Q's on Clutch Replacement Methods (Page 1/2)
Formula Owner AUG 09, 03:12 PM
I need to replace the clutch on my Formula soon. It wont slip while in gear, but if you make a bad shift with a lot of slippage, it will keep on slipping. So it's time is near. I've done the research, and there seems to be three main ways it's done.

Method 1 - Drop the cradle and engine and transaxle.

Method 2 - Tilt the cradle (aka, the Fiero Factory method)

Method 3 - Support the engine from above, and drop just the cradle (aka, the FSM method)

I'm trying to decide on which method to use. I think I know which one will work best for me, but I want to clarify some things first.

Method 1 - After you get the cradle w/engine & tranny on the floor, how do you separate the tranny from the engine? Photos I've seen appear to have a lot of stuff (like exhaust) in the way. Only one strut would have to be removed. This method almost requires a lift or cherry picker. People HAVE done it with just floor jacks and jack stands, but it was much harder.

Method 2 - Once you get the cradle tilted, and it's at the point where the tranny is to be removed, there's no way to use a jack, right? The cradle is in the way. This sounds like it might work, but only if you have two people available to manhandle the tranny. I've read that the Getrag weighs 90lbs. That's a decent chunk of weight. I think I would have a lot of trouble getting that out by myself, and getting it back in (while aligning things) would be impossible. Both struts have to be removed.

Method 3 - This method, which is the method specified the 88 FSM, WOULD allow the use of a jack to maneuver the tranny, right? This method would require a engine support bar. Both struts have to be removed.

I'm leaning toward method 3, as I also want to replace my oil pan & gasket (oil pan is bent, and I think it leaks). If I understand the pros & cons of each method, this one would be the best for me. Method 1 would be a lot more effort, as I'd need to do a bunch of work not needed for methods 2 & 3. Like, remove the decklid, disconnect & drain the cooling system, disconnect the wiring, the throttle cable, the battery, and relocate the A/C compressor. I would also need to buy a cherry picker. The only advantages over methods 2 & 3 would be that the exhaust could be left fully intact, and only one strut need be removed. Method 3 would require me to buy an engine support bar, but it would be worth it, I think, to be able to use a jack on the transaxle.

BTW, I had a shop replace the clutch once (I had just moved to a new city, and was living in an apartment), and they used method 3.

[This message has been edited by Formula Owner (edited 08-09-2018).]

Formula Owner AUG 09, 05:38 PM
BTW, I'm shocked at how cheap stock clutch kits are. A LUK kit (mentioned elsewhere here as a good kit for a stock engine) is only $61.89 from Rock Auto. The "cost" of a clutch replacement is almost all labor, even it's me doing the labor.
thesameguy AUG 10, 05:44 AM
I came here to post the same thread! My clutch kersploded so the car is parked. Doing the Luk clutch, need to re-seal the oil pan too. I'm planning on doing a light flywheel at the same time because, you know, otherwise it would just be a simple, inexpensive repair. I think I ended up liking the Fidanza option there.

I don't want to drop the whole cradle mostly because I'd prefer to keep the cooling system intact having *just* redone it last year. I'm leaning towards the FSM method as well, and was hoping for pointers on using a support bar. I have a generic one I use for FWD work, but I'm not sure if/how to employ it on the FIero.

I haven't looked much into the tilt method, but based on what you're describing one thing I've found helpful for sliding transmissions in and out is dowels. Get two long bolts similar to the ones used to hold the engine to the transmission and hack the heads off. Slot the ends so they can be turned with a screwdriver. Then screw them into the engine or trans (whichever side is threaded) and use them to help you guide the two back together. This has worked for me on countless FWD transmissions, manual and automatic alike as long as you have some non-blind points to use. I've honestly never looked on the Fiero to see if that'd work, but if it does that would be my approach.
Formula Owner AUG 10, 09:30 AM
The tilt method is the fastest if you're just replacing a clutch, but it requires another set or two of strong hands. The only help I have is my wife and daughter, so this isn't an option for me.

Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I'm going with the FSM method. I like the idea of not having to disconnect everything. I've read through a few writeups of method 1, and there are just SO many little things that have to be disconnected. I can't imagine what it would be like on a modern car.

I like the dowel idea. I'm going to use that if I can. Anyone know the size & thread of the bolts that hold the transaxle to the engine?
Dennis LaGrua AUG 10, 09:57 AM
We've always dropped the cradle down to replace Fiero transmissions but it requires disconnecting the harness, water, fuel lines, struts, crossover pipe and cradle bolts. The FSM method sounds easier but to use that method the exhaust, left strut, hub knuckle, tie rod, linkage, slave cylinder and cradle must be disconnected. Then you are faced with realigning a heavy cradle to the mounts upon reassembly.
Although we've never tried it the tilt back method sounds easiest. The transmission will be removed through the left wheel house and it can be pulled away with one person using a simple chassis jack below. Don't know the weight of the Getrag or Muncie but I'll guess its around 100 lbs.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-10-2018).]

Formula Owner AUG 10, 10:14 AM

quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:We've always dropped the cradle down to replace Fiero transmissions but it requires disconnecting the harness, water, fuel lines, struts, crossover pipe and cradle bolts. The FSM method sounds easier but to use that method the exhaust, left strut, hub knuckle, tie rod, linkage, slave cylinder and cradle must be disconnected. Then you are faced with realigning a heavy cradle to the mounts upon reassembly.


With method 1 (dropping the cradle with engine & transaxle), you still have remove all that stuff, except the exhaust.


quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:Although we've never tried it the tilt back method sounds easiest. The transmission will be removed through the left wheel house and it can be pulled away with one person using a simple chassis jack below.


But with the tilt method, wouldn't the cradle be in the way of using a jack?


quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:Don't know the weight of the Getrag or Muncie but I'll guess its around 100 lbs.


I've read 90lbs.
computer_engineer AUG 12, 05:28 PM
I used method two...tilting the cradle. The reason I chose this method, was that most of the work, I had to do myself. But I ran into a lot just getting to the clutch. Yes, you have to disconnect a lot of stuff, but you will need to do that regardless which method you choose. The blower tubes on the alternator and coil will need to come out. The cruise control server and vacuum canister...the coolant lines off of the thermostat, vacuum lines near the dog-bone, shifter cables, brackets, the clutch slave, and probably the exhaust Y. I went ahead and removed the AC compressor, and ended up taking the headers off due to a crack on one of the tubes, and even dropped the cat and muffler, to make getting at things easier.

Mine is an 87GT 5 Speed - your mileage may vary.

fieroguru AUG 12, 05:51 PM
I once pulled a getrag 5 speed in a rental house in FL using only a floor jack as a lifting device.... wan't a fun experience, but I wasn't going to tow the car back to IL.

I prefer to use option #3. It ends up being much less work as you don't need to touch the harness, coolant hoses, A/C, or fuel lines. If it is an 88, leave the struts and upright in place, disconnect the lateral links and trailing link from the upright to seperate the cradle. This keeps you from messing with the brakes hoses (cables will need to be disconnected at the calipers).

I made the support bar from some 2" x 1/8 wall pipe. The side pieces were fabbed up so one end has a tab that rests on the upper frame rail. The rear portion has a bolt that slides into the stock hole in the upper strut tower.


quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:





The hardest part is reinstalling the transmission and getting it properly lined up. Your arms will get tired holding the transmission in awkward position very fast. especially when it is an F40 that weights about 125 lbs.

If you have one, use a cherry picker to lift the transmission back into place. Get the chain setup so the transmission is balanced and level, set the transmission on a creeper to get it under the car, then pull it up and into place with the cherry picker:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-12-2018).]

Formula Owner AUG 12, 10:22 PM

quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I once pulled a getrag 5 speed in a rental house in FL using only a floor jack as a lifting device.... wasn't a fun experience, but I wasn't going to tow the car back to IL.

I prefer to use option #3. It ends up being much less work as you don't need to touch the harness, coolant hoses, A/C, or fuel lines.


That's what I thought, too.


quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:If it is an 88, leave the struts and upright in place, disconnect the lateral links and trailing link from the upright to separate the cradle. This keeps you from messing with the brakes hoses (cables will need to be disconnected at the calipers).


Doesn't the driv side strut get in the way of removing the transaxle?


quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I made the support bar from some 2" x 1/8 wall pipe. The side pieces were fabbed up so one end has a tab that rests on the upper frame rail. The rear portion has a bolt that slides into the stock hole in the upper strut tower.


Impressive DIY skills. I'm just going to buy an engine support bar off Amazon. I figure one job will more than pay for it.


quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
The hardest part is reinstalling the transmission and getting it properly lined up. Your arms will get tired holding the transmission in awkward position very fast. especially when it is an F40 that weights about 125 lbs.

If you have one, use a cherry picker to lift the transmission back into place. Get the chain setup so the transmission is balanced and level, set the transmission on a creeper to get it under the car, then pull it up and into place with the cherry picker:


Would a cherry picker make the job much easier than using a floor jack? I haven't been able to justify buying a cherry picker yet, but this could do it.

Thanks, fieroguru.
thesameguy AUG 13, 12:42 PM
I have a support beam, but couldn't figure out how to employ it here... The strut towers are too far away from the center of the motor. I think I'd need to come up with some sort of structure to rest it on further forwards, but what's the "rest point" near the rear window?

Cherry picker + support beam works well on FWD cars (that plus the dowels is my method) so if I can figure out how/where to place the beam, I think I'm set.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 08-13-2018).]