California Dreamin (3800SC Manual Swap) (Page 6/6)
Madathlon DEC 18, 01:25 PM
Yes, Very true, if you happen to know someone and pass you semi-okay for a bit. But as I said before I find doing ghost mods a far better choice. But I also like the looks of the V6 in mine and after changing out plugs just once I would be hell bent of trying to do them in some hokey V8 modded Fiero.

I still cant get the center plug on the far side out.. Aggg Just thinking about it drives me Nutters.


quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


Yes, 100%.

When I spoke with WCF two years ago we talked about V8 swaps, and yeah, the answer is you need to use a "RWD LS," not an LS4. Plenty of RWD LSs with a manual, no FWD ones.

At the same time, I spoke with the referee program's norcal regional supervisor last year (he's a friend of a friend) to talk about another swap, and he was *very clear* that a Fiero with an LS and a manual transmission is a non-starter in California. The problem, as he put it, is there is no way to properly configure the exhaust to comply. That was *his* stance. But, as Rick pointed out pass or fail is 100% in the hands of the guy that does your inspection... and that goes BOTH ways. You may find your totally non-compliant car drives away with a BAR sticker, and you may find your 99% compliant car fails for no good reason. My takeaway from the convo with the supervisor was that if I LS'd a Fiero and the ref failed it, I would have zero recourse - the supervisor wouldn't help out.

What I personally suspect is that WCF "knows someone" who passes their cars. My concern would be what happens on that second inspection. I have NOTHING to back this up with, but it sure does seem like WCF gets away with things nobody should be able to.

To that end, I really think the 3.9l+F40 is a good option, but so would be the Saab B284 (or one of the derivatives) and an F40. I doubt the ref could tell a Saab 2.8l with single cam phasing from a Cadillac 3.0 with dual cam phasing. Just saying.

Also, Rick is (of course) spot on about the manual transmission requirements. The reason I was talking to a ref was because I wanted to put a 1994 transverse engine longitudinally into a 1985 car. Completely different transmissions. The BAR does not care about orientation or model numbers or anything like that. In the documentation they use to determine valid engine/transmission combos, it doesn't indicate orientation.



------------------
Mark Silva
1987 GT 2.8 V6 5 Speed manual
"The Road trip called life starts with a flat tire and a missing jack"

Rickady88GT DEC 18, 01:43 PM

quote
Originally posted by Madathlon:

Yes, Very true, if you happen to know someone and pass you semi-okay for a bit. But as I said before I find doing ghost mods a far better choice. But I also like the looks of the V6 in mine and after changing out plugs just once I would be hell bent of trying to do them in some hokey V8 modded Fiero.

I still cant get the center plug on the far side out.. Aggg Just thinking about it drives me Nutters.




After a smog ref certifies the swap, simple smog checks are used from then. So basically it is a tailpipe test and a gas cap check. The visual inspection typically will not fail you unless you clearly have changed the smog related components, like for example, headers, turbo, supercharger and missing smog components.
Notorio DEC 18, 06:18 PM
PLEASE NOTE: I'm starting a separate post on this side topic of 'Ghost mods.' Starting 22 Dec please make your 'Ghost mods' comments in the new posting. Thank you.

OK, let us abandon the original quest and instead consider potential 'Ghost' mods which must not degrade smog performance 'too much' and arouse suspicion:

1) Semi-roller rockers, 1.6 ratio
2) Port & polish intakes
3) Dawg-type mod to intake and Darrel Morse-type larger bore throttle body
4) Ported exhaust logs
5) Ported Y-pipe
6) The 3.4L push rod short-block (but this is a fairly expensive one)
7) Rodney's power pulley
8) A bit higher CR pistons?
9) Mild cam?
10) Camaro 17# injectors (to feed all of above)?
11) ??

Let the debate begin

[This message has been edited by Notorio (edited 12-22-2018).]

Madathlon DEC 19, 11:46 AM
Those are all good mods, some I am doing myself with a new engine for my 87. And a couple I didn't even know about, so sweet thanks for the tips. I'm also decking the block and heads, having or buying a ceramically coated exhaust system. But let us be realistic, we will never pull 300hp from the stock family block in California. But even a few more pounds of torque will make some of us very happy. Where I live there a lot of mountain travel and being able to claim up with only dropping one gear would be nice.

Besides even a Stock V6 Fiero is still fun to drive!


quote
Originally posted by Notorio:

OK, let us abandon the original quest and instead consider potential 'Ghost' mods which must not degrade smog performance 'too much' and arouse suspicion:

1) Semi-roller rockers, 1.6 ratio
2) Port & polish intakes
3) Dawg-type mod to intake and Darrel Morse-type larger bore throttle body
4) Ported exhaust logs
5) Ported Y-pipe
6) The 3.4L push rod short-block (but this is a fairly expensive one)
7) Rodney's power pulley
8) A bit higher CR pistons?
9) Mild cam?
10) Camaro 17# injectors (to feed all of above)?
11) ??

Let the debate begin



------------------
Mark Silva
1987 GT 2.8 V6 5 Speed manual
"The Road trip called life starts with a flat tire and a missing jack"

thesameguy DEC 19, 01:16 PM

quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


It is impossible to legally transplant ANY v8 into a Fiero. By the letter of the law, the exhaust system all the way back to the cats must be used and remain unmodified. Some of the LS engines have more than 2 cats. Keep that in mind when you figure out were the exhaust system will be when it is sitting in the Fiero unmodified? So, that is why smog refs use discretionary decision-making to make sense of things. And this is also the reason some refs will pass a conversion and another wont. This same discretionary decision-making process is used throughout the swap certification concerning ECM, BCM, TCM and evap conversions.
Think about it, there is not a single rear wheel drive engine that can pass certification in a Fiero because of the exhaust system requirements. AND practically all front wheel drive engines are impossible to pass for the same reason. The cat would stick out like a trailer hitch. The ONLY reason we can legally swap ANY engine in a Fiero is because the ref either turns a blind eye to indiscretions or the ref uses common sense and allows us to bend the rules a little.



That's all true of OBDII engines, but not pre-OBDII engines. The exhaust requirements for pre-1996 engines is far more flexible - you only need to maintain "approximate" cat placement. So, yeah, you're totally hosed on LS engines (and even Vortecs!) but an SBC or Cadillac swap should work fine. But again - should, because as you note the refs have a lot of discretion. They can fail you because you looked at them funny, or pass you because they like your smile. The 1994->1985 swap included a substantial exhaust mod (obviously, going transverse to longitudinal) and it wasn't even part of the discussion. The supervisor said "no problem, legal" on the phone, and the ref's only complaint about my swap was that I hadn't gotten power steering working.


Rickady88GT DEC 19, 02:39 PM

quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


That's all true of OBDII engines, but not pre-OBDII engines. The exhaust requirements for pre-1996 engines is far more flexible - you only need to maintain "approximate" cat placement. So, yeah, you're totally hosed on LS engines (and even Vortecs!) but an SBC or Cadillac swap should work fine. But again - should, because as you note the refs have a lot of discretion. They can fail you because you looked at them funny, or pass you because they like your smile. The 1994->1985 swap included a substantial exhaust mod (obviously, going transverse to longitudinal) and it wasn't even part of the discussion. The supervisor said "no problem, legal" on the phone, and the ref's only complaint about my swap was that I hadn't gotten power steering working.



I am unaware of OBD1 having allowable exhaust system changes or exemptions. I have done 2 OBD1 certifications, but the end result was the same as the OBD2 certs. The ref allowed the reasonable modifications to the exhaust system.
Without this common sense discretion, engine swaps in Fieros would be extremely rare.
But for example a 1991 Corvette TPI, required 2 cats to pass cert. The stock cats ,not the smaller after market universal cats. Where can I put 2 cats and a sufficient exhaust muffler? Yes it can be done, but at the cost of loosing the trunk. My LS4 OBD2 has a real Fieros trunk.
Then add to the mix that GM used smog pumps (air injection) in the exhaust manifolds and even down line by the cats. That requires the air pump as well. Space is VERY limited for any V8 swap, but the exhaust requirements for OBD1 engines are not alway smaller, simpler or easier than OBD2. And the air injection is on v6 and i4 engines as well.
My 3.5 LX5 OBD2 swap used air injection, but had an electric air injection pump that I could locate anywhere close to the engine but did not have to be mounted to the engine.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 12-19-2018).]

Madathlon DEC 19, 02:47 PM
While you might get away with an Older OBD1 V8 you only end up with a chance of passing Ref. That's a lot of maybe and hopes to pin on a project that may not pass. And in many cases once failed it will never pass no matter what later. IF your willing and have the extra money to spend on a mod that may get your car barred from road use ever again. go for it. Myself will stick to mods that allow me to keep my car on the road.

------------------
Mark Silva
1987 GT 2.8 V6 5 Speed manual
"The Road trip called life starts with a flat tire and a missing jack"

Rickady88GT DEC 19, 03:03 PM
I forgot to mention that at one time (may have changed by now but I am not sure) California did not even allow Federal emissions equipped vehicles to be swapped. A Federal VIN# was an automatic fail during the very first step in the certification process. They would not even look at the engine after seeing that it was Federal.
thesameguy DEC 19, 04:12 PM

quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

I forgot to mention that at one time (may have changed by now but I am not sure) California did not even allow Federal emissions equipped vehicles to be swapped. A Federal VIN# was an automatic fail during the very first step in the certification process. They would not even look at the engine after seeing that it was Federal.



Yeah, that's done. Pretty sure that evaporated with the "imported vehicle" fee they used to charge for bringing Federal cars into the state. Courts tossed that out along with any "discrimination" against used Federal vehicles. There are still restrictions - you can't fit a California car with a Federal engine, but you can fit a Federal car with a California engine. Basically, you can only go tighter, not looser. As you'd expect...

Your point about TPI engines is spot on. You still need to maintain the *quantity* of cats, but you have some leeway in placement. Here are the official guidelines:

Exhaust System - All exhaust after-treatment devices (catalytic converters, Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF), Diesel Oxidation
Catalysts (DOC), Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR), etc.) the donor vehicle was certified to use must be present and
positioned under the vehicle in the same linear position within the exhaust stream as measured from the exhaust manifold
outlet. If the device is integrated with the exhaust manifold, it must remain that way. Tolerances for this measurement as are
follows:
a. On the close-coupled end (nearest the engine), within 6 inches, and no closer than the stock configuration
b. On the other devices (rear catalyst, DPF, DOC, SCR, etc.) within 12 inches of the stock configuration
No other exhaust system changes are allowed, unless they occur downstream of the last

Nobody knows offhand how far any given cat is from any given engine, so as long as you maintain the spirit, you're usually pretty safe IME.

FWIW, the engine guidebook is here:

https://bar.ca.gov/pdf/Smog..._Reference_Guide.pdf

under Appendix E. 1.10.2 is also useful for the specialty constructed vehicle information.
Rickady88GT DEC 19, 04:27 PM

quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


Yeah, that's done. Pretty sure that evaporated with the "imported vehicle" fee they used to charge for bringing Federal cars into the state. Courts tossed that out along with any "discrimination" against used Federal vehicles. There are still restrictions - you can't fit a California car with a Federal engine, but you can fit a Federal car with a California engine. Basically, you can only go tighter, not looser. As you'd expect...

Your point about TPI engines is spot on. You still need to maintain the *quantity* of cats, but you have some leeway in placement. Here are the official guidelines:

Exhaust System - All exhaust after-treatment devices (catalytic converters, Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF), Diesel Oxidation
Catalysts (DOC), Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR), etc.) the donor vehicle was certified to use must be present and
positioned under the vehicle in the same linear position within the exhaust stream as measured from the exhaust manifold
outlet. If the device is integrated with the exhaust manifold, it must remain that way. Tolerances for this measurement as are
follows:
a. On the close-coupled end (nearest the engine), within 6 inches, and no closer than the stock configuration
b. On the other devices (rear catalyst, DPF, DOC, SCR, etc.) within 12 inches of the stock configuration
No other exhaust system changes are allowed, unless they occur downstream of the last

Nobody knows offhand how far any given cat is from any given engine, so as long as you maintain the spirit, you're usually pretty safe IME.

FWIW, the engine guidebook is here:

https://bar.ca.gov/pdf/Smog..._Reference_Guide.pdf

under Appendix E. 1.10.2 is also useful for the specialty constructed vehicle information.


Thanks for the info. I gave you a + rating.