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| Flywheel and 5-Speed Getrag Questions... (Page 2/3) |
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Blacktree
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OCT 08, 11:06 AM
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| quote | | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Hahah, sorry... damn, I thought it was you. Maybe it was Blackrams... sigh. Oh well. But it was a spectacular 5-Speed. Came bolted to the inside of a crate, immaculate. |
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People often confuse our usernames. So that may be the case.
Regarding the flywheel: As mentioned above, you'll need a neutral balance flywheel. The Fidanza ones have neutral balance. So they're good to go.
Edit to add: People keep talking about Fidanza flywheels coming loose. I've had a Fidanza flywheel for about 10 years now. It's been removed and re-installed a couple times (once for an engine swap, once to replace the friction surface). It has never come loose. The aluminum has never "squished". And I don't use any special washers or whatever. Maybe I'm super lucky? Maybe my flywheel was blessed by magical fairies? I dunno...[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-08-2019).]
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pmbrunelle
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OCT 08, 12:27 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Blacktree:
Edit to add: People keep talking about Fidanza flywheels coming loose. I've had a Fidanza flywheel for about 10 years now. It's been removed and re-installed a couple times (once for an engine swap, once to replace the friction surface). It has never come loose. The aluminum has never "squished". And I don't use any special washers or whatever. Maybe I'm super lucky? Maybe my flywheel was blessed by magical fairies? I dunno...
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One instance of "lack of failure" does not constitute proof that a design is "safe" for general public use...
Of course, what is considered "safe" depends on your risk tolerance.
If you're an OEM, 1/10000 parts failing with lethal consequences may be considered a dangerous problem requiring a recall... but your test of one unit isn't likely to show problems if the failure rate is 1/10000.
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pmbrunelle
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OCT 08, 12:51 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Thanks Patrick... so it looks like everyone is either using thin but large washers to help spread out the tension on the aluminum. Is there a plate that can go over it that helps spread it out?
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If Fidanza in your opinion sells scrap (as evidenced by the fact that you're searching for "solutions" to a brand-new flywheel), and you don't know what you're doing (as evidenced by your random guessing at solutions), why don't you ask Fidanza to address your concerns?
If there is indeed a design issue, it makes no sense at all that unqualified end-users attempt to patch the issue... the manufacturer should correct this, if there is a problem.
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Blacktree
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OCT 08, 04:52 PM
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| quote | | Originally posted by pmbrunelle: One instance of "lack of failure" does not constitute proof that a design is "safe" for general public use... |
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People tend to exaggerate the negative. I'm willing to bet the actual failure rates (due to mfgr) are lower than the rumor mill would suggest. I'd also be willing to bet many of the failures are from incorrect installation.
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Patrick
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OCT 08, 05:58 PM
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Seeing as how it was me who first mentioned the possible potential issues with Fidanza aluminum flywheels in this thread, I feel I should add some further comment.
I've been a member of this forum practically since day one. I make extensive use of the Search function here. When I was considering purchasing a Fidanza flywheel for my Formula several years ago, I did my homework and discovered many many reports here of issues with these flywheels working their way loose. I can't believe "incorrect installation" is the reason for all these failures.... especially when a respected forum member with the knowledge and expertise of fieroguru has chimed in on what the problem is and how to help correct it.
| quote | Originally stated by fieroguru:
Aluminum creep is often caused by the hole being too large, the bolt head being too small, and the material thickness being too thin at the bolted attachment. This causes very high localized pressure and room for the material to "flow" into.
If you wanted to run a Fidanza flywheel and address the creep issue, just press some thin steel bushings into the existing holes and leave them about .030" shorter than the thickness of the flywheel. The issue is the bolt holes are way too big, which reduces the area of the material the clamp force is spread against and makes it easier to "flow". The sleeves don't reduce the pressure, but they support the material and eliminate the opening it has to flow into, which will greatly reduce the chance for it to work loose.
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Perhaps Fidanza changed the design of their aluminum flywheels at some point, with one version being less prone to getting loose than the other. I seem to have a vague recollection of this, but if I did read this somewhere/sometime, I've forgotten the finer details.
Remember, I'm just the messenger. I'm certainly not asking anyone to blindly accept what I'm saying without reservation. For anyone who's curiosity about "aluminum creep" has been tweaked, this info is all still in the archives here (as well as posted elsewhere online).[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-08-2019).]
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82-T/A [At Work]
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OCT 09, 02:28 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by Larryinkc:
GM made an axle support bearing kit for the passenger side of the TH 125 transmissions. I have about 5,000 miles on the ones in my Getrag and all is still good. The differential bearings didn't have excessive play but the seals still leaked. Here's the thread.
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Thanks Larry! I appreciate the link!
| quote | Originally posted by Blacktree:
Regarding the flywheel: As mentioned above, you'll need a neutral balance flywheel. The Fidanza ones have neutral balance. So they're good to go.
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Thanks Blacktree, I appreciate it. I think I knew this, but I kept forgetting. When I switched to the 3.1 crank and rods, I must have gone with a neutrally balanced flywheel too. I can't remember, it was so long ago. I did everything on the cheap because at the time, I had very little money. Fiscally speaking, I really was in no position to have a project / fun car since I was living in an apartment at the time. But I want to make sure I get everything I need before parts become largely unavailable.
I assume that even if neutrally balanced, you still want to keep a harmonic balancer on the front, correct? I think I put the old one back, which I know was ghetto, but again... ~15 years ago, I was cutting corners.
| quote | Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
If Fidanza in your opinion sells scrap (as evidenced by the fact that you're searching for "solutions" to a brand-new flywheel), and you don't know what you're doing (as evidenced by your random guessing at solutions), why don't you ask Fidanza to address your concerns?
If there is indeed a design issue, it makes no sense at all that unqualified end-users attempt to patch the issue... the manufacturer should correct this, if there is a problem.
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I think you're definitely misunderstanding, and underestimating me. I apologize if you've taken offense to my questioning (though messages don't convey emotion), or at the very least, you seem a bit edgy.
I actually really like the Fidanza, which is why I'm asking about it. My questions above are what I need to do to the 5-Speed before I put it back, what requirements there are for the Fidanza, and what options I have for a clutch slave.
I'd certainly question your comment about me "not knowing what I'm doing." I know as much, if not more than most of the people on this forum about cars; however, I've taken a hiatus from working on cars for the past 8 years as my career has required me to move every 3-4 years, and I've spent most of my spare time renovating and flipping homes. My goal is to buy everything for my car that I can so I can stuff my storage unit with parts for whenever the time comes in my life that I can get back to working on it. But the car currently sits 1,500 miles from where I live right now.
I'm simply doing my due-diligence... so I apologize if I've upset you by asking about the flywheel. My intent is still to buy it, I just want to make sure if there are additional parts I can buy with it to make it more secure, then I'd hope to do so.
I know that just because a company sells a part, does not mean it's without flaw. I'm reminded of the Holley "Performance" water-pumps that they sold many years ago (through Coltec Industries). It had a "low resistance" plastic impeller. I bought one, and after 6 months of use, the plastic impeller broke free from the shaft, my car overheated on the highway, and the main-bearings fried. It's the reason I had to have my engine rebuilt in the first place. Due-diligence is being responsible.
It's not about the money, it's because I have an emotional attachment to this car. It was my first car. The last thing I want is for a flywheel to fail and go shooting through my transmission and possibly the firewall, destroying the car, chassis, and possibly myself.
I appreciate your responses.[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-09-2019).]
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Dspoeth
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OCT 09, 07:32 PM
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I just finished a fresh rebuild on a 2.8 for racing in chumpcar and went the route of the fidenza flywheel. We added washers and used red loctite. Knock on wood, so far no issues. We ran a total of 12 racing hours at charlotte motor speedway on it and did not experience any issue.
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pmbrunelle
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OCT 09, 08:02 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I think you're definitely misunderstanding, and underestimating me. I apologize if you've taken offense to my questioning (though messages don't convey emotion), or at the very least, you seem a bit edgy.
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I'm not offended by your questioning. I just see that you have no idea what you're getting yourself into... so I'm just pointing out what you don't know before you hurt yourself.
If a water pump dies, the worst thing that happens is you blow a motor. No biggie. If a flywheel comes loose, that's serious stuff. You said it yourself, it can go flying through your back.
You are proposing to redesign the bolted joint between the flywheel and crankshaft. Normally, that kind of work (especially where failure can be deadly) is done by people with engineering training.
From this statement:
| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
Thanks Patrick... so it looks like everyone is either using thin but large washers to help spread out the tension on the aluminum. Is there a plate that can go over it that helps spread it out?
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...either you have never received engineering training, or it is long forgotten.
Underneath the bolt heads, it's compression on the aluminium, not tension. Confusing tension vs. compression is the equivalent of a medical doctor not knowing the difference between blood and urine.
| quote | Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
I'd certainly question your comment about me "not knowing what I'm doing." I know as much, if not more than most of the people on this forum about cars
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Knowing as much or more about cars than most folks on the forum is not a qualification to design a bolted joint.
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If you like the Fidanza flywheel, but aren't sure about its safety, ask Fidanza to address your concerns. Show them whatever failures have occurred, and ask for explanations. If they're a good company, they will either explain to you why there is no problem, or they will realize "oh **** " and address the safety issue for the flywheels already in service.
If Fidanza can't offer customer support/reassurance, then why would you want to send these guys your money? A good company does not leave Joe Average end-users to cobble together safety-critical stuff in their garage.
fieroguru is a special case of end-user. He has mechanical engineering training. That said, copying his fix without understanding is perhaps an unwise action. Again with the medical doctor analogy, if you are not a medical doctor, would you follow a step-by-step procedure written by a doctor to perform surgery on someone?
For information, I didn't feel like doing my homework before purchasing a Fidanza flywheel. Instead, I got a stock replacement flywheel for my Fiero.
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82-T/A [At Work]
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OCT 09, 10:37 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
I'm not offended by your questioning. I just see that you have no idea what you're getting yourself into... so I'm just pointing out what you don't know before you hurt yourself.
If a water pump dies, the worst thing that happens is you blow a motor. No biggie. If a flywheel comes loose, that's serious stuff. You said it yourself, it can go flying through your back.
You are proposing to redesign the bolted joint between the flywheel and crankshaft. Normally, that kind of work (especially where failure can be deadly) is done by people with engineering training.
...either you have never received engineering training, or it is long forgotten.
Underneath the bolt heads, it's compression on the aluminium, not tension. Confusing tension vs. compression is the equivalent of a medical doctor not knowing the difference between blood and urine.
Knowing as much or more about cars than most folks on the forum is not a qualification to design a bolted joint.
********************************************************************************
If you like the Fidanza flywheel, but aren't sure about its safety, ask Fidanza to address your concerns. Show them whatever failures have occurred, and ask for explanations. If they're a good company, they will either explain to you why there is no problem, or they will realize "oh **** " and address the safety issue for the flywheels already in service.
If Fidanza can't offer customer support/reassurance, then why would you want to send these guys your money? A good company does not leave Joe Average end-users to cobble together safety-critical stuff in their garage.
fieroguru is a special case of end-user. He has mechanical engineering training. That said, copying his fix without understanding is perhaps an unwise action. Again with the medical doctor analogy, if you are not a medical doctor, would you follow a step-by-step procedure written by a doctor to perform surgery on someone?
For information, I didn't feel like doing my homework before purchasing a Fidanza flywheel. Instead, I got a stock replacement flywheel for my Fiero. |
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I'm trying to be nice in my response, but you're not being helpful. I've seen several of your posts to multiple members where the very first thing you do is attempt to insult them on your perceived level of their skill, while attempting to elevate yourself. I really think you should know, you're kind of coming off like a jerk in most of your posts. You're making a lot of assumptions about everyone that you respond to. I know your assumption is that everyone on here is either 16 or living in near-poverty, but there are some VERY accomplished people on here. You have CEOs, Federal agents, Cyber Security experts, politicians, even a brain surgeon here on PFF. So I ask, take it down a notch... you have a lot to offer, but you're negating all of that with your attitude.
As for me, I have multiple engineering degrees, and I'd probably say at least half the people on here also have engineering degrees. If you look, I'm information gathering. That's an important step to making a decision. My question was if someone had already designed "a fix" for the problem people have been experiencing. I'm not attempting to re-engineering anything, I'm asking if someone else already has. You may have a lot to offer PFF, but your attitude is a detractor.
| quote | Originally posted by Dspoeth:
I just finished a fresh rebuild on a 2.8 for racing in chumpcar and went the route of the fidenza flywheel. We added washers and used red loctite. Knock on wood, so far no issues. We ran a total of 12 racing hours at charlotte motor speedway on it and did not experience any issue. |
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Thanks, that's what I was thinking as well. I wonder if everyone else here used Loctite on the bolts?
When I replaced the torque converter in my Fiero about 15-20 years ago, I didn't use Loctite and the converter to flywheel bolts started to back out. I learned my lesson. But I'm wondering if the lack of Loctite or thread locker is what's causing most of the issue that others are having.[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 10-09-2019).]
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pmbrunelle
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OCT 09, 11:26 PM
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You've been out of Tech for a while, so I wasn't aware of your distaste for my posts.
I'll stay out of your threads.[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 10-09-2019).]
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