Stronger Spindle based 88 Front bearings (Page 1/4)
msweldon AUG 03, 03:08 PM
Quick Summary: Rodney Dickman is no longer planning to bring his rebuildable 88 bearings to production. Chime in if you're interested in WCF providing a rebuildable spindle based hub/bearing setup for the front 88 fiero suspension. Chris stated that he has a solution on the shelf but just hasn't brought it to market for fear of lack of interest.

Details:
While finding out from Rodney Dickman over the phone as to why he is no longer selling his rebuildable front 88 bearings I have been looking around for another solution. As many of us old time fiero owners know, It's not that the OEM 88 bearings are 'bad', it's just that they were never made to take the abuse from autocross or HDPE, etc... with modern compound tires as well. For a spirited daily driver the OEM bearings do pretty well, probably lasting 80K+ miles and further proportional to the care and driving style used on the car. But if you start autox'ing or tracking the 88's the sealed front bearings start to show their inadequacies. OEM replacements are no longer available and junkyards are getting sparse.. Forget aftermarket like eBearing, etc...

Rodney Dickman has attempted to address the daily use failings of the 88 sealed bearings by offering a tapered bearing OEM level replacement with great success for daily driven vehicles however some autox'ing / tracked fiero's quickly found that some of these were not capable of track abuse. Then again he 'never' intended these to be track capable either.

I've looked high and low looking at some of the great research done by Steven Snyder on this as well as going from spindle to spindle car to car in a couple of junkyards, online, and aftermarket. Not much found in the junkyard realm. Very few bearings are even close to diminutive size of the 88 sealed front bearings or spindle/upright/knuckle.

I've had some moderate success finding candidates in the aftermarket from C5/C6 modular uprights, Coleman spindle conversions, to Wilwood spindles, to some tube chassis billet uprights.... unfortunately some either push the offset unacceptably further out, no bueno, or the cost of admission is to high.. the cheapest aftermarket solution carries an entry price of ~$1000.

I called Chris at WCF to see if he had ever addressed this issue even though he has no offering as such on his website. He stated, from what I interpreted over the phone, that he had a recessed spindle conversion solution, similar to the 84-87s, still maintains the 88 offset, sitting on his shelf but had not brought it to market. He asked me to see if I could drum up enough interest in such a solution and if so he'd bring it to market.

For those of you who don't know, the spindle solution as implemented on the pre 88 front suspension might be less adequate than the 88's overall but their spindle bearings can go to hell and back and come back smiling and are rebuildable when they finally give up.

So, if you have any questions or if you're interested in seeing him build these.. chime in..

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 08-04-2018).]

Patrick AUG 03, 05:38 PM

quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

For those of you who don't know, the spindle solution as implemented on the pre 88 front suspension might be less adequate than the 88's overall but their spindle bearings can go to hell and back and come back smiling and are rebuildable when they finally give up.



Okay... we may as well hear the downside(s) right off the bat.

msweldon AUG 03, 06:37 PM
I knew that line was going to draw flak....

Subjectively...
Having autocrossed both an 87GT vs 88GT 20 years ago, stock for stock, or both moderately upgraded the two were relatively on par with one another, except for the elevated kickback of the pre 88s, until you pushed the car to the limit and beyond where the 88 began to show its advantages.

Technically..
Elimination of the steering damper assembly
30% shorter spindle length (90 vs 64 mm)
30% shorter scrub radius (49 to 35 mm)
20% reduction in king pin angle (7.5 to 6 degrees)
20% longer upper control arm length (177 to 214.2 mm)
25% longer lower control arm length (280 to 350 mm)
Larger stabilizer bar (22mm to 28mm)
12% shorter turning radius (11.4 to 10.2 m)

It's still not perfect.. needs more static caster and camber/camber gain for track use, has a poor motion ratio with respect damper/spring location on the lower arm, and the biggest Achilles heel is the bearings by far.

Not trying to turn this into another 84-87 vs 88 face off.. just trying to drum up support for another product to extend the lives and enjoyment of our fieros...

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 08-03-2018).]

pmbrunelle AUG 03, 09:33 PM
This kind of project is similar to the GT fastback taillights...

A unique yet necessary part for Fieros using these parts... valuable, but not quite enough yet.

Cannibalism among 88 Fieros will suffice for a while to supply demand. As the supply thins out, prices for these essential parts will rise.

When the prices rise to GT fastback tailight costs, then there would be a decent (for Fiero parts) business case for such a project.

If you have higher selling prices (say $500 / pair) because the market can absorb it, then you can more easily build quality into the parts.

Prices are not currently so high, so I don't think it's yet the time for a wheel bearing project.

Two years ago, when I purchased myself a Fiero, I chose an 84-87 notchback to avoid these parts availability issues. Parts unavailability is the biggest downside (a greater downside than suspension geometry differences) possible IMO, as it can leave a car undriveable.

However, for a newcomer looking to buy a Fiero, if the bearing supply situation is stable, then the 88 model may be reconsidered; important for the long-term survival of 88 Fieros.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 08-04-2018).]

cvxjet AUG 03, 09:48 PM
I almost switched my 85 to an 88 front suspension- Even bought the coil-over conversion....What stopped me was the problem with the bearings.......I have always preferred the regular spindle and separate bearings design of the all older cars- I understand the simplified manufacturing/maintenance of the self-contained bearings...But for us do-it-yourselfers who own old cars we try to keep going, the bearing setup of the early cars is far better (Plus you get to pack the bearings while getting grease all over yourself!)

This kind of improvement would be a homerun in my opinion for the 88ers...(And a tip of the hat to Rodney for making the effort to solve this problem- even if it did not work out well)
Larryinkc AUG 03, 10:15 PM
I have an 88 and would definitely be interested in a set of better front wheel bearings. I had planned on getting a pair of Rodneys rebuildable front bearings, I wasnt aware that he is no longer selling them.
George P Wood AUG 03, 11:50 PM
I was planning on purchasing a pair of Rodney's rebuildable front bearings also.
Definitely interested in a replacement.
George P Wood AUG 03, 11:54 PM
I was planning on purchasing a pair of Rodney's rebuildable front bearings also.
Definitely interested in a replacement.
msweldon AUG 04, 04:22 PM
bump
Dennis LaGrua AUG 04, 04:32 PM
I just looked on ebay and the original 88 front bearing hubs are for sale. The Delco advantage and other brands are available.
Whats this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wh...kw=Pontiac+Fiero+fro nt+bearing+hubs+88&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313
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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 08-04-2018).]