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| F40 transmission to 87 GT 2.8 (Page 1/1) |
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bleone
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DEC 14, 05:10 PM
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New to PFF. Some amazing information and knowledge on this site.
Always wanted a Fiero when I was a teenager. Finally got first Fiero this past March. 87 GT with Getrag 5 speed. Project car for my son and me. Having a great time so far with more "minor" projects. The current getrag has what appears to be the typical 3rd gear grind problem. Tried new syncromesh, some improvement but doesn't fix it. Our eventual goal is to swap to a 3800 SC.While I'm relatively handy, I've never done major engine/transmission work. From what I've read, since we want to keep it a manual, we have to upgrade the transmission to an F40 in order to handle the torque of the 3800 SC. To manage costs, I was wondering if it's possible (and if so, has anyone done it, what would it entail) to upgrade the transmission from the getrag to an F40 to start with while keeping the current 2.8 V6.
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J Gunsett
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DEC 15, 09:19 AM
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Just my opinion, I would look at the F23 transaxle. The final gear ratio in the F40 is a little low making first gear worthless unless you are starting to go up a hill. Once again just my opinion but I have the F40 and first gear is almost brand new.
Jack
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fieroguru
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DEC 15, 11:02 AM
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The first option to consider is to switch to the 92-94 HTOB 282 getrag as it is the easiest to swap and stronger than the Fiero 282 getrag (same mounts, axles, shift cables - just need to connect the clutch line, convert the VSS and use Rodney's shifter brackets). It even comes with the same Fiero gear ratios.
The F23 reuses the stock axles, and 5 speed shifter and 1 cable, but will need mounts, custom shift cable, cable bracket, clutch line connection (easy), and convert the VSS.
The F40 will be the most costly as just about everything needs changed. Your 87 should still use the externally balanced flywheel, so you can't use the stock 3.9/F40 flywheel.
The 1st gear ratios between the F23 and F40 are equally low unless you change them. There was a time when I daily drove two 400 hp V8 fieros for about 2 months. One with the F23 and one with the F40 and aside from the butter smooth shifting of the F23, I largely prefer the driving feel and gear ratios of the F40 for high torque applications.
The F40 also has a 3.09 final drive option (stock is 3.55), which helps make every gear longer and makes 6th gear for interstate cruising (about 2000 rpm at 80 mph). I swapped in the 3.09 final drive a couple of summers ago and it further improved the driving feel. The 3.09 isn't an inexpensive upgrade (parts have to imported from Europe), and it likely isn't suited for cars with less than 250 lb-ft of torque, but it is a factory gear set option that no other transverse manual transmission for the Fiero has. It is easily one of the top 5 upgrades I have done with my LS4/F40 Fiero and I would gladly spend the $$$ to do it again.
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msweldon
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DEC 15, 03:40 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by fieroguru:
The first option to consider is to switch to the 92-94 HTOB 282 getrag as it is the easiest to swap and stronger than the Fiero 282 getrag (same mounts, axles, shift cables - just need to connect the clutch line, convert the VSS and use Rodney's shifter brackets). It even comes with the same Fiero gear ratios.
The F23 reuses the stock axles, and 5 speed shifter and 1 cable, but will need mounts, custom shift cable, cable bracket, clutch line connection (easy), and convert the VSS.
The F40 will be the most costly as just about everything needs changed. Your 87 should still use the externally balanced flywheel, so you can't use the stock 3.9/F40 flywheel.
The 1st gear ratios between the F23 and F40 are equally low unless you change them. There was a time when I daily drove two 400 hp V8 fieros for about 2 months. One with the F23 and one with the F40 and aside from the butter smooth shifting of the F23, I largely prefer the driving feel and gear ratios of the F40 for high torque applications.
The F40 also has a 3.09 final drive option (stock is 3.55), which helps make every gear longer and makes 6th gear for interstate cruising (about 2000 rpm at 80 mph). I swapped in the 3.09 final drive a couple of summers ago and it further improved the driving feel. The 3.09 isn't an inexpensive upgrade (parts have to imported from Europe), and it likely isn't suited for cars with less than 250 lb-ft of torque, but it is a factory gear set option that no other transverse manual transmission for the Fiero has. It is easily one of the top 5 upgrades I have done with my LS4/F40 Fiero and I would gladly spend the $$$ to do it again.
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What FieroGuru said...
The only thing I could add is the F23 with the metric bellhousing, although far cheaper and more readily available, has a pretty low final drive at 3.94 which many higher tq/hp applications have stated is a little too low YMMV, literally. If industrious you could obtain a late 2000's F23 with the 3.63 FDR and swap the metric bellhousing on for probably the best ratio'd F23 available, see JustinBart's thread on his F23. That's probably the best setup short of the regeared F40 that fieroguru mentioned above. Justin and Jncomutt proved the F23 can take quite a beating despite its lower rated max tq... but we haven't seen the upper limit of the F40 either. (Joseph Upson's may have been previously damage from the accident he pulled his from.) Just my observations....
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bleone
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DEC 22, 10:13 AM
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Wow, thank you. Excellent information and recommendations.
"The first option to consider is to switch to the 92-94 HTOB 282 getrag as it is the easiest to swap and stronger than the Fiero 282 getrag (same mounts, axles, shift cables - just need to connect the clutch line, convert the VSS and use Rodney's shifter brackets). It even comes with the same Fiero gear ratios."
I really like this idea the most as it easily allows us to stage the changes instead of having to do them all at once, which also fits better with our budget.
I've spent a little time trying to search for a 92-94 HTOB getrag, but I can't seem to easily locate one that's identified as such. I've found some references to it being the manual transmission in a 92-94 Cavalier with the 3.1L V6, but that is referenced differently (6-191). Is there an easy way to locate these? Anything advice on what to look for/avoid when buying one?
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Raydar
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DEC 22, 11:07 AM
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| quote | Originally posted by bleone:
I've spent a little time trying to search for a 92-94 HTOB getrag, but I can't seem to easily locate one that's identified as such. I've found some references to it being the manual transmission in a 92-94 Cavalier with the 3.1L V6, but that is referenced differently (6-191). Is there an easy way to locate these? Anything advice on what to look for/avoid when buying one? |
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The search criteria appear to be correct. Look for a reference to "New Venture Gear T-550" - or similar - as that's what it's known as, even though it's an "evolved 282".
I've got one in my 4.9 car. It's been fairly bulletproof, so far. (I'll edit in a link to my install, later. Have to correct some info, first, if Cliff will un-archive it.)
Realize that if you install it in a Fiero, you will need to use the Cavalier clutch assembly. The assembled height of the Fiero clutch is ~3.8" too tall.[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-22-2018).]
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fieroguru
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DEC 22, 11:23 AM
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bleone
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DEC 26, 06:23 PM
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I decided to have my son do some leg work/research and he sent me the link below - which based on the car model and year, sounds like it matches what we are looking for...but again it doesn't have the same naming convention or numbers, or say "HTOB getrag", etc. (what I believe Raydar was saying about search criteria being valid). Seems like he ended up in the same list/type of possibilities that I did (the 6-191 for 3.1L). The links from fieroguru helped fill in some details, but since we haven't ever done any transmission work we're still not clear exactly what we're looking for - or if we're finding what we need. So I apologize if I'm basically asking the same question again, perhaps in a slightly different way, but I really don't want to order a transmission that won't fit...
94 Cavalier 3.1L Manual Transmission (https://www.carmonkeys.com/1994-CHEVROLET-CAVALIER-Transmission-Transaxle-Manual-Transmission-6-191-3-1L-5-Years-Warranty)
With Rodney Dickman's brackets and converting the VSS, would this work with the current stock 2.8L V6?
Again, sorry if I'm asking the same question, just trying to learn what I need to know to do this right the first time having never done transmission work before.
Thank you!
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bleone
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DEC 26, 06:30 PM
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| quote | Originally posted by Raydar:
The search criteria appear to be correct. Look for a reference to "New Venture Gear T-550" - or similar - as that's what it's known as, even though it's an "evolved 282".
I've got one in my 4.9 car. It's been fairly bulletproof, so far. (I'll edit in a link to my install, later. Have to correct some info, first, if Cliff will un-archive it.)
Realize that if you install it in a Fiero, you will need to use the Cavalier clutch assembly. The assembled height of the Fiero clutch is ~3.8" too tall.
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Sorry for my lack of knowledge here - what constitutes a "clutch assembly"? Clutch, pressure plate, flywheel? Anything else? Not all of those? Thanks!
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