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| GM High Value LZ9 Swap? (Page 1/11) |
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ChuckR
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JUL 07, 08:26 PM
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Hello, I have been searching for my first project car for over a year. I have tossed around all kinds of ideas to myself and a few friends. I wanted a car I can track and drive around, be RWD, independent suspension. I think I have finally settled on doing a Fiero. I grew up in the 80's-90's the Fiero always was one of those cars I loved the look of, just not the performance of. This brings me to my title.
I know there is a lot of documentation on the 3800SC swap, and most are going to say to do that. But looking at engine supply, one can get the same power from the LZ9 NA at 240HP/TQ for less money and lower mileage. I did see a build thread on here for doing a LZ9, but they were changing more than I was thinking of. My thoughts are the LZ9 is the great great grandchild of the 2.8L L44. These should have similar footprints and be a closer direct bolt in. I saw that people were reverting the ECU back to ODBI and thus losing the VVT, I am trying to see the benefit in doing this versus using the entire system motor,ECU, transmission and all from the 06-11 donor . My local U pull lot has these things all over sitting and rotting and can get the entire engine, wire harness, ECU, and trans for less than $700. I feel like I am missing something as to why this isn't a normal swap, other than loss of manual trans, which I think this has same bell as stock so that probably isnt it.
So here are my thoughts on the build I want to do. This car will be a driver that has the occasional outing at the track and autocross.
Start with an 88, since I plan to track the car I want the superior suspension
A full engine trans swap from Impala or such 3.9 LZ9
HP Tuners custom ECU program ODBII. ( I have a friend that has the pro edition so he says he can do it I just need to buy the additional license.)
Vue EPAS
Refresh all suspension to Poly.
I am in the searching mode for the 88 now. I do not have it yet. So if you know of one that needs a home in Indiana please let me know. Thank you all for your amazing materials here such a vast store of knowledge you have shared. It is hard to find exactly what you are looking for there is so much to digest.
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Will
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JUL 08, 08:54 AM
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It just hasn't been as popular. I think it's a great idea. The LZ9 can probably go up to 270 HP with a little work, like a cam swap, but the 3800 will go MUCH higher.
The LZ9 was offered with a stick in the Pontiac G6 GTP in 2006 & 2007.
The front engine mount bracket looks like this:
It bolts to the bottom of the oil pan and attaches to a mount very similar to the stock Fiero engine mount... There should be little to no modification required to get it mounted.
The minivan applications of the LZ9 have a "crossover" style exhaust that has a single outlet to the rear, which will be easier to deal with in a Fiero.
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ChuckR
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JUL 08, 09:21 AM
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I did see that the G6 does offer a single year with this manual, however the transmission i think will be a rare one to find since it is in only 1 model trim for 1 model year. While I would like to have a manual I am ok with having an Auto.
I think I figured out why the build threads I found, only 2 or 3 incomplete info builds, were reverting it back to ODBI. The threads were old and it was when the engines were newer. I do not think HP Tuners had cracked the ECU yet. My eventual goal will be to hit 300 WHP. I know the LZ9 will not be easy to hit that since there is no aftermarket support for this engine, but I think with a decent tune and a centrifugal SC like a HKS can be fit in there with no problem and give that 6-10 PSI boost without stressing the internals to get me to where I want.
I am a noob to more than moderate auto repair experience so I am looking for something to ease into. I do have access to a lathe, mill, etc. So making some parts is not a huge deterrent. I am also looking to keep this a budget friendly build since it is my first ever and if I fail then I will not be out 10k or more. This is what makes the LZ9 so attractive to me. I have no idea if the gearing in the 4L65-E will be good for my wants, I know next to nothing on transmissions. I am certain I will have to have half shafts made to fit, but it would be great if I didn't.
Again I do appreciate any knowledge that is shared. I go to look at a nice 88 GT today after work so I am committing to the Fiero after bouncing everywhere from a C4 Vette to a Miata. None sounded as cool to me as the Classic red headed step child as the Fiero.
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cvxjet
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JUL 08, 12:12 PM
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The 3.9 V6 is a good pick for the Fiero...It is the last iteration of the GM 60* V6....and it is 40-50 lbs lighter than the L44 2.8. If you want more power, you can go with the 3800, but that will ADD weight to the rear of the car. Better choices, in my opinion are the LS4 V8- designed for transverse mounting with the correct bellhousing pattern, or a slightly more exotic choice is the new LV3 4.3L V6.....It is all aluminum so weighs only 300 lbs (70 lbs lighter than the L44) and puts out 285 hp stock....this power is at a low RPM, so it also has the effect of lowering your final drive gear ratio, making that power more effective off the line. It will require a bellhousing adapter.
I have heard a older 4.3 running thru a Fiero 2.8 exhaust muffler and it sounds similar- I consider the L44 thru stock exhaust the best sounding V6...My Father, who was into sports cars back in the 50s and 60s said the only sixes he ever heard that sounded better than my Fiero were the Jag straight six in the E-type and the Maserati sixes.
Although the manual trans that came in the G6 is a relatively rare 6 spd, the only critical spec with manual trans as far as legality/smog is simply "Manual Transmission" so a 4 or 5 spd of any type will work (Legally)......The Automatics are all 50-80 lbs heavier.
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Will
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JUL 08, 01:51 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by ChuckR:
I did see that the G6 does offer a single year with this manual, however the transmission i think will be a rare one to find since it is in only 1 model trim for 1 model year. While I would like to have a manual I am ok with having an Auto. |
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As I said above, there were two model years. The '06 transmissions are frequently available NOS. These two model years of production source ALL the F40 six speed manual transmissions the Fiero community uses. The LZ9 will also bolt directly to the original Fiero V6 manual transmission, which will be fine at that power level as long as you're not one of the people who can break anything.
| quote | Originally posted by ChuckR:
I think I figured out why the build threads I found, only 2 or 3 incomplete info builds, were reverting it back to ODBI. The threads were old and it was when the engines were newer. I do not think HP Tuners had cracked the ECU yet. My eventual goal will be to hit 300 WHP. I know the LZ9 will not be easy to hit that since there is no aftermarket support for this engine, but I think with a decent tune and a centrifugal SC like a HKS can be fit in there with no problem and give that 6-10 PSI boost without stressing the internals to get me to where I want. |
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https://wot-tech.com/index.php
| quote | Originally posted by ChuckR:
I am a noob to more than moderate auto repair experience so I am looking for something to ease into. I do have access to a lathe, mill, etc. So making some parts is not a huge deterrent. I am also looking to keep this a budget friendly build since it is my first ever and if I fail then I will not be out 10k or more. This is what makes the LZ9 so attractive to me. I have no idea if the gearing in the 4L65-E will be good for my wants, I know next to nothing on transmissions. I am certain I will have to have half shafts made to fit, but it would be great if I didn't. |
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A 4L65-E won't work at all. A 4T65E is what you're thinking of.
| quote | Originally posted by cvxjet:
The 3.9 V6 is a good pick for the Fiero...It is the last iteration of the GM 60* V6....and it is 40-50 lbs lighter than the L44 2.8. |
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The aluminum heads are about 25lbs lighter than the iron heads, but the 3900 has extra coolant manifolds and extra "stuff" that make it end up close to the same weight as the 2.8.
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ChuckR
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JUL 08, 02:23 PM
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| quote | | A 4L65-E won't work at all. A 4T65E is what you're thinking of. |
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Yes. Thank you for the correction.
| quote | | https://wot-tech.com/index.php |
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I see they have some items but not really much offered for the 3500/3900 VVT. Since they are only a 2 hour drive from me they might be a great resource to tap and probably have more that is not listed on the website, thank you for the suggestion.
Does anyone have any build threads that would be useful for this swap? If so please share them.
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ChuckR
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JUL 09, 08:50 PM
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Went to look at an 88 GT today. It is an auto with a bit of rust in the trunk corners but everything else looks good. They did an EGR delete and it runs rough until to temp. Window motors need replaced but New ones come with the car. Has the Ocelot exhaust on it, a rebuilt short block. Owner got car from grandpa and just titled it in his name waiting on it to come in the mail. If this is not a hoax (and I believe him) then I will have my Fiero. I will fix the rust in the trunk. Car was garaged for 8 years but not driven. Injectors, fuel regulator, trans fluid, batter, oil sensor, fan relay all new this year. He said still has old gas in it so cleaning that out will be a need. Brakes a soft. Hoping a bleed and flush will fix. I will check to see if calipers are working correctly at that time. I know I am doing a swap on this car in the future but it is great to have a good running one to enjoy until all planning is completed.
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Will
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JUL 10, 02:29 PM
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Joseph Upson did a 3900 swap, but he did a lot of weird mods (turbo, offset ground stroker crank), so you'll have to filter through a lot of extraneous information to figure out what a stock swap looks like.
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ChuckR
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JUL 11, 06:18 AM
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| quote | The 3.9 V6 is a good pick for the Fiero...It is the last iteration of the GM 60* V6....and it is 40-50 lbs lighter than the L44 2.8. If you want more power, you can go with the 3800, but that will ADD weight to the rear of the car. Better choices, in my opinion are the LS4 V8- designed for transverse mounting with the correct bellhousing pattern, or a slightly more exotic choice is the new LV3 4.3L V6.....It is all aluminum so weighs only 300 lbs (70 lbs lighter than the L44) and puts out 285 hp stock....this power is at a low RPM, so it also has the effect of lowering your final drive gear ratio, making that power more effective off the line. It will require a bellhousing adapter.
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The 3.9 being the last iteration of the 6 60 is one of the reasons why I want to do this swap. While I like the idea of the LS4, it is more power than I am looking for, has a higher cost, and is a more involved swap. The 4.3 would be nice but again the cost and difficulties go way up for this set up. I also do not want to add weight to the rear in the likes of the 3800SC. I want to track this car so balance is key. And power for the sake of power is not my main goal. I have seen a lot of Fiero videos of drag strips, and while that is fun I want to carve up road courses.
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ChuckR
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JUL 11, 07:05 AM
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| quote | | Joseph Upson did a 3900 swap, but he did a lot of weird mods (turbo, offset ground stroker crank), so you'll have to filter through a lot of extraneous information to figure out what a stock swap looks like. |
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I did see this build while I was stalking the forum before I signed up. This is one of the builds that I was talking about being switched to ODBI. And the build was done in 07 before HP Tuners cracked the ECU. I did figure out that is why it was being reverted to ODBI. I guess I will have to do a detailed build on just a straight swap when I do it. I am realistically looking at 2 years out from now, so dont hold your breath in suspense. I am still researching so please any other help would be greatly appreciated.
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