turbo to replace it proves that my design was crap and to remove and replace the turbo is probably going to require me to drop the cradle for the install... it's gonna be a royal PITA the whole way...

ericjon262 MSG #369, 08-18-2016 09:41 AM
      old turbo is out, the turbo I ordered had the wrong outlet flange, so it's going back. I ordered a different turbo, that appears to be closer to what I purchased 3 or 4 years ago.

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #370, 08-18-2016 11:07 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
old turbo is out, the turbo I ordered had the wrong outlet flange, so it's going back. I ordered a different turbo, that appears to be closer to what I purchased 3 or 4 years ago.


You should be able to rebuild the first one also for a backup if the failure was not catastrophic and mainly a smoke out from bearing play. It's pretty straight forward with a complete rebuild kit.



ericjon262 MSG #371, 08-18-2016 11:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


You should be able to rebuild the first one also for a backup if the failure was not catastrophic and mainly a smoke out from bearing play. It's pretty straight forward with a complete rebuild kit.


I could, but I don't plan on keeping this turbo on the car for the long haul, sometime next year I'm going to completely redo the turbo setup and put a much better ball bearing unit in.


ericjon262 MSG #372, 10-01-2016 11:57 PM
      running again, new exhaust too.

https://youtu.be/BENwa-31478


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #373, 10-02-2016 07:45 AM
      Sounds great, be cool in residential areas and don't be too enthusiastic when rowing through the gears in the neighborhood because that exhaust is going to echo louder inside homes than it will inside the car and you may find a cop hiding in the area looking for you after enough complaints role in. There's (was) an obnoxiously loud Honda that passes by my neighborhood like clock work probably going back and forth to work which i'm sure has made a lot of people angry. Not long after, I noticed a cop car parked behind a building about 50 yards from the parking lot he turns out of onto the main street to start his routine.

It's fixed now. It wasn't so much his speed that I observed as it was the ridiculously loud exhaust which he probably had no idea was excruciatingly loud to those in the homes he passed. Four cylinder motors with little to no exhaust sound horrible and I suspect the cops caught up to him and pointed that out probably resulting in a proper muffler (sounded like about 5 ft of pipe and no muffler with the end dragging the ground). Just a warning because I found myself in a similar situation years back early in the morning and had no idea how effectively the exhaust echoed off high surroundings despite being a good distance from surrounding homes. I crested a hill early one morning and saw a cruiser in the median pointed rt at me and got the message to keep the exhaust cutout closed or the rpms down.


ericjon262 MSG #374, 02-26-2017 10:28 PM
      so, had some odd issues shortly after posting the last video, drove it about 20 miles, as I was pulling up to the house, it stopped, as if I reached up and turned the car off. I did what I could to troubleshoot the cause, and didn't have very good results, the problems I was experiencing were also surprisingly similar to issues I was having with this car years ago before I started the engine swap. everything points to some kind of electrical problem, the engine harness was new, so I had my doubts it was the problem, the main harness, though was still a big unknown, and I decided to swap the entire harness from the C100 and fuse block, to the C500 with one I had from another car. I'm not sure it will fix anything, but at this point, it was the only thing left of the original car.

I've also begun installing a Megasquirt MS3x in the car, and making some upgrades to be able to take full advantage of the new EMS, I've got a set of LS2 coils, and am also installing a flexfuel sensor. the MS3x is being setup much like a total standalone setup, just add 12V so that if there is an issue somewhere in the chassis harness that is somehow affecting the ability of the car to run, it won't matter unless it's so drastic that it cuts 12V to the MS3.

here's the install so far:





it's mounted to a marine plastic called "Starboard", which I mounted to the firewall behind the passenger seat using mounts for an MSD box to isolate vibrations. I also designed a cable support to make sure the connectors don't flex on the cards inside the MS3.

the setup is far from perfect, but it should perform well.

beyond that, the replacement of the main harness showed me I was missing a metric shitload of interior screws, I picked up some more screws, and now my interior plastics are way more solid than they were, which should make it much more pleasurable to drive, and I welded in a 2x3 crossmember to an 88 cradle I have here so I can get started on remounting the engine and transmission better using mount bushings either from here:

https://liquidironindustrie...ve-with-Bushing.html

or have some made, $15 isn't too pricey though. the main thing I don't like is that they use 9/16" bolts, not metric.


ericjon262 MSG #375, 02-27-2017 09:28 PM
      started the mounts for the LS2 coils, they need slight reinforcement, but shoult work ok until I find a better way to mount them. I'm thinking about modifying a set of valve covers to mount them similar to how they are done on a stock LS1/2, but this should get the car running for now.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #376, 02-28-2017 10:04 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

started the mounts for the LS2 coils, they need slight reinforcement, but shoult work ok until I find a better way to mount them. I'm thinking about modifying a set of valve covers to mount them similar to how they are done on a stock LS1/2, but this should get the car running for now.



Why did you decide to go with LS1 coils as opposed to the less complicated stock coils? I know that sounds a bit hypocritical given the number of times I've taken the proverbial back door to get to the front yard but now I know less is better.


ericjon262 MSG #377, 02-28-2017 10:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
Why did you decide to go with LS1 coils as opposed to the less complicated stock coils? I know that sounds a bit hypocritical given the number of times I've taken the proverbial back door to get to the front yard but now I know less is better.


hotter spark (shorter plug wires and better coils), Longer plug life, and it eliminates the ignition module. I will agree that the spark probably isn't that much hotter, but it also opens the door for the use of any coil that replaces an LS2 coil. I also already had the hardware on hand, just had to install it.


ericjon262 MSG #378, 02-28-2017 08:45 PM
      more progress on the wiring, it's shaping up nicely so far, just slow going as expected...







I've decided to make no attempt to hide any wiring this round. all it does is make troubleshooting harder. function before form. I've mounted the speedometer converter next to the recently mounted fuse/relay center. working on installing a digital cruise control module as well, hopefully in the engine compartment behind the passenger seat, need to get a cable before mounting it though.


Spadesluck MSG #379, 03-02-2017 12:16 AM
      Following. I like you persistence, many would have just called it quits after a few failed attempts. Once all the little bugs are worked out it should perform well.

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #380, 03-02-2017 12:59 PM
      I'm anticipating a new non Fiero project in the near future and thought I'd pass an idea I have on to you. I found it difficult to install an exhaust system that was both free flowing and quiet due to space constraints. I settled on an electric exhaust cut out which worked well. The car was quiet enough with the cutout closed for neighborhoods and open enough with the cutout open to prevent restricting the turbo.

I read where you intended to dump the waste gate exhaust down stream back into the down pipe ahead of the muffler. You can do an open dump with the waste gate without it making a lot of fuss by adding a foot or so of pipe onto it. I used a stretch of flexible exhaust from Advance which worked very nice. I would hear a brief "whoop" sound like blowing over the opening of a jug inside the car when it opened which was rather harmonious instead of sounding like a high pressure exhaust leak.

As for insuring good exhaust flow, instead of another electric exhaust cutout, I'm going to use an appropriate sized external waste gate with a manual adjuster, mounted ahead of the muffler, adjusted to open at the desired boost pressure to open dump or, bypass the muffler and dump inside the exhaust down stream of the muffler. It's more efficient than an electric cutout in that it will open and close automatically. Just something to consider.


ericjon262 MSG #381, 03-05-2017 12:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Spadesluck:

Following. I like you persistence, many would have just called it quits after a few failed attempts. Once all the little bugs are worked out it should perform well.


lol, well, quitters never win.

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

I'm anticipating a new non Fiero project in the near future and thought I'd pass an idea I have on to you. I found it difficult to install an exhaust system that was both free flowing and quiet due to space constraints. I settled on an electric exhaust cut out which worked well. The car was quiet enough with the cutout closed for neighborhoods and open enough with the cutout open to prevent restricting the turbo.

I read where you intended to dump the waste gate exhaust down stream back into the down pipe ahead of the muffler. You can do an open dump with the waste gate without it making a lot of fuss by adding a foot or so of pipe onto it. I used a stretch of flexible exhaust from Advance which worked very nice. I would hear a brief "whoop" sound like blowing over the opening of a jug inside the car when it opened which was rather harmonious instead of sounding like a high pressure exhaust leak.

As for insuring good exhaust flow, instead of another electric exhaust cutout, I'm going to use an appropriate sized external waste gate with a manual adjuster, mounted ahead of the muffler, adjusted to open at the desired boost pressure to open dump or, bypass the muffler and dump inside the exhaust down stream of the muffler. It's more efficient than an electric cutout in that it will open and close automatically. Just something to consider.


I've got a couple of non-fiero projects in the planning/R&D phases right now. for the past 2 years I've been slowly collecting nascar V8 parts for install in a firebird, and I've more recently started thinking about my "White whale" again, which should be more fun than anything else I'll ever build.

the "White whale" is still deep in the planning stages, because execution of the plan will be extremely difficult, and take years of engineering and hard work to accomplish. the plan is to build a a car modeled after 1960's style F1 cars, (the easy part), the engine I'm planning is a semi-custom DOHC V12

both of those will be N/a though. I still plan to dump the WG into the down pipe and not atmo dump it either way. I prefer all the exhaust to leave through the tailpipe.



ericjon262 MSG #382, 03-11-2017 11:55 PM
      coil mount version 2.0





ugly, but worked...

then came version 3.0, which I forgot to take a picture of...

then version 3.1. which was just a shortened version of 3.0



but, 3.1 wouldn't work on the front and back, just the back, so, version 3.0 was used in the front, 3.1 in the back, forming version 3.1.1



much cleaner., very functional, and should be able to use off the shelf LS2 plug wires.

at this point, I'm probably about 50% done with the wiring, which I have also made much cleaner looking.(the mess int he pictures is just part of the process) I've also finalized the location of the flexfuel sensor.

I also picked up another F23 and began working on a scattershield for the bellhousing, nothing fun yet, just a bell with some heavy sleeves around the bolts.



hopefully tomorrow will be as productive as today was.



ericjon262 MSG #383, 04-11-2017 09:27 AM
      I haven't updated this in a bit...

I started working on installing what are pretty much 13" C5 front brakes on all four corners, got the back left done, gonna try and get the back right done tomorrow. I have some brackets made by sluppy123 that should make the fronts easy-ish.

installed a knock module on my MS3x, but installed a cable inside the MS3x wrong and fried it like a retard... new one on order... yeah, that hurt.

wiring wise, the install is pretty much done, everything is in nice and tight, just need to install loom over the wire, and do some of the final setup of the dakota digital SGI 5e (if you've wired one up to a fiero, I'm interested in what settings you used...)

other than that, new wheels and tires are on order, wheels and back tires should be here tomorrow, still waiting on shipping confirmation for the fronts. got a bunch of hose and fittings on the way as well, and a shiny new really awesome tool.



ericjon262 MSG #384, 04-30-2017 11:13 PM
      got the rear transmission mount finished, and the engine mount is almost done. I threw it in and realized I don't have much clearance to the axle in the region to the left of the left side upright, so I am going to notch the tube to make more clearance. I'm pretty much done with the scattershield, I just need to do some final welding, then I'm going to integrate the front trans mount into it. hopefully that will be done tomorrow and I can focus on relocating the strut tops inboard for the 88 cradle and fixing the cage nut that broke loose.



ericjon262 MSG #385, 05-10-2017 01:00 PM
      quick update, after working 14-16 hour days in the garage for a week, the engine is back in the car, I have some small details that need to be ironed out, but it's there. I also fixed lots of little things while the engine was out, the shifter is now way tighter thanks to a tack weld and a bushing on the transmission end of the mechanism, and the engine mounts are probably an order of magnitude stronger and will provide much better anti-rotation characteristics than the previous setup. I may still add a dog bone up top as well, but I'm unsure if I will do that yet. I also cut out the hinge boxes, they were in the way, and my car hasn't had hinges for the decklid in years, it's been a pin on. I also re-located the oil filter relocation to the front left corner of the cradle, it's now much more out of the way than it was.



To-Do

heater core lines
main coolant lines to the wp and thermostat
re-install exhaust
re-work the intercooler bracket, and maybe replace the intercooler for better form-factor
replace the throttle cable bracket with something I can put CC on.
finish MS3x setup (pull up resistors and code)
repair or replace driver's side axle



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #386, 05-10-2017 06:45 PM
      I see you've installed your new struts, pretty much stuck as far as possible to the inside without doing any modifications. Looks quite clean; not a ghetto hack-job

I was thinking, for the scattershield, I guess you'll be welding steel pieces to the sleeves? Probably low-strength easily-weldable mild steel is preferred in this application. If the scattershield is too brittle, it too may become a projectile!

I always like to begin by studying old tech, such as state-of-the art battleship armour. Though in your backyard you won't get anywhere near the sophistication of WW2 armour, perhaps WW1 1800s tech at best.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 05-10-2017).]

ericjon262 MSG #387, 05-11-2017 11:37 AM
      the shield is done, I made it in 3/16" steel, hammered to shape and welded to the sleeves,



note the oil filter relocation is visible in the lower left hand corner. I'm getting ready to fab up a new thermostat housing that points the hose down over the shield as well. I feel much safer with it now, if the flywheel lets go, it has quite a bit of material to go through before it gets to me.

I don't think overly hard is a thing in this scenario, the shield would have to have some pretty serious defects to become a projectile in the event of a FW failure.



ericjon262 MSG #388, 05-13-2017 02:18 AM
      started working on getting the new front brakes on, had to cut down a hub, wasn't too hard, I did it on the car with an angle grinder and a BFH. I rotated the hub opposite of the rotation of the grinder, and slowly cut in at about a 45* angle. once I thought I had gone far enough, I gave it a couple swift hits with the hammer to separate the rotor. I'm going to dress the back side when I install longer studs. I did also run into a new interesting problem though.... the old exhaust doesn't clear the new rear crossmember... I'm kinda thinking about installing a pipe that just sticks out the top of the decklid for now, just to be ridiculous until I can come up with a more engineered solution. things are starting to shape up nicely though.



ericjon262 MSG #389, 05-15-2017 03:16 AM
      got a new C/V axle today, was going to install it tonight, but was very late getting off work, so decided it would wait until tomorrow.

Spadesluck MSG #390, 05-15-2017 03:25 AM
      Keep up the good work.

ericjon262 MSG #391, 05-15-2017 11:04 AM
      here's a teaser pic of what's to come... (it's on jackstands, not really that high...)



ericjon262 MSG #392, 05-28-2017 10:45 PM
      been working on the rear brakes, I've taken lots of measurements and came up with this:



which I had 3d printed for a test fit:



I then found my measurements were off by 0.040, so I revised my drawing, and am now having them cut in billet 7075 aluminum.

I've also been working on some updates to the cooling system. I wanted to swap to AN fittings for as much of the fluid systems as I could, hose clamps suck, but when I asked about a compression fitting for 5/8" tube to -10 an, they said it didn't exist, told them to hold my beer while I made it exist.



I still need to find a solution for the water pump suction, with the 88 cradle swap, the tube and hose no longer work a prescribed, so I need to bend or weld, a solution, or spend somewhere around $150-300 on a huge compression fitting.



lateFormula MSG #393, 05-29-2017 10:07 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I'm designing the new exhaust to be made of stainless weld el's, I'm planning on schedule 40, but I haven't decided on the specific alloy yet, probably 316L.


I would suggest that you look into 321 stainless for your exhaust (everything before the turbo) as 321 has better fatigue resistance due to high temp cycling. Get it here:http://www.burnsstainless.com/321sstubing.aspx


fieroguru MSG #394, 05-29-2017 02:18 PM
      Looking good!

For others who don't have access to a welder the 5/8 compression fitting with female 1/2" NPT is readily available:
https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/69496

Thread it over a male 1/2" NPT to -10AN fitting like this:
https://www.summitracing.co...-190110-bl/overview/


ericjon262 MSG #395, 05-29-2017 06:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lateFormula:
I would suggest that you look into 321 stainless for your exhaust (everything before the turbo) as 321 has better fatigue resistance due to high temp cycling. Get it here:http://www.burnsstainless.com/321sstubing.aspx


I was looking at 321 weld el's for the hotside, that's still a work in progress, lots of changes to make there, but with time, it'll be better.


 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Looking good!



Thanks, it's been a ton of work! and still more to come!
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

For others who don't have access to a welder the 5/8 compression fitting with female 1/2" NPT is readily available:
https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/69496

Thread it over a male 1/2" NPT to -10AN fitting like this:
https://www.summitracing.co...-190110-bl/overview/


My fitting started out as compression with male NPT threads and an adapter from 1/2" npt to -10 JIC(AN) but I didn't like the bulk of the combined fitting, so I cut them down and welded them. I'm also using swageloc style compression fittings, I've always had really good luck with them.



ericjon262 MSG #396, 06-03-2017 11:34 PM
      brackets cut in billet!



and now, C5 front brakes on and 88 knuckle!



still need to make up some lines, but otherwise, it's pretty much done. should stop on a dime and give nine cents change.

I'll post the bracket dimensions along with details of the necessary modifications once I have all those details hammered out. theoretically, they should work on 88 fronts as well, but I have no way to confirm it as my car is an 85.


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #397, 06-03-2017 11:58 PM
      As some kind of a criticism/suggestion that's a little late, I would remove the paint from the caliper brackets on the clamping surfaces.

When I paint that sort of part, I mask the areas under bolt heads, etc, with round self-adhesive paper stickers from Staples.

The paint can collapse under the pressure from a bolt squeezing it. If this happens, then the bolted joint may become loose.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 06-03-2017).]

ericjon262 MSG #398, 06-04-2017 11:07 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

As some kind of a criticism/suggestion that's a little late, I would remove the paint from the caliper brackets on the clamping surfaces.

When I paint that sort of part, I mask the areas under bolt heads, etc, with round self-adhesive paper stickers from Staples.

The paint can collapse under the pressure from a bolt squeezing it. If this happens, then the bolted joint may become loose.


it's powder coat, way tougher than paint. I'm not too worried about it, thanks for the suggestion though. I'll keep an eye on it.

here are the dimensions.



I'm the lower bolt holes are offset by 0.195 from the upper bolt holes.

The caliper bracket required some minor trimming to make fit the fiero, in the area inboard of the mounting bolts. the drawing in paint makes it look more severe than it is in real life. this bracket may work on the front, but I haven't tested it yet.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #399, 06-04-2017 12:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
it's powder coat, way tougher than paint. I'm not too worried about it, thanks for the suggestion though. I'll keep an eye on it.


Firstly, there's a decent chance that nothing will happen.

Now when I was younger and dumber, I painted the rear brake calipers of my first car (a Saturn SL2). Blissfully unaware of best practices, I spray bombed (shitty enamel that was definitely softer than powder coat) everything with impunity. The glossy red was what mattered!

A few days later, while driving home from work (a 15-mile freeway commute with traffic), I heard a "clunk" noise every time I applied the brakes. So I got off the road, and I discovered that my caliper bracket bolts had backed out about one turn. Having zero tools in the car, I finger-tightened the bolts, and continued on my way. I got home by finger re-tightening the bolts about every 3 miles...

So anyway, IF you happen to hear a clunk noise on braking, consider the loss in joint preload as a probable cause.

To say something good about the brackets, the generous concave corner radius on the raised 0.195" section is a nice detail.


ericjon262 MSG #400, 06-10-2017 09:55 AM
      I made a "surge tank" to be mounted in the engine compartment. the tank will have the recirc line from the thermostat, and the return from the heater core going to it. then a line going back to the water pump. it should act as an excellent hi point fill, as well as an air trap.



all of my welds have held to over 120 PSI. once the cooling system is buttoned up, I'll remove the schrader valve installed in the cap and put a bleeder valve in to vent air from the system.

I got the rear brakes bled, moved on to the front and found that my front left line was leaking at the banjo bolt, I tightened it up a bit and almost immediately stripped the banjo... DOH! looks like I need a new caliper.


ericjon262 MSG #401, 06-13-2017 12:11 AM
      welded up a new thermostat housing, we'll see if the welds are watertight...







the outlet is now approx parallel with the scattershield, which should make hose routing easier.

I finished up the surge tank, I'm gonna try an dget it mounted up tomorrow, I have all the fittings on order, and will get a ton of hose from a local supplier.





the car is back on four wheels again, I love the look of the new wheels, but want to lower the the car about 1" to close up the wheel gap some.





ericjon262 MSG #402, 06-21-2017 04:57 AM
      lots of stuff going on this week, gonna try and get the cooling system finalized, I'm currently waiting on some -12 45 degree fittings for the heater lines, and recirc lines, I've also ordered a new pair of fuel filters, a 40 micron, and 6 micron, and new screens for the injectors, I also discovered tonight that the lower port on my wastegate is leaking like mad. I ordered a replacement and should have it by friday I hope. I also ordered some stainless tubing to make fuel lines for the new filter arrangement. the next big thing I'm going to tackle is the intercooler mount and locaction, with the new subframe and engine mounts, the intercooler no longer fits where I had it with the same mount, I've got a couple of ideas, but I'm not sure what I'll do yet.

Not an easy place to install a tube flare...



no more hose clamps...




New hoses



heater core supply line





general hose routing





zkhennings MSG #403, 06-23-2017 03:30 PM
      Build is looking sweet. Those new wheels look great, not a huge fan of many of the aftermarket wheels I see on Fieros, but those work. AN hoses/fittings are so convenient, functional, and look great. I've installed a bunch in my subies engine bay, makes pulling the motor a breeze, going to follow suit with the Fiero.

Getting close to driving it again? Car looked fast in the iphone vid, and that 60* V6 turbo makes all the right sounds.


ericjon262 MSG #404, 06-24-2017 12:36 PM
      Thanks,I hope to be driving it again soon, but I'm not holding my breath., it sounds way more awesome in person than in video.

welded up the passenger coolant tube, and got a bunch of parts in, including my new fuel filters:



the first is a 40 micron, the second is a 6 micron, for reference, a human hair is about 75 micron diameter.

I started working on the water pump suction hose, and think I have something that will work, but I need a couple more clamps, and because I've made a somewhat silly requirement of using T-bolt clamps and not worm clamps, it'll have to wait until monday to be buttoned up and pressure tested.



ericjon262 MSG #405, 04-13-2018 11:03 PM
      this project hasn't died, I recently PCS'd, and deployed, so it's been in storage, hopefully I'll get it back out in about 2-3 months.



ericjon262 MSG #406, 10-07-2018 07:44 PM
      I now have the car back in my possession. I think the car has a blown headgasket, not 100% sure, but a solid 85%. I'm planning to pick up a low miles stock 3500, and putting my heads cam and intake on/in it. There are a couple of reasons for this plan,

#1, oil control, the engine currently in the car has no windage tray, in the race to get the car put together before joining the navy 5+ years ago, when the windage tray interfered with the rods, it was left off. hind sight being 20-20, not a great plan, but not the end of the world.

#2, oil return, the oil return line from turbo is very poorly plumbed into the pan, and WAY to big, a new engine will come with a new pan that I can make a quick easy fix to clean the engine up a bit.

#3, bearings. after my fiasco 3 years ago with the oil line blowing apart, I'm worried the bottom end may have had bearing damage, no easy way to tell without pulling it apart, but I can say there was quite a bit of metal in the oil and filter when I changed it last.

I'm not too worried about durability, stock pistons and rods on all sorts of late model engines are pretty good compared to old school garbage, that being said, I do plan to possibly open the ring gaps a little bit if necessary, or maybe some trick rings for S+G's.



ericjon262 MSG #407, 10-07-2018 07:49 PM
      I now have the car back in my possession. I think the car has a blown headgasket, not 100% sure, but a solid 85%. I'm planning to pick up a low miles stock 3500, and putting my heads cam and intake on/in it. There are a couple of reasons for this plan,

#1, oil control, the engine currently in the car has no windage tray, in the race to get the car put together before joining the navy 5+ years ago, when the windage tray interfered with the rods, it was left off. hind sight being 20-20, not a great plan, but not the end of the world.

#2, oil return, the oil return line from turbo is very poorly plumbed into the pan, and WAY to big, a new engine will come with a new pan that I can make a quick easy fix to clean the engine up a bit.

#3, bearings. after my fiasco 3 years ago with the oil line blowing apart, I'm worried the bottom end may have had bearing damage, no easy way to tell without pulling it apart, but I can say there was quite a bit of metal in the oil and filter when I changed it last.

I'm not too worried about durability, stock pistons and rods on all sorts of late model engines are pretty good compared to old school garbage, that being said, I do plan to possibly open the ring gaps a little bit if necessary, or maybe some trick rings for S+G's.


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #408, 10-07-2018 11:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
I'm not too worried about durability, stock pistons and rods on all sorts of late model engines are pretty good compared to old school garbage


That isn't what you thought back when you did the full retard forged build, just saying...

However, I wouldn't want to do exactly the same (or too similar) build a second time - that would be boring / tedious.


ericjon262 MSG #409, 10-08-2018 06:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


That isn't what you thought back when you did the full retard forged build, just saying...

However, I wouldn't want to do exactly the same (or too similar) build a second time - that would be boring / tedious.


meh, it's easy to overthink things when you're young and stupid. but, if I keep the car after this is all said and done, it will get properly built and blueprinted engine.



ericjon262 MSG #410, 01-09-2019 02:22 AM
      Good news, the car is in the garage, I'm slowly cleaning it up and getting it and the garage ready for real work to begin, I have a few ideas floating around that I may play with, but the overall goal is to get the thing running and on the road before December 31...

ericjon262 MSG #411, 07-29-2019 09:21 PM
      some progress, lots of parts on order, and a short block is almost assembled.

I got the piston rings in, and on the pistons, and the pistons in their respective holes, the top rings are steel, and took way longer than the 2nd rings to gap, the second rings are a napier cut ring.



I painted the valve covers with some aluminum colored paint, hopefully the paint looks good for a longer time than the bare aluminum did.







I also came to the realization that I made a somewhat large mistake with this car fairly recently. when I pulled the intake manifold a few months ago, I noticed the plenum gasket wasn't crushed around one of the ports. I should have thought a bit harder about this and fixed it on the spot and tried running the engine again. in the past when it didn't want to play nice, it would only run if it was super rich, which makes sense if there's a huge air leak into the plenum causing 2 or 3 cylinders to be much leaner than the others, which are now crazy rich and not wanting to fire. this realization has triggered the decision to ditch my custom intake for now. I'm undecided as to whether I'll run a ported stock piece, or make a new custom manifold similar to what was there.

I also need to fix my front trans mount, I put that thing together very poorly, because I was in a rush to get the car together. I'm also going to redo my engine mount so that it bolts to a stock pan without potentially weakening it.

for now, I plan to throw the car together N/A, but try and carefully plan for adding a turbo after I can drive it again.







I started looking for a better way to incorporate the oil drain into the pan, you can see the old pan and drain below the engine in one of the pictures.

I'm thinking the best placement might actually be to go between the starter and the block, there's quite a bit of room and it gets the drain out of the way of the electrical connections on the back of the starter.

The plan would be to weld a piece of aluminum tubing to the pan, with a fitting above the starter to accept a hose. the tube would intersect the pan at approximately the same angle as my hand in the pictures.









I decided to splurge and get an MS3 Pro Ultimate and ditch the MS3x, I'm currently racking my brain trying to find the best place to mount it, I think I'm going to hack the back out of the console and mount it where the stock ECM went, but I'm still contemplating mounting it in the engine compartment near where the stock battery tray was, or the trunk.

I really wanted to run a pi dash, but I don't think I'll be able to, mainly because the Fiero dash won't fit a reasonable size display without enlarging it quite a bit, and I would rather not take on a project like that yet, so I might also pick up a microquirt and have it run the stock gauges via can bus.

one of the other goals of this teardown and rebuild, was to convert to DBW. I hated on DBW quite a bit when I started this swap years ago, but I like it more and more. especially because it opens a ton of doors for different modes of traction and launch control, I'd also bet that I could make a "valet mode" that limits throttle position.

unfortunately, I didn't realize that the MS3 Pro doesn't support DBW by itself and requires an add on controller. a guy in Finland came up with this:

https://www.dbwx2.com/

it's about $385 not including shipping.

https://shop.protoparts.fi/...rt?change_country=us

it appears to offer pretty good response. I've got a 75mm LS4 TB on the way from Fieroguru that I'll adapt to a manifold, either my custom one, or a one of the plenums I have sitting around the house. my Custom plenum needs work to be made right though, the welding shop who put it together for me warped the hell out of it, I had it machined "flat" and then none of the bolts lined up, so I'll probably ditch it and start over. another plus to DBW will be packaging. the throttle cable had to run over the top of the plenum, and the LS1 TB I have, has a huge 4" mouth on it, so it required special adapters to make the charge piping fit right.

I'm also trying to have a non-lift-off decklid again, I am both glad I cut the hinge boxes out, and with I hadn't. if I can find a new decklid that isn't butchered like mine is, I'll make a set of hinges like Fieroguru made for his car.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/085829.html

it'll be easier to access spark plugs, and I'll regain a functional trunk of sorts. in doing this, I will have to swap the intake manifold to point towards the transmission, but I think that will only help many of the other packaging problems I have, and make getting AC back way easier. it should also help the engine come onto boost sooner, by shortening the intake tract.

in other non engine related news, I ripped my intercooler reservoir out, I'm planning on making or buying something smaller, that will mount closer to the heat exchanger. I also plan to mount the pump all the way up there as well. I'll end up building a wood or sheet metal panel to fill the hole where the old tank went.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #412, 07-30-2019 12:02 AM
      While it seems like you're trying to simplify things e.g. by skipping the turbo install, you still have a lot of work to do!

Are your ring gaps and piston-bore clearances set up for the eventual turbo install?

What sort of placement/orientation do you foresee for the turbo? On my Fiero, the oil drain fitting on the oil pan worked better on the trunk side of the engine, so I am wondering how you are going to package this with the firewall side oil drain.


ericjon262 MSG #413, 07-30-2019 12:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

While it seems like you're trying to simplify things e.g. by skipping the turbo install, you still have a lot of work to do!

Are your ring gaps and piston-bore clearances set up for the eventual turbo install?

What sort of placement/orientation do you foresee for the turbo? On my Fiero, the oil drain fitting on the oil pan worked better on the trunk side of the engine, so I am wondering how you are going to package this with the firewall side oil drain.


I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm skipping the turbo install, just taking a much more well planned approach, Previously, I had an idea and said "that's perfect" now I understand I need to question things on a much higher level to ensure that I accomplish the goals of having a fun, reliable, powerful car, that I can enjoy.

Planning on the turbo being over the transaxle, similar to how it was, just closer to the engin, and more well executed. the rings are from total seal, the gaps are slightly larger than their up to 15 PSI spec, and slightly smaller than their 15-30 PSI spec.

from a fluid dynamics standpoint, the oil drain on the front of the engine is better, the motion of the rotating and reciprocating assemblies can provide a sort of scavenging effect to help pull the oil from the turbo, and into the bottom of the pan. whereas on the back side, oil could get sucked into the assemblies, and create additional windage losses, as well as aeration of the oil, which, among other things could cause lifter to collapse and limit airflow and restrict performance. if you have motor trend on demand (highly recommended) Hot Rod Engine Masters compared what happens to power with an overfilled pan. it makes a considerable difference, and the oil being flung into the crankcase d/t poor drain routing would most likely have a similar effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOmMDF8sNro



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #414, 07-30-2019 08:46 AM
      I hadn't considered the wind being pushed up vs. down depending on which side of the crankshaft you are. Interesting comment. I focused on just getting the drain line to go straight-ish and downhill.

One idea if you wanted to prevent the turbo return oil from being stirred up would be to return the oil below the oil level in the pan, with a separate vent line for the crankcase air (like how a home toilet/sink has a stack going to the roof).


ericjon262 MSG #415, 07-30-2019 01:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

I hadn't considered the wind being pushed up vs. down depending on which side of the crankshaft you are. Interesting comment. I focused on just getting the drain line to go straight-ish and downhill.


the way I see it, the drain will have to go from above the starter, to below it one way or another, it should end up being a pretty straight shot until it gets to the bellhousing, and then it will take a 45 nose down to the pan,

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
One idea if you wanted to prevent the turbo return oil from being stirred up would be to return the oil below the oil level in the pan, with a separate vent line for the crankcase air (like how a home toilet/sink has a stack going to the roof).


I had thought about this, and while it should work, I really don't want to end up with the oil not draining fast enough and leaking by the oil seals. I also don't like the idea of connections below the oil level in the pan, if it were to leak, it could have catastrophic results.

I have also considered running a scavenge pump, then the turbo can be mounted anywhere, and the oil return mounted plumbed anywhere as well.

notes for me:

3015/3013 106 ICL 110 LSA

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 07-30-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #416, 07-31-2019 12:36 PM
      Turbo drain above the static oil level works out way better. The aerated oil has much more cross sectional area to expand into the crankcase than if it has to pile up in the drain.

ericjon262 MSG #417, 07-31-2019 12:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Turbo drain above the static oil level works out way better. The aerated oil has much more cross sectional area to expand into the crankcase than if it has to pile up in the drain.


that was my thought too, because the oil leaving the turbo will be more aerated than the oil in the pan, it will be less dense, therefor want to float on top of the oil in the pan, with the oil entering below the level of the oil in the pan, it will have to generate a head to overcome this and flow into the pan.

Another consideration for putting the drain on the front of the pan, is that under forward acceleration, the oil will be pushed towards the back of the pan, towards the drain, possibly entering it, and the oil attempting to drain into the pan has to push against gravity and acceleration. on the flip side, the front of the pan will experience the same thing under braking, but, you're not typically very high in the revs while braking compared to acceleration, so oil flow is reduced. and less has to drain.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #418, 07-31-2019 01:13 PM
      Make sure it's above the pan level because regardless of it being aerated or not, it will back up into the tube if there is oil covering the outlet into the pan. I learned that lesson back in 1996 on my first Fiero turbo build. Make sure you are in the happy medium range for oil flow as well because a high oil flow through the turbo (from high pressure at the inlet) can potentially overrun the drain rate.

The drain on my last build was on the back side above the pan oil level with a less than optimum gravity drain height at about 3" height difference between the bung on the pan and the turbo outlet. I installed an electric pump as a bypass below the primary by adding a "T" fitting, but after installing a restrictor to scale back the free oil flow to the turbo, I never had a problem with oil backing up into the cartridge and exiting into the exhaust, even though after the elbow from the turbo drain the tube was almost level. I did use a 3/4" drain tube to maximize return area.


ericjon262 MSG #419, 07-31-2019 01:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

Make sure it's above the pan level because regardless of it being aerated or not, it will back up into the tube if there is oil covering the outlet into the pan. I learned that lesson back in 1996 on my first Fiero turbo build. Make sure you are in the happy medium range for oil flow as well because a high oil flow through the turbo (from high pressure at the inlet) can potentially overrun the drain rate.

The drain on my last build was on the back side above the pan oil level with a less than optimum gravity drain height at about 3" height difference between the bung on the pan and the turbo outlet. I installed an electric pump as a bypass below the primary by adding a "T" fitting, but after installing a restrictor to scale back the free oil flow to the turbo, I never had a problem with oil backing up into the cartridge and exiting into the exhaust, even though after the elbow from the turbo drain the tube was almost level. I did use a 3/4" drain tube to maximize return area.



a 3/4 inch line would be tight where I want to put it, it would have to be squished a bit to fit, I'll probably end up doing 5/8". that being said, from the turbo to the bellhousing will be a downangle, and the bellhousing to the pan will be damn near vertical straight down. I don't think I will have problems, even with 5/8"



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #420, 07-31-2019 02:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
a 3/4 inch line would be tight where I want to put it, it would have to be squished a bit to fit, I'll probably end up doing 5/8". that being said, from the turbo to the bellhousing will be a downangle, and the bellhousing to the pan will be damn near vertical straight down. I don't think I will have problems, even with 5/8"


As long as the outlet is clear you will not have a problem. When I had the oil backup incident the turbo was sitting over the bellousing of an automatic, draining to the front side of the pan and even at that height, the oil still backed up to the turbo as the revs climbed with the drain fitting just below the oil level of the pan. Make sure you have good crank case ventilation also, because combustion gasses can also force oil past the exhaust seal.


La fiera MSG #421, 07-31-2019 02:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

3015/3013 106 ICL 110 LSA



110 LSA for a turbo cam is a bit tight. How big is the turbo?


ericjon262 MSG #422, 07-31-2019 03:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


110 LSA for a turbo cam is a bit tight. How big is the turbo?


that depends on the lobes. turbo size is in deliberation still.



La fiera MSG #423, 07-31-2019 10:41 PM
      On the lobes, ah!

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #424, 07-31-2019 10:51 PM
      In general, I thought that if the intake-to-exhaust pressure ratio was the same on a turbo engine as on a naturally aspirated engine, then an NA cam with overlap to help scavenging would work the same as usual.

I think that to measure this, one would build the engine (with whatever camshaft is available), measure the intake and exhaust pressures, and then feed that information to the camshaft supplier (or other knowledgeable person), who could then specify the camshaft.

For my project, I skipped the pressure measurement step, as I didn't want project scope/budget/schedule to explode beyond "reasonable" limits. Going blindly, with whatever little information I could provide, my camshaft supplier specified me a camshaft with 114° LSA.

I think that when the intake and exhaust opening events are separated, the intake-to-exhaust pressure ratio becomes less important for the function of the engine, as the two phases are more "decoupled". Wide LSA is perhaps the conservative project management approach; the engine is likely to work well regardless of the intake/exhaust pressures. However, the power will be moderate.

I view the NA-style high-overlap cam as being the gambler's choice. If you get the right intake-to-exhaust pressure ratio, then you can get good scavenging (and hence power gains) as with NA builds. However, if you have a bunch of overlap, and more exhaust pressure than you expected, all that exhaust gas will blow into the cylinder and force fresh air/fuel mixture back into the intake.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 07-31-2019).]

ericjon262 MSG #425, 08-02-2019 02:42 AM
      drunk me ordered the throttle controller the other night, I'd expect it here sometime next week.

in other news, if I want AC again, I'll have to re work my engine mounts



I checked piston to valve clearance,



it was a little tight for my liking, about .060", I would prefer at least .1", so I decided to get a bit sloppy...











while my work was sloppy, I put the effort into making it pretty good, I ended up with 6 almost identical reliefs which should provide plenty of clearance.



I torqued the heads down in 7 passes, starting at 20 ft lbs, and then going up in 10 lb increments up to 80 ft lbs. I then checked torque at 80 ft lbs on each stud 3 times before going to bed. the next morning, I did 2 more passes at 80 ft lbs. no stud movement.

the gen IV 60v6 uses a timing chain tensioner instead of a damper, it bolts onto the earlier engines, so I decided to install one, along with a cryo treated timing set from WOT-Tech. the wire pin is to keep the tension shoe off of the chain during install, it was removed after this picture.





then I installed the timing cover and commenced measuring pushrods. all of the exhaust pushrods measured in between 6.06" and 6.08" at zero lash, and the intakes all measured between 5.63" and 5.64" at zero lash, unfortunately, I can't find a lifter preload spec anywhere... I have seen a few sources that say LS V8's are .040-.050, and others that say .060-.080", and 3800's like .030(I assume the difference is block and head material) but nothing for a 60v6, which has smaller lifters, shorter pushrods, canted valves.and mixed materials for the heads/block.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #426, 08-02-2019 01:02 PM
      I hope you cleaned up the abrasive residue well from inside the engine; from what I read, people kill rebuilt engines with Scotchbrite residue getting into bearings and gouging them.

As far as the lifters go, I think that would be a lifter manufacturer spec, not an engine spec. For example, if you purchased a brand X aftermarket lifter that was constructed differently (i.e. not the same plunger travel) than the stock GM lifter, the GM preload spec would no longer apply. My valve lifters came with a preload spec in the box.

If I had zero data, I'd fully compress the plunger, measure the total plunger travel, and then set up the engine so the plungers are placed at mid-travel.

You're concerned about thermal expansion and stuff, but the raison d'être for hydraulic lifters is that they compensate for that during running. Do you think that if you start with the plunger in the middle, that you may run out of compensation in one direction?


ericjon262 MSG #427, 08-09-2019 09:52 PM
      well, I had a short stint getting a ton of work done, but now I'm stuck waiting on parts again... the DBW controller still isn't here, and I don't want to mount the MS3 until I have the controller, because if I can mount them in the same place I want to. of course, this means I also haven't started wiring this mess up yet...

I also discovered today that my alternator bracket and the rivet holding the shims of my cometic head gasket want to occupy the same space, which wasn't a development I expected. I either need to trim the rivet off, or see if I can clearance the bracket. I was contemplating re working the bracket but if I don't have to I would rather not yet.

I did take the plunge and punched a hole in the oil pan for the drainback, I ordered 3/4" tubing to use for the actual pipe going into the pan, it will have to be flattened slightly to clear the starter and the block, but I think it should work fine. it appeared that 5/8" would need to be flattened as well, so I decided it would be better to use the 3/4 and have max flow still.

I used a steel tube I had laying around for a mock up.



the tube will drain just underneath the windage tray.



I then learned how to not braze aluminum... First, I tried using a map gas torch by itself, but it doesn't have a large enough flame to overcome the mass of the pan wicking heat away from the joint... so I got out the torch I made for the casting furnace, and added a bit more heat, and the braze began to take, but, I put a little too much heat in, and actually began melting the pan...dammit! new pan is on the way, hopefully I can make it happen before I go back to sea... I did learn what i now need to do though, use the big torch to provide a pre heat, and get the whole pan nice and hot, then use the map gas to apply the braze. It should work well.



I drew up a new TB flange and painted the new TB, an LS4 unit I purchased from Fieroguru.





This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.





I was going to braze some bungs onto my fuel rail to make it a parallel flow return style rail. I began drilling the rail for the new fittings, not realizing the rail was slightly crooked, about halfway through it somehow started walking and made a nasty looking hole for the new fitting. i'm going to the pick a part tomorrow to try and pick up another one, and maybe a set of injectors or two to decap.

I ordered new lifters, and pushrods, both of which showed up this afternoon, hopefully I'll have the top end buttoned up here in the morning, unfortunately, I am waiting on a bunch of other parts still, the throttle body flange is done, and in the mail, along with the materials to make the new intake, and since I learned how not to braze aluminum on the old oil pan, I think the intake should be a cake walk, or at least I hope it is.


ericjon262 MSG #428, 08-12-2019 11:48 PM
      take 2 on the oil pan...

started by flaring the aluminum tube



Made a hole



Applied heat evenly across the whole pan inside and out there must have been some weird interference with the thermal camera, the whole thing was about the same temp, but from some angles, it didn't look it at all.







I guess the anodizing doesn't like getting hot...



it fits! it's got about 1/16"-1/8" clearance to the starter motor, which I think should be more than adequate.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #429, 08-13-2019 07:25 AM
      Awesome!

The "valleys" are going to look brighter because that geometry is retro-reflective.


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #430, 08-13-2019 12:30 PM
      Does this mean that the thermal cameras only measure the intensity of one particular color of light?

If the camera measured a few colors, and had an idea of the spectrum, then the temperature reading would be independent of intensity.


ericjon262 MSG #431, 08-13-2019 09:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Does this mean that the thermal cameras only measure the intensity of one particular color of light?

If the camera measured a few colors, and had an idea of the spectrum, then the temperature reading would be independent of intensity.


I don't know, it's not really something I have ever given any real thought to.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #432, 08-14-2019 07:38 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Does this mean that the thermal cameras only measure the intensity of one particular color of light?

If the camera measured a few colors, and had an idea of the spectrum, then the temperature reading would be independent of intensity.


I think it's looking at total incident energy within a range of wavelengths. Under ideal conditions that variable would be monotonic with temperature, but would also be dependent on view factor among other variables.

I've worked with a very experienced engineer who uses a thermal camera to observe the first power-on of any new circuit board design. He says he's seen his own reflection on the boards and has to take steps to make sure that reflections don't obscure the data.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-14-2019).]

ericjon262 MSG #433, 08-21-2019 01:24 AM
      Stainless headers didn't get my order for the flanges somehow... oh well, I'll get the flanges on order and make this happen. as of now, the only parts I need to make the new turbo manifolds are the missing flanges, filler material, and a purge kit or solar flux.

the TB flange I drew up fits great, the plan is to make a new intake similar to my old one, this time though, making sure it doesn't end up warped. I have a few tricks up my sleeve for that, more to come later.



Unfortunately, I won't be able to make any real progress on the car for at least the next month and a half, but probably more like 3 months, gotta earn my Submarine pay...



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #434, 08-21-2019 06:27 PM
      I was reading that WW2-era submarines kept a lathe on board for doing maintenance / repairs... that could be good for making some parts for the car project.

Do submariners have free time while underway? Maybe you could draw plans / wiring diagrams...

(I am not a sailor, so I don't know how it is)



ericjon262 MSG #435, 10-21-2019 12:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I was reading that WW2-era submarines kept a lathe on board for doing maintenance / repairs... that could be good for making some parts for the car project.

Do submariners have free time while underway? Maybe you could draw plans / wiring diagrams...

(I am not a sailor, so I don't know how it is)


we have one on board, but it's only there for emergency usage. I don't get much free time, some people do, but mostly the guys in the forward compartments. engineering department doesn't usually get that lucky.

I have most of the plans in my head still, I should probably write them down. as well as get the wiring diagrams figured out. most of it should be straightforward.

I planned on starting the exhaust started, but the flanges I have are a little bit too far off, I'm going to draw something up and have a someone local to me cut new flanges on a CNC table, hopefully they will be closer than what I currently have. I'm still planning on weld el's with a nice long taper to from the port diameter to a 2" discharge.

with my current work schedule I probably won't meet my goal of driving by the end of the year, but hopefully I can at least get the engine back in the car.




ericjon262 MSG #436, 10-27-2019 12:56 AM
      I got started on a new set of turbo manifolds.





the forward most ports will use 90* bends. and the downstream ports will use 45*, contoured to the pipe. the main log is tapered from the 1.5" 90*, to a 2" discharge at the end. I plan to use a V-band at each discharge, and I might weld in EGT bungs, but probably not. the taper is accomplished by cutting a long V down the length of a straight piece of tube, and then clamping the wide end to reduce the diameter. the whole manifold is schedule 10, 304 stainless.

the flanges pictured won't be used though, they don't quite fitup as well as I hoped they would, and will end up being too much work to make fit, and seeing as I've tried the only two off the shelf parts, it's time to get a little more personal...

I really didn't want to draw my own, as I knew it would be a tedious process, and it was, because the port is in no dimension uniform.





I have a few more tweaks to make before it's done, but there's a guy local to me with a plasma table who has offered to cut them for me.


ericjon262 MSG #437, 10-27-2019 04:06 AM
      I re-drew the header flange from square one, the only dimension in question at this point, is the distance between the port, unfortunately, I don't have a accurate instrument that large, but they should be very close. the port outline is looks to be damn near perfect at this point, and I should no longer have any interference issues with the schedule 10 pipe either.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #438, 10-27-2019 08:55 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I re-drew the header flange from square one, the only dimension in question at this point, is the distance between the port, unfortunately, I don't have a accurate instrument that large, but they should be very close.



Why wouldn't you use three separate flanges; then you wouldn't need accurate measurements of the distance between the ports. You could bolt the flanges on a head, and weld everything up. When I followed this procedure, I used counter-sunk head screws, to center the holes in the flanges with the screw thread centerlines.

What is the reasoning to having one large piece with the strip of metal connecting the ports?


ericjon262 MSG #439, 10-27-2019 11:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Why wouldn't you use three separate flanges; then you wouldn't need accurate measurements of the distance between the ports. You could bolt the flanges on a head, and weld everything up. When I followed this procedure, I used counter-sunk head screws, to center the holes in the flanges with the screw thread centerlines.

What is the reasoning to having one large piece with the strip of metal connecting the ports?


I could, it's not uncommon in the V8 world, I would prefer them joined because then I don't have to have them bolted to the head to verify fitup of parts. I acquired a very large vernier caliper today that I am going to use to check the measurements, then I'll either have a flange cut out of sheet metal to verify, or print it out on paper and cut it out.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #440, 10-28-2019 11:49 AM
      Another possible advantage of the metal connecting strip occurred to me.

As the log manifold heats up (I'm really talking about the tapered slit tube), it will grow lengthwise. The cylinder head on the other hand, having a much smaller temperature rise, will maintain a relatively constant length.

The length mismatch that will occur between the parts may be resolved by consequences such as shearing the bolts, or sliding on the gaskets.

If your log manifold has a connecting strip that remains relatively cool, it will force the distance between the ports to remain more constant.
However, there will be more stress within the manifold itself.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 10-28-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #441, 10-28-2019 12:01 PM
      The length of the runners has *MUCH* more impact on that phenomenon.

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #442, 10-28-2019 06:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The length of the runners has *MUCH* more impact on that phenomenon.


Yes, flexibility drastically increases with runner length. But since Eric showed us a picture of pieces of metal already starting to look like a short-runner log manifold, it looked like that aspect of the design was already "frozen", so I didn't mention it.

The desire for flexibility is what led me towards the sledgehammer approach whereby I installed bellows between the ports of my stock 2.8 log manifolds.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 10-28-2019).]

ericjon262 MSG #443, 10-28-2019 08:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
Another possible advantage of the metal connecting strip occurred to me.

As the log manifold heats up (I'm really talking about the tapered slit tube), it will grow lengthwise. The cylinder head on the other hand, having a much smaller temperature rise, will maintain a relatively constant length.

The length mismatch that will occur between the parts may be resolved by consequences such as shearing the bolts, or sliding on the gaskets.

If your log manifold has a connecting strip that remains relatively cool, it will force the distance between the ports to remain more constant.
However, there will be more stress within the manifold itself.


sliding on the gaskets is ok to some degree, shearing bolts is not, one of the details I had not yet discussed here, was that I intended to have to bolt holes at the center port round, and the bolt holes at the outer port slightly slotted lengthwise to alleviate some of the expansion stress.

My biggest concern, is that with the short runner length and long log, is that crack may form at the junction between the flange and the runner.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The length of the runners has *MUCH* more impact on that phenomenon.


Agreed, because the stress is no longer applied in whole to the flange, it is now applied across both the runners, and the flange.

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
Yes, flexibility drastically increases with runner length. But since Eric showed us a picture of pieces of metal already starting to look like a short-runner log manifold, it looked like that aspect of the design was already "frozen", so I didn't mention it.

The desire for flexibility is what led me towards the sledgehammer approach whereby I installed bellows between the ports of my stock 2.8 log manifolds.


I have yet to calculate the difference in expansion between the two parts, but I think a bellows between the ports may be way overkill. it's also a huge efficiency killer, those bellows are a huge amount of surface area, having more than one pre-turbo is a band-aid for bad engineering IMO.

I have enough material to lengthen the runners, but I want to keep them as tight to the head as I can, it will make maintenance easier, and improve overall efficiency.



ericjon262 MSG #444, 10-28-2019 10:09 PM
      https://www.engineeringtool...ion-pipes-d_283.html

according to this, over about 12"(approximate length of the log) of pipe, and a temperature difference of around 1300F from installed state to what is probably well over max operating temperature yields an expansion of about 0.2" similar math for the head, assuming 142F rise (due to coolant) results in an expansion of 0.022", a difference in expansion of .178"

using the difference in temperature for the head, and the expansion of the stainless gives us an expansion of.019 for the flange, a difference of .003 between the head and flange, if I were a betting man, I would say that the flange is probably slightly hotter than the head, due to the lower thermal conductivity of stainless compared to aluminum, and the lack of cooling medium.

knowing this, across the entire head, I have a difference of about .18" between the log and the flange. that I need to make up. but the force on the runners will be applied bidirectionally, with about .126" of expansion between the ports further apart, and about .054 between the ports close together.

All of this is assuming steady state temperature, I imagine transient dT's would be lower.

.156" pipe
.0195" head
.0167" flange
.098" wide
.042" narrow

on the front bank, most of the expansion can be taken up by the bend from the first port. as it should be relatively free to expand towards front passenger side of the engine compartment, on the rear bank, that expansion has to be taken between the ports, as both ports will discharge at almost right angles to the pipe. short of building a 3-1 header style manifold, I don't think there's much I can do there, slotting the boltholes at the ends of the flange would allow the pipe to move the flange to a small degree, but it will also be forced counter to that by it's lesser expansion, and would have to also fight the force applied by the tension of the bolts also resisting flange movement. the angular displacement between the flange and the pipe based on these measurements is approximately 4.1-5.2 degrees.

Edit to add, I may re-do the math later with a higher flange temperature to see how those changes affect, this math currently assumes flange temperature is very close to head temperature, looking at the actual thermal conductivity of stainless and cast aluminum, I think it's safe to say the flange would be significantly hotter, which would cause an increase in shear load on the bolts, as well as reduced displacement between the flange and log.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 10-29-2019).]

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #445, 10-29-2019 09:46 PM
      Do note that the way you're calculating thermal growth of the log assumes that the manifold is free to grow "as the part wants".

The log probably won't grow as much as predicted by the delta_temp*expansion_coefficient*initial_length formula, because the runners (which are attached to the massive stiff head) will force the log to remain shorter than it would otherwise be if left unrestrained.

Actually, the stress in the metal arises because the log is being "compressed shorter".

If you wanted to evaluate the risk of the metal cracking, the end-goal of this math/calculations could to estimate the stress in the metal at different key points in the manifold.

********************************************************************************

Here's an idea I have for an rough stress test that requires minimal tools/equipment:

1. After fabrication, cut away the connecting strip from the flange.
2. Place the completed manifold vertically in a hydraulic press.
3. Squish the two ends ports towards each other by .150", or whatever number you feel is representative of the length mismatch in service.
4. Check if the manifold has been plastically deformed. Before/after measurements may be helpful.

If you've plastically deformed your manifold, well at least you did it on the bench, rather than on the car which may entail dropping the cradle and all that...


ericjon262 MSG #446, 10-29-2019 10:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Do note that the way you're calculating thermal growth of the log assumes that the manifold is free to grow "as the part wants".

The log probably won't grow as much as predicted by the delta_temp*expansion_coefficient*initial_length formula, because the runners (which are attached to the massive stiff head) will force the log to remain shorter than it would otherwise be if left unrestrained.

Actually, the stress in the metal arises because the log is being "compressed shorter".

If you wanted to evaluate the risk of the metal cracking, the end-goal of this math/calculations could to estimate the stress in the metal at different key points in the manifold.


which is why I also calculated the expansion of the head, in the operating temperatures the components will see, the thermal expansion of the aluminum head is actually higher than that of the stainless flange.


 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
Here's an idea I have for an rough stress test that requires minimal tools/equipment:

1. After fabrication, cut away the connecting strip from the flange.
2. Place the completed manifold vertically in a hydraulic press.
3. Squish the two ends ports towards each other by .150", or whatever number you feel is representative of the length mismatch in service.
4. Check if the manifold has been plastically deformed. Before/after measurements may be helpful.

If you've plastically deformed your manifold, well at least you did it on the bench, rather than on the car which may entail dropping the cradle and all that...


this test would be in no way representative of actual operating conditions, the results of said test wouldn't really tell me much.

I did realize a mistake in my math I split the length for the pipe, but not the flange, resulting in larger than actual divergence. I also re-did the math for for a higher flange temperature


0.0195" head

0.0167" flange
0.01169"  wide
0.00501" narrow

0.156" pipe
0.098" wide
0.042" narrow


0.071" flange hot
0.0497" wide
0.0213" narrow

difference warm
0.0864 wide
0.0369 narrow

divergence warm
3.62 degrees wide
1.57 degrees narrow

difference hot
0.0483" wide
0.0217" narrow

divergence hot
2.049 degrees wide
0.92 degrees narrow

I feel like hot stainless should be able to handle that much without problem, I also plan on having the manifolds coated which help thermally as well.



ericjon262 MSG #447, 11-01-2019 09:10 PM
     

first ever attempts at welding stainless steel. I can tell already I need lots of practice. I think my travel speed is too slow, and I probably should have spent more time prepping the surfaces, I'm planning on picking up some stainless wire wheels tomorrow, and I'll use them to brush the weld areas, and then I'll wipe them, as well as the filler, with acetone prior to welding. I'm also going to use solarflux on the back of the weld to prevent pickling the backsides.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #448, 11-01-2019 10:20 PM
      Is that TIG?

ericjon262 MSG #449, 11-01-2019 11:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Is that TIG?


yes, but very poorly executed. I think my current was a bit high, and my travel speed a bit low. I've done a couple more runs, and they look a little better, but I still need more practice.



ericjon262 MSG #450, 11-03-2019 01:32 PM
      a little less stickout, a litttle more prep, a little more speed, and a little less current netted this:



much better, but I still need more practice.


ericjon262 MSG #451, 11-07-2019 12:55 AM
      Practice helps, alot!



old on the left, new on the right. still a bit hot, but way better!



One log and runner are assembled, unfortunately, I can't really make any more progress until I get the new flanges made. tomorrow, when I get off work I plan to triple check all of my measurements and find someone to cut them ASAP. my fabrication plan is to tack weld the 45's to the flange, and then set the log on top and trim both until I have a proper fit, then weld everything up.



ericjon262 MSG #452, 11-11-2019 09:01 PM
      I've spent the past few days hammering out the flange for the new turbo manifold, I'm pretty sure I've got it spot on, now. I've had it 3d printed twice, and I think I'm already approaching the point of diminishing returns.



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The final step before the laser will be a thin sheet metal "flange", as my friend's 3D printer wasn't exactly accurate for the hole sizes. once it's "proved", I'll have them cut in at lead 3/8" 304 SS and get hot on finishing them up.


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #453, 11-12-2019 12:34 PM
      How are you going to change from D-shaped to round?

ericjon262 MSG #454, 11-12-2019 07:53 PM
      I'll carefully form the pipe to the port. a few tack welds, a little heat, and some caressing. and it'll be a nice transition.

ericjon262 MSG #455, 11-24-2019 01:00 AM
      Not much going on ATM, I drew up this adapter to adapt the 09 impala gas pedal to the Fiero, I'll have it 3D printed to test fit, and then make adjustments from there. once it's "done" I'll have it cut out of metal.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #456, 11-24-2019 12:21 PM
      A word of warning in regards to your oil return location in the side of the pan, it looks like it's pretty close to the location of the oil pickup in the bottom of the pan. When I had the water return line for my liquid/air intercooler placed in close proximity to the small bilge pump pickup area located in the water tank, the water dropping into the tank near it created bubbles that caused cavitation which was easy to to tell by the way the pump sounded, so you may need to add a small baffle near the outlet to direct the return oil away from pickup if it's close. My pan return points were always 90 deg and about mid pan, that nice efficient angle you have will produce a higher velocity in the return flow.

You also don't want the return point below the oil level. I made that mistake on my first turbo Fiero and the oil backed all the way up to the turbo because of the reduced flow rate going into the pan from being below the oil level, as the rpm picked up.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-24-2019).]

ericjon262 MSG #457, 11-24-2019 12:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

A word of warning in regards to your oil return location in the side of the pan, it looks like it's pretty close to the location of the oil pickup in the bottom of the pan. When I had the water return line for my liquid/air intercooler placed in close proximity to the small bilge pump pickup area located in the water tank, the water dropping into the tank near it created bubbles that caused cavitation which was easy to to tell by the way the pump sounded, so you may need to add a small baffle near the outlet to direct the return oil away from pickup if it's close. My pan return points were always 90 deg and about mid pan, that nice efficient angle you have will produce a higher velocity in the return flow.

You also don't want the return point below the oil level. I made that mistake on my first turbo Fiero and the oil backed all the way up to the turbo because of the reduced flow rate going into the pan from being below the oil level, as the rpm picked up.




That's a good point that I hadn't given alot of thought to. at this point, it's all put together already, so I'll log oil pressure and see how it looks and see if there are oscillations or other symptoms of cavitation.that being said, I'm not sure it's that much of a concern, all of the oil gets aerated leaving the main, cam, and rod bearings, and then just dumps into the oil on it's own. I'd really love to dry sump the engine, but that takes a bit more work than I want to do ATM.


My oil drain is higher than the standard pan fill.



ericjon262 MSG #458, 11-24-2019 01:56 PM
      I did a bit more practice running beads last night, I think I'm starting to get the hang of it, I think one of my biggest problems with producing nice beads earlier, was that the torch was too far from the material, resulting in the torch melting the filler, not the puddle, I tightened the gap, and was more careful about filler addition, and the result was the top bead in this picture:



I did several like it, and think that I'm getting to the point where I can observe the problems or poor technique better, and make corrections on the fly. I think all this stainless practice will make a huge difference in all of my weld quality, not just stainless. it seems some of the other materials are more forgiving they're appearance doesn't change as much with poor technique, whereas stainless changes alot!



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #459, 11-24-2019 03:42 PM
      For my future turbo manifolds, I'm going to tack weld them up and then heat the assembly up in the oven to about 375 F and then complete the welds. I have stainles sch 40 weld els also for the first time and I like the looks of it.

As for the oil return, it's the splashing on the surface upon entry that creates large bubbles below the surface instead of aeration that caused the problem I had. In your case however, it looks like your return point might be a little below the oil level so you may only need to be concerned about the possibility of oil backing up in the drain. As the rpm climbs the return oil flow is going to pick up a good bit. Just watch it closely.


ericjon262 MSG #460, 11-26-2019 02:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

For my future turbo manifolds, I'm going to tack weld them up and then heat the assembly up in the oven to about 375 F and then complete the welds. I have stainles sch 40 weld els also for the first time and I like the looks of it.

As for the oil return, it's the splashing on the surface upon entry that creates large bubbles below the surface instead of aeration that caused the problem I had. In your case however, it looks like your return point might be a little below the oil level so you may only need to be concerned about the possibility of oil backing up in the drain. As the rpm climbs the return oil flow is going to pick up a good bit. Just watch it closely.


My weld el's are SCH 10, I didn't see a real benefit to going as thick as 40.

The high approach angle make it look like so, but in reality, the drain enters the pan just below the windage tray, I think this space is almost ideal, I am unsure of the oil volume exiting the turbo, and how much concern it should be, but I'd bet that it doesn't discharge with enough velocity to impinge the surface of the oil in the pan with enough force to be of concern. that being said, I do intend to log oil pressure with the MS3, and see exactly what's happening, if I need to further improve oil control, I have a few ideas that I'll explore,

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 11-26-2019).]

La fiera MSG #461, 11-26-2019 06:11 PM
      That is some neat you are doing!! Keep it up and I can't wait to your project come alive!!! Keep pounding!!

Rei


ericjon262 MSG #462, 11-28-2019 01:07 PM
      Thanks, it's been a ton of work, with lots more to go.

I did a little junkyard digging today and scored a couple of small wins.

a new UIM and a/c compressor.

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and a few more 3500 injectors, I'm going to decap them and send them to Derr Injector services for cleaning and flow testing, I have 16 of them, so I'll have them flowed and I'll take the best 6 matching and use them.

I also did a little work on the "coolant tree". Normally there's a pipe that goes over the valve cover to the back side of the engine to act as a return path from the heater core. I decided that I am going to plumb my heater return into the passenger side coolant tube running under the car, and eliminate one of the pipes under the car. it is necessary to keep the tree in place though, because it receives the recirculation line to prevent dead heading the water pump.

I started by removing the pipe

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then welded it up and painted it.

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The welds are a little nasty, I think there was still some antifreeze residue in there that kept trying to gas off.

I cut the neck out of the new intake, and have begun fitting up the new one, it's a bit bigger, and will better accommodate my 76mm LS4 throttle.

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I still need to finish it up, but it's coming along nicely.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #463, 11-28-2019 07:37 PM
      Probably heating with a torch, or a bake in your kitchen oven would have allowed any contamination to outgas.

ericjon262 MSG #464, 11-28-2019 08:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Probably heating with a torch, or a bake in your kitchen oven would have allowed any contamination to outgas.


not sure it would have gotten hot enough, at this point, I'm not too concerned, the welds are ugly, but they'll hold, and its in a spot that will never be seen. if I redo it, I'll take a few added precautions to ensure the parts are triple clean beforehand, but I don't think I'll end up doing it.

I read on here somewhere there was a pulley and belt tensioner catalog with pictures, anyone know where to find it?


ericjon262 MSG #465, 11-30-2019 12:06 AM
      this is my current alternator and tensioner bracket. it uses an LT1 F-body tensioner, and an Astro van alternator. it also requires an idler at the top bolt hole the holds the bracket to the head. I made it a few years ago, it's a bit bulky, and holds the alternator pretty far from the block, it works, but I'm not too happy with the execution, the welds are **** ...

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I'd prefer the alternator hug the block, but then I have to find a new tensioner. the one pictured appeared to be the ticket, until I started lining the belt up and realized it would need an additional idler to work, and there isn't really room.

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I found a fairly compact tensioner, that pulls the opposite direction. it has a ribbed pulley that I swapped for a smooth pulley, I'm going to make a mount to hold it in between the a/c compressor and the block, the mount will bolt in using the A/C compressor bolts, which acutally works out well, the A/C compressor requires a spacer between itself and the block, as the original application for the engine had an anti rotation mount sandwiched there, so now the space will be used for something.

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mounting the tensioner there will also eliminate an idler pulley as well, which did require the mount boss on the timing cover to be ground off.

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I'm done for tonight, but I hope to have this mostly done tomorrow as long as it's above freezing...


ericjon262 MSG #466, 11-30-2019 02:21 AM
      so... I lied I wasn't done...

I did a little CAD(Cardboard Aided Design) work:

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then to the plasma and drill press:

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and now I have a finished mounting flange for the tensioner

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I need to smooth it out a bit, but I think it turned out pretty good, I'm planning to brace it in three places to ensure a solid foundation.


ericjon262 MSG #467, 11-30-2019 11:51 PM
      I tacked it together about 10 times, before finally settling on this:

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the belt will be routed as such, maintaining the tensioner on the slack side of the belt. with the tensioner fully retracted, the belt still has clearance, between the tensioner and waterpump.

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I used the stock engine lift bracket as a guide, and cut the foundation for the alternator mount to match the shape, except extended lower so that the alternator will have something to mount to.

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My goal is to tuck the alternator as close to the block as possible, the back is going to get kinda close to the exhaust, so I'm going to make a thin heat shield to protect it as best as possible.

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what I have left, I need to add gussets to the tensioner bracket, I dont' see any flex as is right now, but I don't want to revisit it later because I got lazy. and obviously, I need to mount the alternator still, and the last thing, find a belt, I hope that goes easier than last time... lol.


ericjon262 MSG #468, 12-01-2019 10:31 PM
      belt tensioner bracket is gusseted, I need to clean it up and paint it, but otherwise it's done.

a quick go with the plasma cutter and some tack welds got me a kinda functional bracket.



it needed significant bracing, as well as something for the bolts to tighten into, so I heated up some 2" flat stock, and bent it to approximately match the contour of the alternator case. I also notched it so it would nest into the offset parts of the bracket.



Then I put a small spacer between the alternator and the new back brace, and welded it to the bracket. I should have cleaned the material better before welding, but I think it should hold fine.



I then put the whole assembly back on the engine and verified the belt alignment, as well as gave it a trial fit to see how everything will look. in this picture, the belt is bypassing the crank pulley to give it enough length to go around the alternator, water pump, and tensioner. I'm considering adding an idler pulley at the mounting bolt for the alternator, to increase the belt wrap around the alternator pulley. at this point, all that is left for the alternator bracket is the above mentioned idler, the mounting ears on the back of the brace, the gussets for the brace, and cleanup/paint.



ericjon262 MSG #469, 12-02-2019 12:42 AM
      quick tip, if you need to add an idler and don't have a boss for one, a 15mm hex head, like found on most M10x1.5 bolts, fits nice and snug inside the bearing of a pulley, is the the best way? no, will it work? yes.

Here is the proposed idler arrangement. it would be attached by a threaded rod going all the way through to the back of the alternator, a boss to hold the pulley on top of the bracket, and then a nut to tighten the whole assembly.

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much more wrap.




ericjon262 MSG #470, 12-02-2019 02:13 AM
      but using the tensioner mount on the timing cover is way less work....

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ericjon262 MSG #471, 12-02-2019 10:29 PM
      a bit of trading with belts and pulleys ended with this:



I think I have a winner. I liked the belt routing better with the the idler on the bracket, as it netted quite a bit more wrap on the alternator. the problem was the belt got really close to itself, and belt stretching would only make the problem worse, so I went with the timing cover idler.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #472, 12-03-2019 07:32 AM
      Have you looked at the relationship of the alternator and the axle?

ericjon262 MSG #473, 12-03-2019 08:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Have you looked at the relationship of the alternator and the axle?


I have, and it is a factor that I am fairly confident I won't have to worry about, the alternator is in more or less the stock fiero location, and above the oil pan rail, the output of the transaxle is below the oil pan rail. the only way to know for sure is to mock it up on the cradle and cycle the suspension through it's range of motion. worst case scenario, I still have my old bracket, I can still use it, and it definitely clears.



ericjon262 MSG #474, 12-08-2019 04:40 AM
      some fun, some not fun.

lots of progress on the new front plate, it took two takes, the first, take, I made it too tall, and without enough material to notch it for the axle to pass through. take two, I made the entire mount much taller with a large sweeping notch to clear the axle. I also made a plate that bolts to the oil pan to help stiffen the mount

here was the first go.



and here is the second I intentionally made it way wider than it needs to be so I can trim it back to fit the cradle.



and here is the brace that bolts to the oil pan, again, with lots of extra material so it can be trimmed back.



I also spent about an hour swapping all 24 lifter springs in my stock replacement springs for springs out of a set of LS7 springs, is the work worth it? not sure, the LS7's rev way higher than a stock 3500, and many of the SBC guys rave about the LS7 lifters in their gen 1 SBC's, so hopefully they're worth something. I have the lifters soaking in oil right now, tomorrow morning I am going to drop them in, and get the lower intake, and valve covers on for good.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #475, 12-08-2019 08:48 AM
      What is that huge front plate for?

Is it going to be a giant engine mount, wide enough so that a separate dogbone is not needed?


ericjon262 MSG #476, 12-08-2019 11:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

What is that huge front plate for?

Is it going to be a giant engine mount, wide enough so that a separate dogbone is not needed?


yes, that's the plan. each end will use leaf spring bushings to provide cushioning.



ericjon262 MSG #477, 12-08-2019 08:17 PM
      a little bit of today's progress, I decided to take a break from the mounts.

all of the lifters are installs, and the retainers, and the pushrods and rockers.



The heater pipe taps off of the intake manifold near the thermostat, and goes up and over the valve covers like so:



I didn't really care for this layout, it obstructs access to the valve cover, and is kinda ugly, so I decided I could do better. I got started by cutting it up, and then I welded it back together in a manner I like better.



The pipe will run straight under the head, and pop out just below the alternator bracket, under the belt. this will end up much more compact than what I had before, and look much cleaner, I would have it finished tonight, if I hadn't run out of material...


ericjon262 MSG #478, 12-09-2019 12:37 AM
      instead of getting some sleep so I can be rested in the morning, I decided to do some more work.

This gives a general idea of the routing described earlier, unfortunately, this piece is aluminum, and the rest is steel, or else I'd be a step closer to being done.



this picture shows what is one of what will be 2 mounting tabs, one here on the head, and one on the side of the block near the alternator. it also gives a visual representation of how much clearance exists to the coolant temperature sensor, which should be more than adequate to allow for future replacement.



ericjon262 MSG #479, 12-15-2019 09:02 PM
      I now have a functional intake manifold again, the old one was badly warped from the welders, I suspect that they welded it without any pre heat in typical lazy pensacola "professional" attitude. I pre heated the manifold with my casting furnace torch, and was able to weld it without problem. without the pre heat, I'm not sure my welder would have had enough heat to do it. the welds look like crap, I'm going to blame that on the casting having impurities, but it's really because I suck.







I can mount the throttle either way, if hood clearance is an issue, I'll mount it upside down to gain about 1.5" of clearance. which has the added benefit of locating the electrical connector closer to where the wiring will be routed.





ericjon262 MSG #480, 12-17-2019 08:57 PM
      I didn't have much time to work today, so I worked on a smaller project, I tacked these stainless bungs to the stock 3500 rail, the intention is to build a parallel flow setup to provide even fuel pressure to all 6 injectors. if I can remember, I'm going to mail off my decapped LX9 injectors fuel injectors for flow testing. FYI, stock 3500 fuel rails have a very small orifice to feed one fuel rail through, for a stock application, it isn't a problem, it may be a problem for applications making double the power. The two bungs closest to the throttle body in the pictures will be the supplies, the near bungs will be the return lines. I'll fully weld the bungs once I have a proper purge rig to ensure the weld doesn't sugar on the backside.