HANDBRAKE NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR TEST (Page 2/5)
theogre NOV 23, 01:14 AM

quote
Originally posted by Spoon:
I know this is still a hydraulic approach rather than a cable setup but a little imagination and some common tools and no one would know. Yes hydraulic systems can leak down but you only have to pass a park brake test which takes (x) minutes or less.

amazon.com/Hydr...ativeASIN=B07MYZWVY2

Plan (B) More like modern vehicles.
amazon.com/-Sto...ativeASIN=B00QL3JKKQ

Very likely will Not pass inspection in most of EU with BS like above or "line locks" either.

MOT/TÜV rules are more strict then most U.S. States that even have "Safety Inspection." Quoted because is a joke to think they actually work except maybe on cars w/ Major problems for most of the U.S.

Some states have 2 to 5 years between inspections.
NY Shops that "certified" to do NYS Inspections may take wheel or two off a car during inspection but never actually test the service or parking brakes.
Other states have a "brake dino" you drive on then stop to test the service brakes but not the parking brake. The test is such a low speed test nearly all will pass.
If exterior lights simply turn on, you pass in most states. Yet Cops in same states can stop you w/ bad lights. Bad doesn't = Dead/Blown bulbs.

If German Inspection is about same a UK MOT then you must have all factory parts working when the Inspector test each of them. Even HL must have correct light pattern on the test machine or instant fail because many idiots put illegal HID or LED in Halogen HL shells. In many places the Owner/Driver Does Not stay in the car during testing.

If you try to cheat by adjusting so pads drag... may fail for the service brake /w problems. Worse, Driving w/ pads dragging can cause brake fade, brake failure or even a fire getting to/from the inspection or driving anywhere else.
Darthscooby1001 NOV 23, 01:59 AM
Thank you Gents for your support. It would be lengthy to try and reply individually, so please forgive me if I only respond to certain people on this thread. I will have either noted your comment for further investigation or have previously carried out the advice you have given, which again I am very grateful for. I know how this will end…. When I got get the handbrake to pass the test, I will have become the darn expert of Fiero brakes!!! grrrrrr

I would like to state that I have a second Fiero, which I would like to renovate properly and return it to service, but in the meantime, I robbed the discs and pads from it. They were much better than mine, so I would say they are broken and bedded in.

The front callipers were purchased either new or reconditioned in 2017. The rear callipers were reconditioned and bought in October. The piston and lever arm move quite freely with no friction and with new springs easily return to their start point. I have read all I can, especially in the Ogre’s Cave and have adjusted the tension to about 5 clicks max without dragging.

All brakes have been bled and the fluid changed. I believe they now work exactly as intended. It does not pass the test on the rollers…..

I will research what the ‘minimum efficiency rating’ in Germany for a car older than 96 should be, but if there are any technical details apart from the 30* decline for 5 minutes test, I would appreciate them. Thank you.

[This message has been edited by Darthscooby1001 (edited 11-23-2019).]

Joseph Upson NOV 23, 09:29 PM
You should support the rear of the car, remove the rear wheels and actuate the brake levers individually with a wrench, or something appropriate and note the amount of travel of each lever. I recall having a caliper that worked under normal braking, but apparently had some sort of internal failure that rendered the lever ineffective although it appeared to move fine.

I also learned the hard way on a Fiero not to ignore cleaning and lubricating the caliper slides, after realizing from severe uneven pad wear that the caliper slides were sticking. If that is happening, you'll have a firm emergency brake lever feel, but poor emergency brake hold, because only the caliper piston side pad will be moving freely to apply force. On one side I had a pad worn into a ramp/wedge shape and on the other one pad showed considerable wear while the other had near new thickness.

I also found that remanufactured calipers were hit, or miss.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-23-2019).]

PK NOV 24, 12:41 AM
Best of luck in getting this sorted.

I just had a quick peruse of the MOT test rules for hand brake in England. It is minimum 16% efficiency (for Fiero).

I didn't find much else that might be helpful to your plight..... Though did find out that cars made in 1914 or earlier are exempt from handbrake test!!! Which is odd as cars from 1968 and older are exempt from MOT testing.

Can you find someone more sympathetic to the cars age/design to conduct the test? I did note our MOT test allows some wriggle room in terms of interpretation with text such as:

"A gradient tester can be used on vehicles that are not suitable for a parking brake test with the primary brake tester or decelerometer."

So, if deemed "not suitable" for primary brake tester or primary brake tester is out of service..there are other options but completely at discretion of tester.

Will be very interested to know how you solve this, which I'm sure you will. I will report back with my efficiency readings when next MOT test is done.


I personally welcome an MOT test as it is really a minimum test of roadworthiness. There are a lot of things that they do not check and other things that they are only allowed to advise on.

My work ve-hickle recently had a small water leak, invisible from the outside but by removing the entirety of the interior in the back of the car I found a substantial rusted out section around a rear seatbelt anchor point. A massive safety defect but completely invisible and undetectable on an MOT test which allows them to check that the inertia reel functions but not remove panels to inspect. So while valuable it is a bare minimum which some rely on as a complete health check..... Which it most definitely is not.
Will NOV 25, 05:29 PM

quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

You should support the rear of the car, remove the rear wheels and actuate the brake levers individually with a wrench, or something appropriate and note the amount of travel of each lever. I recall having a caliper that worked under normal braking, but apparently had some sort of internal failure that rendered the lever ineffective although it appeared to move fine.

I also learned the hard way on a Fiero not to ignore cleaning and lubricating the caliper slides, after realizing from severe uneven pad wear that the caliper slides were sticking. If that is happening, you'll have a firm emergency brake lever feel, but poor emergency brake hold, because only the caliper piston side pad will be moving freely to apply force. On one side I had a pad worn into a ramp/wedge shape and on the other one pad showed considerable wear while the other had near new thickness.

I also found that remanufactured calipers were hit, or miss.




If the rebuilder assembled one of the calipers with the wrong handed mechanism inside the piston, that parking brake would not work. It's work a check.

Also, I assume that upgrading the brakes to the 11.25" system done fairly often on US Fieros would be a bureaucratic nightmare im Duetschland.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-25-2019).]

Will NOV 25, 05:33 PM

quote
Originally posted by Darthscooby1001:

I will research what the ‘minimum efficiency rating’ in Germany for a car older than 96 should be, but if there are any technical details apart from the 30* decline for 5 minutes test, I would appreciate them. Thank you.




FYI, a 30 degree slope and a 30 percent grade are two VERY different things. A 30% grade is "only" about 16.7 degrees. It's still VERY steep for a car.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-25-2019).]

Darthscooby1001 NOV 28, 06:15 AM
Thanks again guys for your continuing help and advice. A new development has occurred which might explain all the problems I have been having: My pedal is now going easily to the floor! it must be pumped up again to work, then pressing gently, it will sink back down again. I believe this to be the Master Cylinder that has given up, i.e. leaking air into the system, so I have ordered a replacement. The testing garage did say the normal brakes, although passing inspection were not great, so I believe the Master Cylinder has been slowly leaking for some time and I have eventually dislodged it whilst bleeding multiple times. I will update you all when the new one has been fitted. Yes I know about bench bleeding etc.
theogre NOV 28, 12:33 PM

quote
Originally posted by Darthscooby1001:
Thanks again guys for your continuing help and advice. A new development has occurred which might explain all the problems I have been having: My pedal is now going easily to the floor! it must be pumped up again to work, then pressing gently, it will sink back down again. I believe this to be the Master Cylinder that has given up, i.e. leaking air into the system, so I have ordered a replacement. The testing garage did say the normal brakes, although passing inspection were not great, so I believe the Master Cylinder has been slowly leaking for some time and I have eventually dislodged it whilst bleeding multiple times. I will update you all when the new one has been fitted. Yes I know about bench bleeding etc.

Likely because "Pedal Bleeding" can destroy a MC w/ dirt/corrosion problems.
See my Cave, Brake Service and Bleeding MC notes

Replacing a iffy/dead MC may help the parking brake Because you push the pedal down then pull the lever while doing that.
From 87 Owner Manual... (Get full copy at http://www.fieronews.net/fusion/downloads.php )
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE

If you or "MOT" inspector fails to use above direction or have hydraulic problems then likely P-brake will fail to hold at any time not just failed on the machine.
Will DEC 02, 08:46 AM

quote
Originally posted by Darthscooby1001:

I believe this to be the Master Cylinder that has given up, i.e. leaking air into the system, so I have ordered a replacement.



It won't let air into the system because the fluid is under positive pressure, but it can leak around the pressure seal.

If fluid level in the reservoir stays constant, you don't have a leak to the outside world.
theogre DEC 02, 10:57 AM
Depending on exactly what MC Seal(s) are bad...
Most times is Secondary seal(s) bad and leak fluid internally so can't make hydro pressure. No air in the MC.
Primary main seal could do same.
Iffy Primary rear seal can leak fluid "on the floor," let air in, or both. Quick Take-up Section sees little pressure and suck air in thru bad rear seal.

QT valve and seal can "leak" fluid like first 2 but not air. If QT valve is blocked up, Primary Rear can try to suck air because is just a basic "o-ring" and won't handle much pressure or vacuum. (Other piston seals are "Cup" type and must handle full working pressure.)

Can "break" a tank or wreck tank seal(s) but won't cause low/floored pedal unless tank goes dry. Small cracks can hold fluid w/ little or no fluid "on the floor." might only drip very slowly and even then be temperature related.

F'd lines, fittings or combi valve should leak fluid "on the floor" too.